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Phosferrax's fraud Zatanna MU chart

Phosferrax

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Some numbers that you may or not agree with. I'll probably disagree with them depending on what day of the week it is, but the forums are boring lately so I'll keep myself entertained with this.

Ares: 5-5
Aquaman: 3-7
Bane: 7-3
Batgirl: 4-6
Batman: 5-5
Black Adam: 4-6
Catwoman: 5-5
Cyborg: 6-4
Deathstroke: 4-6
Doomsday: 5-5 (just to piss Deg and Whiteboi off) or possibly 4-6
Flash: 5-5
Green Arrow: 5-5 (possibly 6-4)
Green Lantern: 7-3
Harley Quinn: 6-4
Hawkgirl: 5-5 (possibly 4-6)
Joker: 7-3
Killer Frost: 5-5
Lex Luthor: 5-5
Lobo: 6-4
Martian Manhunter: 3-7
Nightwing: 6-4 (possible 5-5)
Raven: 3-7
Scorpion: 5-5 ???
Shazam: 6-4
Sinestro: 5-5
Solomon Grundy: 5-5
Superman: 4-6
Wonder Woman: 4-6
Zod: 5-5

Advantage: 8
Even: 13
Disadvantage: 8

Admittedly, some of the opposing numbers to conventional wisdom come from theory crafting, as the UK scene is dead and I don't get a chance to play the highest level reps for some characters online. Please discuss if you disagree. Some I'm stubborn about, some I'm quite flexible. It's also quite difficult to say for sure what a lot of MU's are because there are few players who actually learn how to fight her in supposed hard MU's.
 
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Eldriken

Guest
What is it about Zatanna that makes her such a bad MU for Bane? I'm genuinely curious as I've never seen the MU played out before, nor have I ever asked any Zatanna mains.
 
Phosferrax

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Eldriken said:
What is it about Zatanna that makes her such a bad MU for Bane? I'm genuinely curious as I've never seen the MU played out before, nor have I ever asked any Zatanna mains.
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Runaway and trait too stronk. When you take away Bane's oki he has to work so much harder to get his damage than Zatanna, but once she catches her shes got the vortex and usually quite a bit of meter to extend it. When she gets into trait it's tough, and if he catches her, she's usually already got more damage from zoning him in trait then he gets from a combo. Then it resets and he has to extend himself to much to catch her on wake up.
 
Phosferrax

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
FOREVER KING said:
I agree with most of this, except

Hawkgirl is 5-5
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@Espio

A rarely played MU, but in theory against a competant Hawkgirl I think she can give the magic bitch trouble.

Also I don't see why it's only 4-6 against Raven when Zatanna really can't do much. Care to explain your thoughts on it?
 
EMPRESS_SunFire

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
I agree with mot of these, I agree on Hawlgirl having an advantage over Zatanna, her mobility is a problem but just 4-6 tho.
Raven IMO is just 4-6.
And Aquaman 2-8
Doomsday is definitely in his favor too.
 
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Eldriken

Guest
EMPEROR_SunFire said:
I agree with mot of these, I agree on Hawlgirl having an advantage over Zatanna, her mobility is a problem but just 4-6 tho.
Raven IMO is just 4-6.
And Aquaman 2-8
Doomsday is definitely in his favor too.
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Explain what makes it in Doomsday's favor 'cause I feel it's 5-5. I used to think it was 6-4 in his favor, but not anymore. I was just playing bad Zatanna players at that time.
 
Phosferrax

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Blind_Ducky said:
Why is Raven 3-7? Raven wins but it isn't that bad.
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- Raven's footsies really wreck Zatanna, and she can just soul crush all day and then walk back, which makes means Zat can't dash up because of Raven's walk back and can't jump, as it puts Raven too far back from Zat's j1, either allowing Raven to trip guard her or it causes the j1 to hit at a point where Zatanna is minus. Zatanna also has a really tough time trying to anti-air Raven, but at jump range Raven has lift which is a real problem for Zatanna even at the closer ranges. Her fast normals have such bad range that she can only punish from point blank range, which she is only ever going to be at really on Raven's wake-up because all the other times Raven just spaces her out so badly. Zatanna can't contend which her walk speed, soul crush, lift, and really struggles with her jump 2 imo.

- Raven's trait zoning wrecks Zatanna, but Zatanna's trait doesn't cause any problems to Raven as she can just safely soul crush. Even if Zatanna reads a soul crush and teleports behind causing the soul crush to whiff, she doesn't get any decent damage because she's in trait.

- Soul crush punishes trance and cards, but Zat can't punish soul crush with trance. Zat can't throw rings because of reflect, and even if you just block the rings, soul crush still catches Zatanna trying to do anything else at almost full range of soul crush. Even mb rings don't really grant Zatanna anything on block because of it.

- Zat can only build meter through teleporting, and can't just spam teleports like she normally can. When you take away her meter she is really limited, and obviously can't vortex. She gets pathetic damage outside of jump ins without meter, but Raven does really good damage.

I just feel that Raven can just sit at mid range and she completely dominates Zatanna, then can go into trait allowing her to zone Zatanna. If you're careful not to go ham with just pillars and you predominantly use soul crush in trait then Zatanna can't counter zone or teleport.

What are your thoughts on it? Both characters are quite poorly represented at a high level, but I think the way you play Raven would just destroy any Zat once you implement the proper MU knowledge and strategy, if you don't already.
 
Phosferrax

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
For the people who aren't Ducky and say the Raven MU is 4-6, I don't like to pile the MU on to one person, but it has been shown that no one is anywhere near as good and smart with Raven as Ducky is. Further from that, I am quite sure that no Raven apart from Ducky actually has a decent idea of how to play that MU. I bet this is one of the least explored MU's in the game.
 
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Eldriken

Guest
cR_whiteboi said:
another chart. Also I believe I've stated the reason DD beats her 6-4 in degs mu.
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I guess I'll have to go look for it.

Edit: I didn't see a post from you in there, just Deg explaining why it's in Doomsday's favor. I guess I just haven't played/explored the MU enough to get the proper handle on it to make it look favorable.
 
Blind_Ducky

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
Phosferrax said:
- Raven's footsies really wreck Zatanna, and she can just soul crush all day and then walk back, which makes means Zat can't dash up because of Raven's walk back and can't jump, as it puts Raven too far back from Zat's j1, either allowing Raven to trip guard her or it causes the j1 to hit at a point where Zatanna is minus. Zatanna also has a really tough time trying to anti-air Raven, but at jump range Raven has lift which is a real problem for Zatanna even at the closer ranges. Her fast normals have such bad range that she can only punish from point blank range, which she is only ever going to be at really on Raven's wake-up because all the other times Raven just spaces her out so badly. Zatanna can't contend which her walk speed, soul crush, lift, and really struggles with her jump 2 imo.

- Raven's trait zoning wrecks Zatanna, but Zatanna's trait doesn't cause any problems to Raven as she can just safely soul crush. Even if Zatanna reads a soul crush and teleports behind causing the soul crush to whiff, she doesn't get any decent damage because she's in trait.

- Soul crush punishes trance and cards, but Zat can't punish soul crush with trance. Zat can't throw rings because of reflect, and even if you just block the rings, soul crush still catches Zatanna trying to do anything else at almost full range of soul crush. Even mb rings don't really grant Zatanna anything on block because of it.

- Zat can only build meter through teleporting, and can't just spam teleports like she normally can. When you take away her meter she is really limited, and obviously can't vortex. She gets pathetic damage outside of jump ins without meter, but Raven does really good damage.

I just feel that Raven can just sit at mid range and she completely dominates Zatanna, then can go into trait allowing her to zone Zatanna. If you're careful not to go ham with just pillars and you predominantly use soul crush in trait then Zatanna can't counter zone or teleport.

What are your thoughts on it? Both characters are quite poorly represented at a high level, but I think the way you play Raven would just destroy any Zat once you implement the proper MU knowledge and strategy, if you don't already.
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A couple things, zatanna's d2, in my experience, anti airs Ravens j2 just fine. Raven's lift as an aa isn't great. Yeah Raven outfootsies zatanna BADLY. Zatanna can't do anything to keep Raven from walking forward and forcing her to play footsies where Raven destroys zatanna. So yeah I agree with that.

Ravens trait is useless against zatanna. Teleport is faster than soul crush so after pillar Raven can either do another special or wait and punish a teleport. There's no reason to play this game when Raven dominates the footsie game as well as she does. If Raven is using trait on you, that's a good thing for you not her.

Honestly I don't even use reflect in this match up. It just causes another pointless mix up game. It's much easier to just block & keep walking in and forcing zatanna to play footsies.

It's injustice. Zatanna will get meter.

I played deg at evo in a short set & beat him. So i think I know the MU fairly well. I highly doubt it's 3-7 but idk. The mu is probably very under explored.
 
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