Phosferrax's fraud Zatanna MU chart

[Phosferrax]

From my testing f3 doesn't work if the demigoddess is instant. Even if it isn't, you have to be holding the f3 for a long time to go under it. In that case it's kind of obvious what you're looking for there and shouldn't work that often.

What good options does Zatanna have if it's just teleport and trait? You can't really win games that way when you're just running, and she can be knocked out of trait with air tiara so that's not as effective either. So basically you can't throw rings, your trait use is limited and teleporting away is getting you any damage. How does Zatanna get me in a vortex if she can't zone effectively? Also, if you try to MB f3 a j3, WoWo can cancel into divepunch so that's not foolproof.

D3 also works to avoid the iaDG.

Zat can get trait out a lot, and WoWo will normally take a bit of bruising before she can get Zat out, as her options all have counters.

She gets damage because WoWo has to get in to do her damage. Parrying isn't getting you damage, hitting her out of trait isn't equaling the damage that Zat's got from trait zoning. WoWo has an easier time getting in but she still has to make reads and take risks to hit me. And when Zat hits you, it leads to silly setups to get more damage off you, where as WoWo has to work after she's finished a combo usually.

 

[Phosferrax]

@Phosferrax
If you have Xbox I will gladly play you to show you how.

Tag is the same as my name.

Prepare to be enlightened by my dropped combos and setups.

 

[ryublaze]

i thought DS vs. Zat was 5-5...but only because every1 else said so. i never really felt scared playing against her, and the zatannas that i've played said she loses so idk lol. i don't think it's an explored match-up tbh...doesn't she get out of oki for free with teleport?

 

[Phosferrax]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Nightwing can just forward dash after each ring toss. His dash (one of the fastest in the game, hehe) completely escapes Puppet Master too. The only thing he can't do is dash after MB Rings. Zatanna can keep running away if she wants but she'll just be running herself into the corner where her only escape will be teleport behind (which can be blown up unless MB'd, but even then it means that she's in Nightwing's face which isn't where she wants to be). Even in Staff, Nightwing can dash for free, then reversal GP after a blocked Puppet Master, after which he's +9.

His forward dash is one of the reasons I could see it being even in the future. But it's easier for her to escape the corner against NW then others because he has trouble with her jumping at him in the neutral. The only time it's particularly hard to get out is when he's bullying her in staff in the corner, but that's the same for nearly everyone. Also, MB teleport into throw is great for getting out.

Not really. All NW has to do is jump over/duck one of the trait shots and GP which knocks her out of trait. Only problem is that Nightwing still gets hit by the trait shot.

Yes but it's not as simply as just jumping over, as full screen he can barely jump over repeated low shots. I think at a decent range as well she can just spam straight shot to stuff him out of GP. Plus it's not a huge victory getting her out of trait, the likelihood is that Zatanna has taken a good chunk of life and built a shit load of meter only to win the trade, knock you down and still have zoning advantage. All she has to do is wait 5 seconds and she can go back into trait again after that.

Nightwing's B2 far out-ranges Zatanna's S3, her longest-reaching normal. B2 Flipkick crosses up on block from all ranges on Zatanna so while you're focused on blocking that, Nightwing can start throwing out B2 Scatterbombs, just B2 into NJ3 or 112, or even B2 Staff Spin. Zatanna also can't punish wingdings from most ranges so Nightwing can abuse his J3 and when Zatanna starts trying to D2 he can wingding safely without having to MB them.

Im not sure if it's character specific, but the first hit of the mb flipkick whiff's on a Zatanna when she ducks, meaning that B2 into other shit isn't free because i'm not interested in blocking it, im trying to stuff it. It's hardly ground breaking to the mu but it's something. Is that a character specific thing? And with wing dings, if you hit me then you knock me down and I run away, you get some damage but nothing else. If she reads it and hits him with ring toss or teleports behind then she gets a lot more than what he does out of that situation.

As for wakeups, Nightwing can just Flying Grayson after a Staff-Spin HKD. If she teleports away, NW stays in her face. If she blocks, NW is around +1 and within S1 range. If she multi-kicks, FG completely avoids it and she's forced to block a GP. If she teleports behind, she's still within S1 range.

Cards beats FG, leading to a knockdown and trait rapeage, and teleport behind leaves her well out of s1 range if NW does a FG.

 

[Phosferrax]

i thought DS vs. Zat was 5-5...but only because every1 else said so. i never really felt scared playing against her, and the zatannas that i've played said she loses so idk lol. i don't think it's an explored match-up tbh...doesn't she get out of oki for free with teleport?

It's one of my less explored MU's, I just reckon it could be 4-6. Read my post about it before in the thread and see what you think.

 

[Drizzle]

D3 also works to avoid the iaDG.

Zat can get trait out a lot, and WoWo will normally take a bit of bruising before she can get Zat out, as her options all have counters.

She gets damage because WoWo has to get in to do her damage. Parrying isn't getting you damage, hitting her out of trait isn't equaling the damage that Zat's got from trait zoning. WoWo has an easier time getting in but she still has to make reads and take risks to hit me. And when Zat hits you, it leads to silly setups to get more damage off you, where as WoWo has to work after she's finished a combo usually.

Can she actually punish if she d3s under? If not then I have no reason to worry about it. Parrying isn't getting me damage, but it's building me meter and gets me a free check with demigoddess that you have to respect. After that I'm in your face and even though I'm negative, it barely matters because nothing of Zat's can reach.

You have a point about trait, but having the option to hit her out of it still makes the chip less free that it would be normally.

Outside of trait, what risks do I have to take? Since you're just teleporting away until trait comes, I can walk forward with the occasional iaDG and let you corner yourself with back teleports. If you want to move forward you're forced to use the behind version, which only works if it's MB'd. Even in that case, you're in my face and have to deal with WoWo's pressure. After a knockdown, what risk is there in reading a teleport with a jump back or forward? Also, when is Zatanna getting these setups? If I'm not mistaken, stray hits in trait don't lead to anything and her main way of getting her vortex started is catching you with rings into combo, or hitting with normals; neither of those being too effective in the match-up. I don't see how she can win by just chipping away for an entire game.

 

[M2Dave]

i thought DS vs. Zat was 5-5...but only because every1 else said so. i never really felt scared playing against her, and the zatannas that i've played said she loses so idk lol. i don't think it's an explored match-up tbh...doesn't she get out of oki for free with teleport?

Deathstroke has the advantage in footsies and at mid range. She cannot anti air j.3. She cannot zone him effectively. Puppet master is always punishable on block. Back teleports can be punished with high gunshots or checked with low gunshots, which she cannot punish on block. Forward teleports can safely be checked with d+1 xx sword spin.

On paper at least, Deathstroke should win.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

IMO Wonder Woman has potential to defeat her 7-3. It's a very bad MU. Also I don't see how Zatanna has an easy time getting out of the corner against her, WW can oki her well with J3, parry is a problem, her J3 into 50/50 is a problem since Zatanna can't AA her, her AA is a problem, her mobility over all makes it hard for Zatanna to deal with her, and let's not forget about her midscreen OTG set-ups, WW can either get in and bully her which is not a hard at all or make her get in which is good for her.

 

[HeroesNZ]

His forward dash is one of the reasons I could see it being even in the future. But it's easier for her to escape the corner against NW then others because he has trouble with her jumping at him in the neutral. The only time it's particularly hard to get out is when he's bullying her in staff in the corner, but that's the same for nearly everyone. Also, MB teleport into throw is great for getting out.



Yes but it's not as simply as just jumping over, as full screen he can barely jump over repeated low shots. I think at a decent range as well she can just spam straight shot to stuff him out of GP. Plus it's not a huge victory getting her out of trait, the likelihood is that Zatanna has taken a good chunk of life and built a shit load of meter only to win the trade, knock you down and still have zoning advantage. All she has to do is wait 5 seconds and she can go back into trait again after that.



Im not sure if it's character specific, but the first hit of the mb flipkick whiff's on a Zatanna when she ducks, meaning that B2 into other shit isn't free because i'm not interested in blocking it, im trying to stuff it. It's hardly ground breaking to the mu but it's something. Is that a character specific thing? And with wing dings, if you hit me then you knock me down and I run away, you get some damage but nothing else. If she reads it and hits him with ring toss or teleports behind then she gets a lot more than what he does out of that situation.




Cards beats FG, leading to a knockdown and trait rapeage, and teleport behind leaves her well out of s1 range if NW does a FG.

Literally the only things Zatanna has in her favour is:
- Her runaway ability
- She's not easy to oki.

Up-close, Nightwing beats her. If B2 in Escrima far out-ranges her S3, then there's is no way she can deal with B1 in Staff. Once you run yourself into the corner, all we have to do is a string into MB Staff Spin or GP and all of a sudden the MU just got very hard for her. She can pushblock but that's good for us because it means that she'll still be in the corner and we'll still far out-range her normals. Her only escape will be a MB teleport but that'll mean that she's spent 2 bars on getting out of the corner just to be back in our face. He gets around her zoning very easily so the only thing Zatanna has in her favour in terms of the zoning war is the amount of chip damage Nightwing will sustain when trying to get in.

Her trait is the only thing she can outzone NW with and even then, it's only good fullscreen. As soon as NW steps into WD range her trait becomes a lot less useful. Nightwing's best bet in this MU is simply just staying in Escrima and rushing her down so ideally he shouldn't even be fullscreen in Staff.

When I was talking about wingdings, I was talking about within Nightwing's J3 range. Unless the NW player does the WDs point-blank, she can't punish them. This means that, as with everyone, it's a guess between whether NW will J3 or WD but in this case NW gets to save his meter because Zatanna can't punish WDs.

 

[bishbash]

WW beats her 7-3, Hawkgirl at least 6-4 IMO.

The only way you're going to beat a good Wonder Woman is if they don't know the MU. Anyone competent will end every combo with OTG and she'll be right in your face where you have nothing to challenge her. ggs.

 

[rev0lver]

i agree with the lex number

 

[Phosferrax]

Literally the only things Zatanna has in her favour is:
- Her runaway ability
- She's not easy to oki.

Honestly I think that is enough to give Zat an edge. It's easier for her to run away then it is for NW to get in and stay in, and cards far outreaches b2 in the neutral aswell, which can be difficult for NW to deal with if Zat spaces it properly, so it's not like b2 is the be all and end all.

And chip isn't all she has in the zoning game; you run the risk of getting caught by trance and getting vortex'd as well. Her zoning is just more threatening compared to what NW can do. If you guess right in escrima, you get 8% and zoning advantage. If she guess right, she gets a combo, into a vortex. Which do you think is better?

And punishing wingdings is a problem yes, but on block you give up the work you've done to get in, as she just gets to teleport away, so it's a compensation.

As I've said, I could see this being equal, but I need convincing. All this theory arguing is just highlighting all the little metagame victories that she has over him, imo.

 

[HeroesNZ]

Honestly I think that is enough to give Zat an edge. It's easier for her to run away then it is for NW to get in and stay in, and cards far outreaches b2 in the neutral aswell, which can be difficult for NW to deal with if Zat spaces it properly, so it's not like b2 is the be all and end all.

And chip isn't all she has in the zoning game; you run the risk of getting caught by trance and getting vortex'd as well. Her zoning is just more threatening compared to what NW can do. If you guess right in escrima, you get 8% and zoning advantage. If she guess right, she gets a combo, into a vortex. Which do you think is better?

That's the thing, it's not hard for Nightwing to get in at all. It's literally just block ~ dash ~ repeat and when she traits up our goal is to hit her out of it, which is trickier but still very doable. For Nightwing, it's about as hard as getting in on Deathstroke (i.e. it's pretty easy). The only thing is that it might take awhile with all her teleporting. Also there is minimal risk of getting caught by trance. Trance can't catch his dash because it's too quick and it can't hit him on the way down from his jump. Nightwing shouldn't be zoning in this MU so of course hers is going to be more threatening. It's like saying that her zoning is more threatening than Arrow's.

The MU is literally:
1- Nightwing has better rushdown.
2- Zatanna outzones him.
3- Not too hard for Nightwing to get in and score a knockdown.
4- Zatanna is hard to oki and if she gets up then she'll start zoning again.
5- Repeat from number 2.

I think it's 5-5 personally. I can understand 6-4 Zatanna and I'm willing to change my opinion if there's a good enough reason, but right now I just don't feel that her zoning is strong enough against Nightwing to win her the MU.

 

[Yoaks]

I'm sure @JustPressingButtons will be surprised from me saying this but... I agree with him and Decay on the Lobo mu being 5-5. It's just I'm so unfamiliar with Zat that I would get hit by everything. Plus the fact that I get super impatient most of the time.

I also rely on oki alot. Which in this mu I can't depend on obviously.

 

[Phosferrax]

Tbh the Lobo mu is just down as 6-4 because I've always felt very comfortable against Lobo. It's a very under-explored mu that I am entirely open to it being 5-5.

 

[Magnum Magpie]

Don't agree with
Aquaman 2-8 (mmh is worse)
Mmh
Death stroke
Raven

Maybe even cyborg (more in zat favour imo)

But everything else is alright.

Like I said aquaman is gayy but mmh is gayyerr..

What makes you think zatanna need to get in on raven anyway? If Ravens being a keep away bi**h than so can zatanna, raven zoning doesn't reach full screen so zatanna can freely zone there and build meter by teleporting away, you can then wait for her trait teleport and punish. No raven I've played has got around it yet to be honest. :/

 

[Phosferrax]

Don't agree with
Aquaman 2-8 (mmh is worse)
Mmh
Death stroke
Raven

Maybe even cyborg (more in zat favour imo)

But everything else is alright.

Like I said aquaman is gayy but mmh is gayyerr..

What makes you think zatanna need to get in on raven anyway? If Ravens being a keep away bi**h than so can zatanna, raven zoning doesn't reach full screen so zatanna can freely zone there and build meter by teleporting away, you can then wait for her trait teleport and punish. No raven I've played has got around it yet to be honest. :/

Nah I think Aquaman is worse, MMH at least has to think at some parts of the screen.

Why wouldn't Deathsroke have a slight advantage? Meterless combos, better air control, better footsies.

Cyborg is absolutely 6-4, I've run this with @Kinetic Balding1 extensively and it's definitely no worse than 6-4.

Offline, Raven can just walk Zat into the corner if she's just teleporting back and then she's stuck at that range where she gets raped. Fullscreen she can just absorb rings and walk forward and block trance on reaction, no need to mb the absorb, and without the meter Zatanna can't do shit.

 

[Magnum Magpie]

Nah I think Aquaman is worse, MMH at least has to think at some parts of the screen.

Why wouldn't Deathsroke have a slight advantage? Meterless combos, better air control, better footsies.

Cyborg is absolutely 6-4, I've run this with @Kinetic Balding1 extensively and it's definitely no worse than 6-4.

Offline, Raven can just walk Zat into the corner if she's just teleporting back and then she's stuck at that range where she gets raped. Fullscreen she can just absorb rings and walk forward and block trance on reaction, no need to mb the absorb, and without the meter Zatanna can't do shit.

Okay so overall people will have different opponents who play that character differently, me on the other hand had never come across a raven who can tackle zatannas proper runaway game (if done correctly), or a cyborg who outs ones zatanna, I've played a cyborg main who is quite good and who once got a perfect on me, but purely through zatannas zoning I managed to make a comeback and win the majority of those games.

Every death stroke who is experienced enough will constantly jump and try to j3 you, If you know how to "counter bait" him correctly by making them think you will do something risky you can at least catch them in mb puppet-m or w/rings. I'd say it's even in a way, the match can go extremely well for both at different times.

And Yh raven I guess can do that, but if that was the case, and raven did EVERYTHING absolutely PERFECT, and knew zatannas tricks inside n out, then Yh I guess zatanna would lose. But like I said I've vs great raven mains in the past and they have dealt damage on me before, all with different ways of playing, but I'm yet to be proven wrong.

 

[Skeezer12]

If she reads iaDG, she can make it whiff with f3 and punish it at certain ranges. She gets beaten in footsies for sure, but this isn't a mu where Zat has to contest footsies so it only makes a difference in the corner. Wowo has to get in and that's where Zat contests her as well which she has good options. She gets beaten in damage though, and the meter game really hurts Zatanna when it comes to clashing.

Ring zoning isn't relevant though because trait zoning is the primary tool for Zat, as WoWo can't parry low shot (iirc) or pillar. Trait is what keeps Zat in the MU I think, although Wowo still has good counter options. This is where Zat get's most of her meter for pushblock, vortex and mb tele to get out of the corner.

After a block b113, even though she is at minus the guessing game still favours WoWo because of Zat's shit range, and j3 is a problem, but at least it's easier to mb b3 than j2.

Zat never really has it better than WoWo, but her runaway, trait and subsequent meter build are the things that keep Zat competitive in the MU. It isn't a case of being patient for WoWo and bullying them into the corner, because if you're patient against trait you'll lose a lot of life and give Zat a lot of meter to get out of the corner and keep you chasing her.

We have played this Mu Enough . Yeah WoWo Does very Good against her.

 

[Magnum Magpie]

We have played this Mu Enough . Yeah WoWo Does very Good against her.

Wowo is soooooo annoying, she'll beat zatanna with enough experience... You don't even need all the tech and set ups in the world, you just need perfect execution against her, and that's all you need. :'(

So Yh Wonder Woman is a major bully to zatanna... It's sad, like 4-6 sad... :'(

 

[Skeezer12]

Wowo is soooooo annoying, she'll beat zatanna with enough experience... You don't even need all the tech and set ups in the world, you just need perfect execution against her, and that's all you need. :'(

So Yh Wonder Woman is a major bully to zatanna... It's sad, like 4-6 sad... :'(

I remember playing you , you remember me ?

 

[Kinetic Balding1]

Okay so overall people will have different opponents who play that character differently, me on the other hand had never come across a raven who can tackle zatannas proper runaway game (if done correctly), or a cyborg who outs ones zatanna, I've played a cyborg main who is quite good and who once got a perfect on me, but purely through zatannas zoning I managed to make a comeback and win the majority of those games.

Every death stroke who is experienced enough will constantly jump and try to j3 you, If you know how to "counter bait" him correctly by making them think you will do something risky you can at least catch them in mb puppet-m or w/rings. I'd say it's even in a way, the match can go extremely well for both at different times.

And Yh raven I guess can do that, but if that was the case, and raven did EVERYTHING absolutely PERFECT, and knew zatannas tricks inside n out, then Yh I guess zatanna would lose. But like I said I've vs great raven mains in the past and they have dealt damage on me before, all with different ways of playing, but I'm yet to be proven wrong.

GT: Kinetic Balding if your available to run the cyborg mu.

 

[Yoaks]

I would love to run a set with you again @Phosferrax

 

[Phosferrax]

I would love to run a set with you again @Phosferrax

Me too. The more i think about it, the more it seems a 5-5.

When I go into trait just abuse trait shot.

 

[Magnum Magpie]

I remember playing you , you remember me ?

Yh man you have an great Wowo I can remember a few, but your wowo along side dukes was most memorable