Match-up Discussion WhiteBoi's Doomsday MU Chart

[HomeLee1121]

Just because Cyrax won against Kabal (using this as an example) in grand finals does not make a match 5-5 magically. Everyone's entitled to their opinions, but come on already...the dickriding is getting way too real in here.

I guess agreeing is dick riding? Way to derail this thread and talk about mk bro

 

[ryublaze]

#whiteboi4lyfe

 

[cR_whiteboi]

Massive words.

I can understand that line of thinking and its not bad. When I judge a mu. I base it off the highest level of play and on how many times they've played it. In the case of hawkgirl, one of ppj main training partners is a very good doomsday known as @GGA Saucy Jack. So he's been able to play this mu to know all his options.

Maybe its not greatest way to judge a mu. But its how I look at it.

 

[RiBBz22]

I can understand that line of thinking and its not bad. When I judge a mu. I base it off the highest level of play and on how many times they've played it. In the case of hawkgirl, one of ppj main training partners is a very good doomsday known as @GGA Saucy Jack. So he's been able to play this mu to know all his options.

Maybe its not greatest way to judge a mu. But its how I look at it.

Fair enough, but it has failed you in the Frost MU

 

[cR_whiteboi]

So you have to agree? Just because i live in europe and havent attended any major tournaments makes my opinion less valuable? yes congrats on all that @Tm_whiteboi ! but stop with patronizing already, getting real old and tired.

I'm being patronizing, because instead giving me your reasons behind your numbers, you instead decide to post a GIF and ask if I played two players before.
please list your reasons if you disagree.

 

[Eldriken]

Fair enough, but it has failed you in the Frost MU

It's only because Frost is a bitch.

 

[cR_whiteboi]

Fair enough, but it has failed you in the Frost MU

Now that MU is indeed a theory number. since you frost players apparently.all died of a heat flash

 

[cR_whiteboi]

Fair enough, but it has failed you in the Frost MU

This mu I dont think has ever been played on the highest level yet. I would love to really play a long set with a frost so we could really explore it.
Anyway the reasons I think its a 5-5, is super simple, but what do you expect from a doomsday player. The mu is all read based, they each have a counter to one another but neither shut down all their options. The only place where frost wins out right is full screen. But doomsday wins in the corner.
added bonus to this mu number is that pl and bit agreed on it. And if they agree on something, then I think its something to.look at.

 

[RiBBz22]

This mu I dont think has ever been played on the highest level yet. I would love to really play a long set with a frost so we could really explore it.
Anyway the reasons I think its a 5-5, is super simple, but what do you expect from a doomsday player. The mu is all read based, they each have a counter to one another but neither shut down all their options. The only place where frost wins out right is full screen. But doomsday wins in the corner.
added bonus to this mu number is that pl and bit agreed on it. And if they agree on something, then I think its something to.look at.

The MU is read based, sure most MU's are. What do you get off your reads? What does Frost get off of her reads? Who is the one that is really dictating the read having to be made? Something to consider.

I agree DD probably has the advantage in the corner. KF has a strong corner game too, but it is harder for her to get out of the corner than it is for DD IMO. I think that KF's oki game is stronger, she wins full screen where it is difficult for DD to get in without trait, and she has a +2 d1 that helps her deal with him when he has it activated (which is a pretty nice luxury). MB supernova can be punished with dash toward slide or slide slide, body splash is easier to anti-air with d2 after the patch that addressed d2's. Naked venom can be parried from nearly point blank on reaction due to the delay of the hit. Just the fact alone that DD is forced to make a read almost any time he presses a button due to parry is a pretty big deal IMO.

Added bonus: PL said Kung Lao was outside of the top 10 at one point. If you agreed with that, then I think you need to get looked at.

 

[RTM2004]

MylesWright said before nobody wants to travel and compete with mediocre Killer Frost to only get mediocre or bad results from tournament placing.

No Killer Frost players at UFGT and MLG Anaheim? Probably none at this CEO and EVO?

Maybe he is right no Killer Frost players are willing to spend money for a flight ticket, book a hotel and compete with top players to prove themselves.

But but but.... she has Slide, Vortex 50/50, MBParry?

Slide is -4 blocked and baited with jump back or MB B3, Vortex requires meter management and it's not as easy to open up turtling players, Parry can be baited punished, grab and nj on read.

By the looks of those, Doomsday is capable of doing that with reads, option to bait and mess with her wake ups, use interactables depending on stage, play his corner game. When Killer Frost loses a massive life lead with time running out, she can be lamed out hardcore then she takes huge risks to get in such as sliding and air dashing. Ice Daggers that can be ducked and an unsafe Iceberg won't do her any good against an extremely patient player, any character really in general. Yes, she has an answer for all of Doomsday options but he also has counter attacks on her options as well. He has to play differently, tone down his momentum, play less risky and more safe when approaching this particular character but that doesn't mean "Killer Frost wins that match up free" she has advantage but Doomsday can work around his game plan.

The point is all this argumentative theory fighting over the Internet is not doing any good for the character Killer Frost. She is probably just a mid-tier and fair character.

WhiteBoi has it 5-5 so now it's up to the Killer Frost players to show up and prove yourselves at the upcoming tournaments he will be also attending.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

I'm being patronizing, because instead giving me your reasons behind your numbers, you instead decide to post a GIF and ask if I played two players before.
please list your reasons if you disagree.

i can be a bitch too but i have stated that frost shuts down entire doomsday play... yes hard for frost to get out of corner, but she can zone him, charge her trait, i said it on past page about frost.
however about hawkgirl, she can wing evade out of d1es into a full combo from wing evade 2, she can wing evade supernova, her d2 is perfect in this mu, she can zone him out, its not hard for her to get out of corner, hence doomsdays trait is up... she can d1 macecharge him until his trait is gone, or what i have seen from @Espio vs @Eldriken matches... macecharge trait cancels while doomsday's trait is up annihilates him. (you should want those matches.) In this matchup hawkgirl cannot wakeup, macetoss mb beats any venom, both characters can gain momentum easily, doomsdays antiair grab is grab to punish hawkgirls whiffed mace toss while she is in trait.

 

[RM Truth]

i can be a bitch too but i have stated that frost shuts down entire doomsday play... yes hard for frost to get out of corner, but she can zone him, charge her trait, i said it on past page about frost.
however about hawkgirl, she can wing evade out of d1es into a full combo from wing evade 2, she can wing evade supernova, her d2 is perfect in this mu, she can zone him out, its not hard for her to get out of corner, hence doomsdays trait is up... she can d1 macecharge him until his trait is gone, or what i have seen from @Espio vs @Eldriken matches... macecharge trait cancels while doomsday's trait is up annihilates him. (you should want those matches.) In this matchup hawkgirl cannot wakeup, macetoss mb beats any venom, both characters can gain momentum easily, doomsdays antiair grab is grab to punish hawkgirls whiffed mace toss while she is in trait.

D1 xx mace charge can be blown up in between.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

D1 xx mace charge can be blown up in between.

if he tries to jump out, hawkgirl can wing evade 3 him after d1

 

[Eldriken]

i can be a bitch too but i have stated that frost shuts down entire doomsday play... yes hard for frost to get out of corner, but she can zone him, charge her trait, i said it on past page about frost.
however about hawkgirl, she can wing evade out of d1es into a full combo from wing evade 2, she can wing evade supernova, her d2 is perfect in this mu, she can zone him out, its not hard for her to get out of corner, hence doomsdays trait is up... she can d1 macecharge him until his trait is gone, or what i have seen from @Espio vs @Eldriken matches... macecharge trait cancels while doomsday's trait is up annihilates him. (you should want those matches.) In this matchup hawkgirl cannot wakeup, macetoss mb beats any venom, both characters can gain momentum easily, doomsdays antiair grab is grab to punish hawkgirls whiffed mace toss while she is in trait.

Doomsday can keep Hawkgirl in the corner without a problem. Slightly delaying a raw Earth Shake blows up all of her wake up attempts. She's forced to have to guess if he's going to continue doing a delayed raw Earth Shake. If she guesses correctly, her d1 will beat it out. That's her only option from what I've gathered. You should see that from the videos that you mentioned earlier.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

Doomsday can keep Hawkgirl in the corner without a problem. Slightly delaying a raw Earth Shake blows up all of her wake up attempts. She's forced to have to guess if he's going to continue doing a delayed raw Earth Shake. If she guesses correctly, her d1 will beat it out. That's her only option from what I've gathered. You should see that from the videos that you mentioned earlier.

i know i saw

 

[RM Truth]

Doomsday can keep Hawkgirl in the corner without a problem. Slightly delaying a raw Earth Shake blows up all of her wake up attempts. She's forced to have to guess if he's going to continue doing a delayed raw Earth Shake. If she guesses correctly, her d1 will beat it out. That's her only option from what I've gathered. You should see that from the videos that you mentioned earlier.

I saw those videos too. You should work on getting down the wake-up reversal in the corner. It makes DD's corner game almost unbearable.

 

[Eldriken]

I saw those videos too. You should work on getting down the wake-up reversal in the corner. It makes DD's corner game almost unbearable.

I know how to do the corner reversal, I just thought it didn't work against her.

 

[RM Truth]

I know how to do the corner reversal, I just thought it didn't work against her.

You can probably do raw ES or D2 xx ES instead.

EDIT: Nevermind. Whiteboi confirmed it doesn't work.

 

[cR_whiteboi]

The MU is read based, sure most MU's are. What do you get off your reads? What does Frost get off of her reads? Who is the one that is really dictating the read having to be made? Something to consider.

I agree DD probably has the advantage in the corner. KF has a strong corner game too, but it is harder for her to get out of the corner than it is for DD IMO. I think that KF's oki game is stronger, she wins full screen where it is difficult for DD to get in without trait, and she has a +2 d1 that helps her deal with him when he has it activated (which is a pretty nice luxury). MB supernova can be punished with dash toward slide or slide slide, body splash is easier to anti-air with d2 after the patch that addressed d2's. Naked venom can be parried from nearly point blank on reaction due to the delay of the hit. Just the fact alone that DD is forced to make a read almost any time he presses a button due to parry is a pretty big deal IMO.

Added bonus: PL said Kung Lao was outside of the top 10 at one point. If you agreed with that, then I think you need to get looked at.

Well for one that's doomsday in every single mu. His reward isn't nearly as great as most characters.
Two parry albeit good isn't the end all be all. Doomsday options to avoid it, and can also bait it. If the frost is also focused on parrying shoulder then that let's me get a dash in. Doomsday deals with plus frame d1s all the time in trait, it's not that big enough reason to state as why she wins. If doomsday can gain the life lead as well, her options are extremely small and are easy to deal with. Again I'd love to play the extinct race of frost at the major, so we could really explore it. But you guys never travel.
No it's not because Carl thinks it. It's the fact they agree with one another that makes it feel like hell froze over. (Please acknowledge what I did there)

 

[cR_whiteboi]

I know how to do the corner reversal, I just thought it didn't work against her.

It doesn't work on her. Delayed Es. Delayed d1. D2 and f2 blow up her wakeups.

 

[Eldriken]

You can probably do raw ES or D2 xx ES instead.

Yeah, doing a delayed raw Earth Shake works unless she decides to try and d1.

It doesn't work on her. Delayed Es. Delayed d1. D2 and f2 blow up her wakeups.

I usually do a f2 mid screen to blow up wake up attempts, I guess I'll have to do it in the corner as well. I'll also start doing d2 to blow them up as well. Thanks for the tips.

 

[cR_whiteboi]

Yeah, doing a delayed raw Earth Shake works unless she decides to try and d1.



I usually do a f2 mid screen to blow up wake up attempts, I guess I'll have to do it in the corner as well. I'll also start doing d2 to blow them up as well. Thanks for the tips.

Midscreen after Es. A dash up d1 and d2 can also blow up wakeups

 

[RM Truth]

It doesn't work on her. Delayed Es. Delayed d1. D2 and f2 blow up her wakeups.

What exactly stops it from working?

 

[Eldriken]

Midscreen after Es. A dash up d1 and d2 can also blow up wakeups

Good to know.

Think you will be up for some Doomsday mirrors at CEO? Not a MM or anything, just some casuals. I'd like to see how I stack up. I'm pretty sure I'll get blown up, but I'd still like to give it a shot.

 

[Eldriken]

What exactly stops it from working?

I believe if she goes for a Wing Evade wake up and you reverse it, she does it behind you which gets her out of the corner for free.