Here's how you balance Reptile.

[THTB]

I posted this in another thread, but I thought you should know that the EVO champion of MK9 does NOT have any offline competition in his area. If he wants offline competition, he has to travel to another city (Cleveland, 2 hours from him) to find competition. I don't have that immediate of access to competition (Well, I do, but I'm held back due to money, work, etc...I can't travel as far and as often as I'd like). No one in NorCal really plays, so Michaelangelo doesn't have a great source, either. I don't believe Osu16Bit has competition around him. REO is in NY, but he doesn't get the opportunity to play people offline outside of once a week.

For the most part, we all play online. We just understand the problems with it, so we're not gonna suggest balance changes based on it.

 

[GodsLonelyman]

I posted this in another thread, but I thought you should know that the EVO champion of MK9 does NOT have any offline competition in his area. If he wants offline competition, he has to travel to another city (Cleveland, 2 hours from him) to find competition. I don't have that immediate of access to competition (Well, I do, but I'm held back due to money, work, etc...I can't travel as far and as often as I'd like). No one in NorCal really plays, so Michaelangelo doesn't have a great source, either. I don't believe Osu16Bit has competition around him. REO is in NY, but he doesn't get the opportunity to play people offline outside of once a week.

For the most part, we all play online. We just understand the problems with it, so we're not gonna suggest balance changes based on it.

Interesting to say the least. These mentioned players must be naturals I suppose with a long history in fighting games, and perhaps they study frame data and actually UNDERSTAND the games mechanics. It seems quite difficult to level up without comp so props to them.

 

[shoshinsha]

Unfortunately MK9's online is terrible...and the game changes so much simply due to input delay and inconsistency in latency causing spikes. This throws off a player's ability to react properly immensely, and as such, things such as online-only frame traps, being safe because you can't react in time to punish online, come into play 100%. And this applies for ANY online fighting game not utilizing GGPO. When you're playing offline, these problems of punishment cease to exist because your reactions are properly displayed. Online interferes with a player's ability to play too much to try and do balancing around it. I don't get why you would find the perspective of "online is the problem, not the move itself" offensive, because that is what is the problem. It's not some complex web of reasonings...it's really simple.

I'll just refer you to what I said to someone else who responded to my post:

I agree with you that online sucks in this game and was not trying to indicate that it should be a major component of game balance. What I was targeting is folks who take the attitude that online players know nothing, deserve no credit, input, or consideration regarding the game, and that things should only be balanced around the highest level of tournament play. That's an unrealistic, out-of-touch, elitist attitude that does nothing but hurt the game.

 

[xxteefxx]

So what 95% of people aren't competitive players, we still would like to have a chance at winning every now and then, but people like you shit on everyone who plays casually, and think our opinion doesn't matter. your not as good as me therefore you don't know anything. i've never played one fighting game before mk, the only reason i play this fighting game is because its better than all the others and the only one that is fun to me. i never played gay ass street fighter so stop saying go back to it. you sound like an immature close minded little girl. you reptile players are more closeminded than any kung lao raiden or kano player

How old are u seriously? and if MK is your first fighting game ever, why the heck are you even writing in here? why dont u set , learn, practice and dont come up with seriously....pointless stuff :S

 

[Scoot Magee]

I think everyone should get nrs to fix the online instead of fucking with game balance to work around lag. With this shit netcode the game is kinda useless if you don't have a local scene or just a few people to play offline. Even having 1 other player to play offline is pretty good.

 

[GodsLonelyman]

I think everyone should get nrs to fix the online instead of fucking with game balance to work around lag. With this shit netcode the game is kinda useless if you don't have a local scene or just a few people to play offline. Even having 1 other player to play offline is pretty good.

Brother, I couldn't agree more but sadly this game's netcode doesn't look like it has a fix. With way it's set up and the fact that it utilizes the infamous "gamespy" I feel safe to say we're fucked until the next MK comes out, if ever, and hopefully, we don't get fucked again ;-)

With that said, we can't expect an online perfection since there are latency issues and all that jazz, but man, this games online is seriously an abomination. At least if it had a useful trainer we could work something out.

And about Reptile, obviously I've been trolling a tiny bit but I do see the issue people have. Actually, not an issue, just a nuisance. His dash is already punishable by any competent player but that fucker spamming it continuously while you're down messing with your inputs (abusing negative edge ;-) ) AND gaining meter in the process would piss off anyone, regardless of their caliber.

IMO If the devs can't resolve this minor nuisance without having to ruin Reptile then he should remain how he is. It's annoying but it can be dealt with. I thought about the cooldown thing but that would seriously cripple that fucking little prick lizard. :bad:

 

[Levaranoia]

How old are u seriously? and if MK is your first fighting game ever, why the heck are you even writing in here? why dont u set , learn, practice and dont come up with seriously....pointless stuff :S

amen brotha

 

[Levaranoia]

IMO If the devs can't resolve this minor nuisance without having to ruin Reptile then he should remain how he is. It's annoying but it can be dealt with. I thought about the cooldown thing but that would seriously cripple that fucking little prick lizard. :bad:

I can accept that, lol@prick lizard

 

[Altaire]

Having only read the first post of this thread, I have to admit that the techroll idea is pretty good. All you'd have to do is lower the advantage on hit, and voila. I do think the dash is bullshit online in anything but a pristine connection, but hey, it's online. You take the good with the bad.

I'd say the dash will be pretty reasonable once it loses the ability to build meter and fuck with your opponent's wakeups.

 

[THTB]

Gamespy has nothing to do with the netcode...it is used for the servers.

REO and I both started playing FGs competitively around the same time (about 3 years)...Perfect Legend has been playing for roughly almost a decade...Michaelangelo, if I'm not mistaken, recently started as well.

Shin, the thing about it, is that balance ONLY matters at the highest level of play, as tiers and balance are based on the characters being used at their highest potential. Most online players do not reach that type of play, at all. Not to mention, their experiences are skewed because they are just that...online players. When you are online-only, you're only experiencing the game from that particular perspective, and as such, a lot of your tactics tend to revolve around that, though you may not even know it.

 

[16 Bit]

I posted this in another thread, but I thought you should know that the EVO champion of MK9 does NOT have any offline competition in his area. If he wants offline competition, he has to travel to another city (Cleveland, 2 hours from him) to find competition. I don't have that immediate of access to competition (Well, I do, but I'm held back due to money, work, etc...I can't travel as far and as often as I'd like). No one in NorCal really plays, so Michaelangelo doesn't have a great source, either. I don't believe Osu16Bit has competition around him. REO is in NY, but he doesn't get the opportunity to play people offline outside of once a week.

For the most part, we all play online. We just understand the problems with it, so we're not gonna suggest balance changes based on it.

True for me. 90% of my play is online. I spend a lot of time in practice mode and am smart enough to know what's lag bullshit.

But for the record, the dash punish annoys me offline too. That is a very subtle animation. It's one thing if they block a f+2,1 and I predict it's coming but when they throw it out and I happen to be blocking it's tough. It takes better reaction time than you say. Definitely stands out in this game where punishes are usually very lenient.

I guess I should go for 2,1~cutter. That way I'm not fucked if I'm slow and I still get ok damage and a safe jump if it hits. But man, screw that, I'm greedy and that's lame.

 

[shoshinsha]

Shin, the thing about it, is that balance ONLY matters at the highest level of play, as tiers and balance are based on the characters being used at their highest potential. Most online players do not reach that type of play, at all. Not to mention, their experiences are skewed because they are just that...online players. When you are online-only, you're only experiencing the game from that particular perspective, and as such, a lot of your tactics tend to revolve around that, though you may not even know it.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree. Saying balance only matters at the highest level of play is elitist and self-centered. Not calling you those things at all, but a position which assumes that only a tiny portion of the player base deserves to be considered in matters that will affect the play experience of almost everyone who owns the game is exactly that: elitist. Not only that, it's bad business.

As I said, I'm an arcade rat by upbringing. I don't have hardly any offline scene to speak of right now, seeing as I'm living on the eastern coast of Maine, but I'll likely be moving out to Norcal in 6 months or so and hope it improves then. For the time being, I spend anywhere from 3 to 15 hours a week playing, mostly in training mode doing various structured exercises that help me commit combos, traps, defensive options, and other tactics to muscle memory. I may be nowhere near "pro," but I do believe I fall into the "serious player" category. Yet I still feel that if you have a million people playing a game (just picking a random number as example, not being literal), and 995,000 of them are having an issue with something while 5,000 think it's ok, your decision should be weighted accordingly.

 

[Cburnham81]

Yet I still feel that if you have a million people playing a game (just picking a random number as example, not being literal), and 995,000 of them are having an issue with something while 5,000 think it's ok, your decision should be weighted accordingly.

The thing is there is not an issue with that "something"... there is an issue with the lag from online play. So tweaking the dash makes no sense!!

 

[THTB]

I'm sorry, but I can't agree. Saying balance only matters at the highest level of play is elitist and self-centered.

How is this elitist when this is considering that things like tier lists, matchup charts, etc, are BASED ON THE CHARACTERS BEING PLAYED AT THEIR PEAK, WHERE ALL TOOLS ARE USED TO THEIR BEST ABILITY??? You can't base balance around people who aren't even fully exploiting their character, because it's just that...they're not optimizing on everything the character can do. With that in mind, how can you base balance changes around these people as well? Answer is, you really can't, at all. How can you? Just, explain to me how can you? Besides simply listening to these guys.

With your long-time experience in FGs, man, you should understand this more than a lot of people out there...which is what I'm not getting.

 

[BookBurning]

Alright guys, I'm joining the THTB cavalry here because to be honest a ton of you are pissing me off and need to shut the hell up. You want me to be blunt and you want me to say how it is? Well here it is.

You guys seriously are in no position what fucking soever to make legitimate complaints about a character. ESPECIALLY something that will affect offline play and why? So you can get some easier wins on some fucking laggy internet based bullshit? Online can be fun and has its uses but when you're basing your input on character related moves off of a LAGGY online service then you just seriously need to stop posting.

Reptiles dash is more than punishable. Not good enough for you? Well then go play an easier game. By nerfing Reptiles dash you would essentially be BREAKING the entire character because so much of his game revolves around it. Don't you get that? You wouldn't be "toning him down." You'd be fucking demolishing him.

So instead of crying and mashing keys on your keyboard with uneducated responses and input, why don't you actually take a deep breath and think before you type.

Have you ever once stopped to think that maybe THTB, a guy who has MAINED REPTILE from the VERY BEGINNING and has consistently played WELL with him might know what the fuck he's talking about when it comes to his character? It's not elitist, it's just cold hard fact that he may know more about Reptile than you. You, who play online and you who most likely haven't actually deconstructed the character to the level THTB has.

We all play online and guess what, I have trouble with Raiden but you don't see me bawling because his teleport is hard to punish online. Why? Because offline it's not near as hard. In the actual game playing the way its supposed to run, it's not as hard. SOMEWHAT challenging? Sure. But that's where practice mode comes into play.

You guys spewing these comments like diarrhea all make me want to go bite a wire.

 

[THTB]

I hope you didn't mind, Book, but I had to edit your post a little bit to clean it up so that people aren't insulted in anyway by anything.

 

[Cburnham81]

Alright guys, I'm joining the THTB cavalry here because to be honest a ton of you are pissing me off and need to shut the hell up. You want me to be blunt and you want me to say how it is? Well here it is.

You guys seriously are in no position what fucking soever to make legitimate complaints about a character. ESPECIALLY something that will affect offline play and why? So you can get some easier wins on some fucking laggy internet based bullshit? Online can be fun and has its uses but when you're basing your input on character related moves off of a LAGGY online service then you just seriously need to stop posting.

Reptiles dash is more than punishable. Not good enough for you? Well then go play an easier game. By nerfing Reptiles dash you would essentially be BREAKING the entire character because so much of his game revolves around it. Don't you get that? You wouldn't be "toning him down." You'd be fucking demolishing him.

So instead of crying and mashing keys on your keyboard with uneducated responses and input, why don't you actually take a deep breath and think before you type.

Have you ever once stopped to think that maybe THTB, a guy who has MAINED REPTILE from the VERY BEGINNING and has consistently played WELL with him might know what the fuck he's talking about when it comes to his character? It's not elitist, it's just cold hard fact that he may know more about Reptile than you. You, who play online and you who most likely haven't actually deconstructed the character to the level THTB has.

We all play online and guess what, I have trouble with Raiden but you don't see me bawling because his teleport is hard to punish online. Why? Because offline it's not near as hard. In the actual game playing the way its supposed to run, it's not as hard. SOMEWHAT challenging? Sure. But that's where practice mode comes into play.

You guys spewing these comments like diarrhea all make me want to go bite a wire.

:amen:
This man speaks the truth

 

[hardwire]

oh lawdy lawdy there cant possibly be any thing wrong with the guy we main nope no way in hell


wtf is wrong with 90% of the community that want his dash fixed gawd they must be retarded



is that how yall think

stfu reptile needs a god damn nerf kung lau needs one raiden needs one cyrax needs one and we all know it

 

[THTB]

Everyone in your book needs a nerf and Smoke ALWAYS needs a buff.

But for real, this is coming from the same guy who thinks Smoke should still be buffed. Good god, after seeing good Smokes in action as of late, I can't lie...I'd fear a good Smoke over a lot of characters now. This is why I find a lot of your comments on this stuff beyond laughable at times.

 

[shoshinsha]

How is this elitist when this is considering that things like tier lists, matchup charts, etc, are BASED ON THE CHARACTERS BEING PLAYED AT THEIR PEAK, WHERE ALL TOOLS ARE USED TO THEIR BEST ABILITY??? You can't base balance around people who aren't even fully exploiting their character, because it's just that...they're not optimizing on everything the character can do. With that in mind, how can you base balance changes around these people as well? Answer is, you really can't, at all. How can you? Just, explain to me how can you? Besides simply listening to these guys.

With your long-time experience in FGs, man, you should understand this more than a lot of people out there...which is what I'm not getting.

That's the thing, man: I do get it. I totally get your perspective and that of other serious players. In a lot of ways, I share it. My point is that our perspective on the game isn't even anywhere CLOSE to the majority playing this game. And that's what counts. I'm not saying nerf the dash to hell. I'm not even DEFINITELY saying nerf it at all. I'm saying that it should be looked at, and that solutions might be found that would improve the play experience of the other 95% of the player base WITHOUT seriously hurting the hardcores. For example, if it's already easily punishable by full combo against a good player, then my suggestion to give it a significant recoil animation won't change that at all, but it WILL reduce some of the abuse that casual and online players experience from it. The problem I'm trying to highlight is that if you automatically discount this entire, enormous portion of the player base as irrelevant to balance, then nobody even looks for solutions like that, and they get screwed over, and you wind up with a lot of disenfranchised people who now think "MK sucks" or whatever.

 

[THTB]

If it's just a simple animation swap with exact same frame data, then yeah, by all means. And I can understand that one and don't particularly mind it if done like that. But still, a casual gamer's perspective is what counts for a lot of things...but balance really just isn't one of those things simply because they aren't truly affected by it. They may feel to be, but they aren't.

 

[Levaranoia]

That's the thing, man: I do get it. I totally get your perspective and that of other serious players. In a lot of ways, I share it. My point is that our perspective on the game isn't even anywhere CLOSE to the majority playing this game. And that's what counts. I'm not saying nerf the dash to hell. I'm not even DEFINITELY saying nerf it at all. I'm saying that it should be looked at, and that solutions might be found that would improve the play experience of the other 95% of the player base WITHOUT seriously hurting the hardcores. For example, if it's already easily punishable by full combo against a good player, then my suggestion to give it a significant recoil animation won't change that at all, but it WILL reduce some of the abuse that casual and online players experience from it. The problem I'm trying to highlight is that if you automatically discount this entire, enormous portion of the player base as irrelevant to balance, then nobody even looks for solutions like that, and they get screwed over, and you wind up with a lot of disenfranchised people who now think "MK sucks" or whatever.

The thing is it doesn't need significant recoil. It doesn't hit in the air, it doesn't set up for big combos, it doesn't have the option of being cancelled, it doesn't have armor on it, and it keeps reptile grounded. It's a quick poke tool, mobility and to make sure people can't cross you up. Reptile doesn't need to eat a 50 percent combo every time his dash is blocked when he's only risking it for like 11 percent damage. Even with teleport moves that cause damage they do have a recoil but for the most part you have to juggle them b4 they land and can only get like 20-30 percent damage. If they make it have gigantic recoil like kabal's then it will definitely make the move useless if you are for sure going to eat like 50 percent damage every time on a misjudged dash.

 

[THTB]

About teleports that throw you into rolling recoil on block, or any attack like that for that matter (excluding Mileena's roll), can be punished with a full grounded combo. Except for Mileena, not one character with a move like this gets away with only 20-30% lost at higher levels of play. You get blocked vs Kitana, Ermac, Smoke, Reptile, Rain, so on and so forth...you die.

 

[Levaranoia]

About teleports that throw you into rolling recoil on block, or any attack like that for that matter (excluding Mileena's roll), can be punished with a full grounded combo. Except for Mileena, not one character with a move like this gets away with only 20-30% lost at higher levels of play. You get blocked vs Kitana, Ermac, Smoke, Reptile, Rain, so on and so forth...you die.

Oh really, I didn't know that. I always thought you had to punish them while in the spin because I believed that they were safe when they landed. None of my offline buddies play those type of teleport characters and Ive basically only only played against those characters online. As well as I don't like to block lol. What's a good punish for raiden's blocked superman? Just try and dash up and do a combo starting with 3 or 1? Because where raiden recoils and lands varies.

 

[sLeeK]

oh lawdy lawdy there cant possibly be any thing wrong with the guy we main nope no way in hell


wtf is wrong with 90% of the community that want his dash fixed gawd they must be retarded



is that how yall think

stfu reptile needs a god damn nerf kung lau needs one raiden needs one cyrax needs one and we all know it

Honestly, you need to keep your mouth shut. A word of advice if you're going to try and hold an argument learn to spell/put a damn sentence together. What you posted has been said 1k times so what is the point of continuing to post garbage like that? Have you read what well known MK players have said about this issue? Apparently not. Do us all a favor and either improve your timing and learn how to counter OR go play another game, pacman sounds just fine for someone like you.