Here's how you balance Reptile.

[xxteefxx]

Heres what i think would be perfect for dash, since no reptile in here can handle more recovery time(no kung lao player thought the spin needed it either). Anyway,

1. Just make the block stun animation more noticable, he can still block just as fast but his body leans farther back or something.

2. Keep dash as it is but make the acid hand not an over head (just waiting for the furious reptiles now). But that hand / slide mix up is so damn good, and the acid hand is perfectly safe on block. Even if they block the acid hand ducking your still not getting punished.

3. Keep the dash and over head acid hand as is, but give the acid hand -6 frames on block, with no push back. Even Kung Laos overhead hat / low hat mix can be punished on either move, -6 frames on a blocked low hat is still better than a completely safe low hat am i right? Could you Reptiles not hanle only being punished by a little down poke from most characters?

1- very possible why not....even if they added 1 or 2 frames extra on block. Block elbow dash never been the issue....good reptile players will always avoid Elbow dash being blocked.
so it's not that biggie in my opinion...though, i think it will be kinda Lame if they did that because it's alrdy punishable as well as Other chars need to be either buffed first or toned down ! lol (hint hint, Kung lao Pressure, Cyrax Resets, Smokes IA TP, cage EX fireball frame trap, Shang insane corner presure, Kabals Offensive mode....etc)
but again...i am with it
also, if they added any frame extra for dash in general, it will ruin his BNB completely. making his combo ability starts from one combo ONLY! which is easily punishable (1,2,2). so i would say the block thing, is not a bad idea if people find it fair.

2-about the acid hand, i mentioned the reason. Also dont forget that slide is A MAJOR gamble! if slide is blocked, reptile can lose up to half his health. so seriously, acid hand not being med is a complete kill for reptile on pressure.

3- I see a blocked low hat is the same exact approach of block elbow dash. hard to punish outside the bracket of Quick pokes, footsies or a quick special(E.G reptile dash or kenshi Armor moves...etc). so if acid hand had the same property, Reptile will also be really hindered. the problem with reptile, is that the reason why he's good offensive is that he can reversal a lot of footsies or risky attempts with Elbow dash. Let alone acid hand keeps the pressure flowing. i dont see Acid hand being that major threat in my opinion cause it's the second main tool for reptile, which it's not a big deal in my opinion. the pressure after cr+4~ acid on block can be stopped by a lot of options! specially if reptile recklessly spammed it. i would say, if they gonna nerf it by adding more frame recovery, then the push back is REALY needed....but beside that, i would say, i would like to test it out first and see!

 

[xxteefxx]

All I can say is punishing the dash is easier said than done. I don't care about reptile's situation with his "unfair" dash, but the whole thing about trying to stop it with a poke or sweep is sound, but we're not characters from fist of the north star. There is no way you can tell when reptile is going to do a dash. You hear the noise, and you either get hit or are holding block. Not even pros would be stopping it with pokes. I've been meaning to ask about something quite specific about this dash anyway. It will only hit someone if they are on the ground correct? I want to test out ermac's up+4 against reptile's dash. If what I've heard about up+4 is correct and my own presumption on the elbow dash is true than it should beat out the dash. But only if it only hits you when you're on the ground.

hey kill.how u doing?

Nobody said that Poke stuffing initial elbow dash is the only or most reliable way of punishing at all. it's one of the ways, as an EXTRA mention.

Elbow dash can be countered by:
1-Stuffable by any armor mitigation move in the game. and some special moves without armor can even punish it
2-Punishable on block by mainly the whole cast
EXTRA:
-Far away distance, NJP
-Pokes on initial starter (Very character dependable, some can and some cant. Kenshi for example, d+1 is 6 frames. it can easily stuff the elbow dash...try it out ur self. while someone like kratos, is impossible to do so on reaction)

PS: reptile elbow dash is not considered a wake up attack and not reliable! the cpu in practice mode do it and SAYS that it's a wake up attack...though if you tried it yourself, it doesnt work as wake up attack. this is a bug happens to a lot of the characters in practice mode as well. also, reptile elbow dash on wake up, is not reliable at all in most of the situations (because it's not considered a wake up attack)
Example (NW f+3,1. )

THTB also answered you in his last post.

 

[ZeroEffect]

if Acid hand is not med, the all his combos will be block low at the end! making reptile completely useless....for godsake, Smoke will be a better mix uper than reptile due to his fast Sweep.

Well, not exactly... there is the throw option that many other characters need to use. I don't have any issue with acid hand, but you don't need a high low mixup to use mixups in this game due to throws being guaranteed against block. it'd be the same thing for about the same damage.

 

[cgerrr]

Just a fun fact:
Through the whole (streamed part of) recent VSM tourney the Elbow Dash was punished on block by combo only once (by CD). We are talking about 1 hour of Reptile footage vs 1 block punish.

In the list of culprits, which wasn’t able to punish Elbow dash on block even once (on stream) there are people like REO, CD jr., Classy.

Proof link:
http://ru.twitch.tv/kombatnetwork/b/291831344







_

 

[THTB]

Yet, I play REO a good amount of time and he's punished my elbow on a consistent basis. Online. With Kitana. Who has a 3-frame window to do so.

 

[xxteefxx]

Well, not exactly... there is the throw option that many other characters need to use. I don't have any issue with acid hand, but you don't need a high low mixup to use mixups in this game due to throws being guaranteed against block. it'd be the same thing for about the same damage.

yo yo man!
True, but throw option is for everyone in general. in that case reptile will have two option:

-Regular guard pressure into low finisher
-or halt in middle and throw

Though u didnt notice. If any of reptile low finisher are block he's DONE!. slide is punishable and also doesnt lead to ANy good mix ups after wake up. 3,2,4 is the same case!! and they are punishable!
the only option were reptile will stay safe after a TC is his Acid hand, because all his TC are not safe on block except for 1,2,2,1.

1,2,2,1 last hit pushes away and nul /reset the frames afterward. Non linkable into any specials as well as first two hits are duckable. hence, it's really useless beside the bracket of 1,2,2~ chain into specials.

so if acid hand is gone or played with to become useless. simply put Reptile wont be able to do anything but either 1,2,2,1 (reset distances and frames), or 3,2,1~ slide or 3,2,4 or 3,2~ throw (or desired block string into throw)

by means he only has one reliable option, Pressure with TC into Throw. anything else just block all high and then last hit block low and punish after.

Compared to someone like smoke. Smoke has a really fast sweep and pokes (unlike reptile, having the slowest pokes, sweeps and TC starter). so smoke can

-3,d+1,2 (High) (med) (High)
-b+2,3 (Med) (high) (SO FAST as well!)
-Sweep
-Throw mix ups after TC's or pokes or whatever (desired option)

 

[Sao87]

I just wish they would fix his hit box so that things like Cages EX Force Balls hit him if he is stand blocking. He's to good to have a hit box advantage that allows him to escape high pressure.

 

[sLeeK]

Does anyone know if NRS did anything to reptiles dash with a ninja patch or is this possibly a glitch or am I just missing something? I was using reptile tonight and I was playing against a kratos/another character forget who it was because of my fit of rage. Okay pretty much my elbow dash went right through the char. so there was no elbow to the face animation reptile just dashed through the opponent.. I am so confused, PLEASE tell me there is something I am missing here.

 

[THTB]

That happens on occasion...it's definitely a glitch.

I just wish they would fix his hit box so that things like Cages EX Force Balls hit him if he is stand blocking. He's to good to have a hit box advantage that allows him to escape high pressure.

The same hitbox issue gives him a heavy disadvantage vs Mileena, actually.

 

[PND OmegaK]

I just wish they would fix his hit box so that things like Cages EX Force Balls hit him if he is stand blocking. He's to good to have a hit box advantage that allows him to escape high pressure.

Slipping through Cage's antics makes me so, so happy. If only every character had hitboxes like Reptile.

 

[THTB]

It's a weird difference in hitboxes that makes some matchups better, but gives him one that's gay lol.

 

[Raiman]

It's a weird difference in hitboxes that makes some matchups better, but gives him one that's gay lol.

so hey fix the hitbox issues, and then we Johnny cage and Raiden players have some pressure game vs reptile, and you Reptiles win more against Mileenas. Win win right?

 

[shoshinsha]

I've said this before and I'll say it again: there's no reason at all not to give elbow dash a longer recoil on block. Now I'll explain:

1. The move is actually faster than the human eye/brain can perceive, meaning that the only way to punish it is to read it, block BEFORE it's activated, and then have your punish ready.

2. Because of the above, the only reason to keep it with such a short recoil window is to make it safer to GUESS when to throw it out. The only difference making it more punishable would cause is that players would have to plan when to use it and set it up, just like any other move.

3. Other characters who have moves like that (teleport punches/kicks, etc.), are slower, don't set up combos or do any more damage than it does, and are WAY more punishable (the floating spin animation, for example).

4. And finally, most people defending the dash's current form are arguing that it's already easy to punish with full combo on block. If that's the case, then making it a little more punishable should make no difference whatsoever.

 

[dribirut]

I've said this before and I'll say it again: there's no reason at all not to give elbow dash a longer recoil on block. Now I'll explain:

1. The move is actually faster than the human eye/brain can perceive, meaning that the only way to punish it is to read it, block BEFORE it's activated, and then have your punish ready.

2. Because of the above, the only reason to keep it with such a short recoil window is to make it safer to GUESS when to throw it out. The only difference making it more punishable would cause is that players would have to plan when to use it and set it up, just like any other move.

3. Other characters who have moves like that (teleport punches/kicks, etc.), are slower, don't set up combos or do any more damage than it does, and are WAY more punishable (the floating spin animation, for example).

4. And finally, most people defending the dash's current form are arguing that it's already easy to punish with full combo on block. If that's the case, then making it a little more punishable should make no difference whatsoever.

almost every character has an annoying powerful move..
kabals spam zoning and that almost infinite thing
raidens teleport
kung laos everything
mileenas low ass hitbox that does not allow you to jump on her
kitanas millions of fans on screen
subs ice clonse
cyrax insane reset damage
scorpions ublockable instant hellfire
quanchis insane mixup game
kanos knife spam
skarlets knife throw spam
jaxs infinite

everyones got something

 

[shoshinsha]

almost every character has an annoying powerful move..
kabals spam zoning and that almost infinite thing
raidens teleport
kung laos everything
mileenas low ass hitbox that does not allow you to jump on her
kitanas millions of fans on screen
subs ice clonse
cyrax insane reset damage
scorpions ublockable instant hellfire
quanchis insane mixup game
kanos knife spam
skarlets knife throw spam
jaxs infinite

everyones got something

That isn't at all relevant to what I said. My post didn't suggest that Reptile shouldn't have a good move. My post was all about why elbow dash is disproportionately good as compared with similar moves other characters have. Moreover, I was showing how a particular proposed change to elbow dash is would not only bring it in line with similar moves, but that (if the naysayers are being truthful) such a change wouldn't actually be a drastic nerf to Reptile at all.

 

[CitizenSnips]

This really should be the way they nerf elbow dash if they do:

1. Slightly more frames when people block (I think it's fine right now, but seems like most disagree)
2. No meter gain if you miss the target.
3. Allow the enemy to roll (proposed by THTB I believe)
4. Maybe lower the damage (11% down to 8%)

Lowering it's start-up speed I think is unnecessary. Yes, it is a pain in the ass to predict if you aren't used to it, but I think it should remain that way. The worst that happens is that you eat damage. This is why I think lowering the damage would be better than lowering the speed. 3% less isn't a whole lot, but it's something.

 

[THTB]

so hey fix the hitbox issues, and then we Johnny cage and Raiden players have some pressure game vs reptile, and you Reptiles win more against Mileenas. Win win right?

The thing is, I don't even care about it (And I'm sure I'm not alone in this), and in actuality, Cage is fine despite this (Raiden sorta suffers, but there's other problems he has vs Reptile anyway). I somewhat like the issue causing the Mileena matchup to be difficult, as well.

 

[salvificblood]

4. Maybe lower the damage (11% down to 8%)

I think that's unfair on Reptile given it's his only available punish for Kung Lao's spin...

 

[RapZiLLa54]

The thing is, I don't even care about it (And I'm sure I'm not alone in this), and in actuality, Cage is fine despite this (Raiden sorta suffers, but there's other problems he has vs Reptile anyway). I somewhat like the issue causing the Mileena matchup to be difficult, as well.

Why do you like it?

 

[FatalTragedy]

I never had too big an issue vs Reptile's dash. Of course the ratio of dash-spammers to actual players is tremendously disproportionate. So he has one fast move to keep you in check. It's also his mode of transit. Startup is fine.

 

[Theme]

Ive been playing Reptile for about 4 hours now... not once was I punished for dash. I played ladder on EXPERT and online about 20+ games so far, Reptile exclusively. That doesnt mean anything though, so I will continue with my experiment.

 

[dribirut]

Ive been playing Reptile for about 4 hours now... not once was I punished for dash. I played ladder on EXPERT and online about 20+ games so far, Reptile exclusively. That doesnt mean anything though, so I will continue with my experiment.

i guess the peopel you played werent very good because i know every character can punish with uppercut and a few with full combos. ( liu kang, kung lao, i think sektor to with the low hit one, i know im forgetting some)

 

[Theme]

i guess the peopel you played werent very good because i know every character can punish with uppercut and a few with full combos. ( liu kang, kung lao, i think sektor to with the low hit one, i know im forgetting some)

Problem is if you arent expecting it, you aren't ready for the punish. The window of opportunity is really really small for the elbow dash. I'm not getting punished at all, just played another 10 or so games. But I have been grabbed a couple of times, and it doesnt matter if it was punished or blocked, since I hold block after the dash anyways. That seems to be a semi effective way to punish.

 

[Raiman]

ok reptiles, I take back everything i said about reptiles dash being cheap. I finally found a good reptile i could practice with online, and getting that experience i've realized reptile isn't that bad. Even with my new experience against reptile though i still agree reptile beats raiden 6-4. But hey, every character needs at least one bad matchup right.

Now me beeing a Raiden player i wasn't used to having to work that hard against any other character because well, raiden only has one bad matchup. So i over reacted when i would be in a ranked match and lose to a reptile and not get to keep practicing against him, now i'm better a punishing a dash with raidens 9 frame 121 string with a full combo. I also learned to escape reptiles double dash from full screen pressure by just jumping back after the first dash, it works very well. I also started to get out of reptiles slow forceball into into double dash by just jumping over force ball and then superman to avoid the dash. that also works very well.

Although it would be nice if dash had a few more recovery on block, i wouldn't mind if it stayed as is. I do still however think that a blocked dash should be more noticeable by making reptile be pushed back a little more, again, no more recovery, just more pushback. not really a nerf, more like a little tweak.

 

[dribirut]

God people got pist off at me today in the tym koth.. i got a good streak going and people got really pist off about me dashing.. i played two really good mileenas and honestly because of the 7-3 matchups all i can do is dash against her..