Here's how you balance Reptile.

[Raiman]

-Add recovery frames to elbow on block: SYKE NAH! Really, you guys can't react to 21 frames of blockstun? Watch Tom Brady vs Arturo at EVO. WATCH IT. No really, watch it. Then come back to me and go "Add recovery frames". I will proceed to laugh if you do. But seriously, 21 frames of blockstun combined with 36 recovery frames. IF YOU CAN'T REACT WITH A JAB, STOP PLAYING FIGHTING GAMES.

It would be really funny if raidens superman had the same recovery and blockstun as reptiles dash and see you in the Raiden forums saying how cheap it is. Hey are we all Tom Brady? We cant all react that fast or be that good or we'd all be sponsored MK players. And dont give me any crap about teleport either because it can be stomped by just about anything now days, ESPECIALLY reptile dash. Or maybe Raiden could throw a projectile then immediatley superman so I could stop right in front of you so you have to just sit their and block taking chip damage from the projectile and the string and then end it with a completetly safe vicinity blast(acid hand). But wait vicinity blast wiffs on half the characters doesn't it(Reptile). Having Reptiles dash be like nomad dash on block is anything but rediculous. Its the fastest damn special in the game for gods sake. Spin has been buffed how many times, people still want that changed, hell thats even easilly punishable now. But please leave poor poor Reptile alone

 

[sLeeK]

Can I have an informative reply on why Reps dash needs a nerf, please? I don't understand this or where this all comes from. THTB do you personally think he needs a nerf? If so why? I have used him since day one and if I am playing a good player I ALWAYS get punished and this is online I'm talking about. So what is the problem here?

 

[shoshinsha]

So a blocked elbow dash puts the blocker in 21 frames of block stun, and Reptile into 36 frames of recovery. Is that right?

 

[THTB]

A million and one people were trying to get the word out that quick low pokes punished Kano's upball, even online. It didn't work and NRS in their infinite wisdom delivered the truly bullshit nerf of increased recovery AND startup. The WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFs echoed across the land, but the damage was done.

So advice to Reptile fanatics from one who's been there: Nothing is going to save your current dash. Nothing. You can stick to your guns with increasingly exasperated calls to just jab punish or whatever, "going down with the ship" so to speak, or you can do the smart thing and start bombarding NRS with suggestions for substantial but reasonable nerfs in the hopes that it will avert a complete kneejerk overkill reaction like former S-tier Kano got.

The choice is yours.

The difference between upball and elbow is that, for most characters, it was a 2 to 3-frame punish window with their fastest attack (d1, or in Reptile's case, elbow). A majority of the cast couldn't punish upball for anything reasonable...and this was a propertyo f one of the fastest specials in the game.

Elbow is punishable by every character's jab in a non-doujin-style game where characters can get like 20-30% for landing one. And the window for most characters is, at the worst, a 5-frame window. A 5-frame window, at worst, for punishing a move you generally will have about 27 frames before you can react to (6 frames to trigger 21 frames of blockstun) is VERY easy to deal with. You seriously have to have terrible reaction and timing NOT to be able to. That's why elbow has been untouched thus far.

 

[Levaranoia]

It would be really funny if raidens superman had the same recovery and blockstun as reptiles dash and see you in the Raiden forums saying how cheap it is. Hey are we all Tom Brady? We cant all react that fast or be that good or we'd all be sponsored MK players. And dont give me any crap about teleport either because it can be stomped by just about anything now days, ESPECIALLY reptile dash. Or maybe Raiden could throw a projectile then immediatley superman so I could stop right in front of you so you have to just sit their and block taking chip damage from the projectile and the string and then end it with a completetly safe vicinity blast(acid hand). But wait vicinity blast wiffs on half the characters doesn't it(Reptile). Having Reptiles dash be like nomad dash on block is anything but rediculous. Its the fastest damn special in the game for gods sake. Spin has been buffed how many times, people still want that changed, hell thats even easilly punishable now. But please leave poor poor Reptile alone

Raiden's superman can punish you a full screen and put u in the corner. Raiden's superman can also be done in the air. Raiden has a fast teleport to move around, reptile uses a whiffed dash to do this. As well as raiden's bounce back from a blocked superman varies. Raiden's teleport if your opponent is blocking is completely safe and puts raiden at advantage. Raiden also has the option of doing his string into a teleport and going for a different mix up. Vicinity blast wasn't intended to be a block string, it was made as an anti air and to continue juggling character's in the corner. Having reptile's dash recover like nomad dash on block is completely retarded because for one thing it isn't a combo starter, it can't be canceled, and it doesn't hit aerial opponents (all things that kabal's does) and the damn move is already punished with a full combo on block as is. Your whole argument is wrong and has just been dis-proven by me.

 

[cgerrr]

Okay, for those trying to balance out Reptile, here's the perfect way to do it.

-Remove Invisible Forceball: This one is a given. No explanation necessary.

-Allow opponents to techroll near immediately after being hit with elbow: This one solves 2 problems in one...Reptile building meter and messing with wakeup for hitting you, and being able to punish you with elbow, putting himself in the corner, and then dashing to get out. Of course, this change makes Sub vs Reptile a little bit more difficult, since this change makes using elbow on a cornered Sub not even remotely worth it. But it does fix a problem without adding on layers upon layers of other problems.

-Add recovery frames to elbow on block: SYKE NAH! Really, you guys can't react to 21 frames of blockstun? Watch Tom Brady vs Arturo at EVO. WATCH IT. No really, watch it. Then come back to me and go "Add recovery frames". I will proceed to laugh if you do. But seriously, 21 frames of blockstun combined with 36 recovery frames. IF YOU CAN'T REACT WITH A JAB, STOP PLAYING FIGHTING GAMES.
…

-No other changes: Yeah, I'm being serious...no trolling. Really, Reptile is fixed after the two actual changes. You have to fundamentally change him in order to make him any more "balanced" and that's something you really don't wanna do in a fighting game. Change those two things, and he's relatively the same, with less "cheese", as some of you want to put it.

Elbow is punishable by every character's jab in a non-doujin-style game where characters can get like 20-30% for landing one. And the window for most characters is, at the worst, a 5-frame window. A 5-frame window, at worst, for punishing a move you generally will have about 27 frames before you can react to (6 frames to trigger 21 frames of blockstun) is VERY easy to deal with. You seriously have to have terrible reaction and timing NOT to be able to. That's why elbow has been untouched thus far.

There are a couple of problems with Elbow Dash in general:
1. Fastest move which gives Reptile one of the best mobility in the game.

2. Again fastest move which allow interrupts/reversals with 11%/23% damage as a bonus, compared to everyone’s 3% (excluding Raiden/Kung of course).

3. Allows decent free meter building and great mix-ups.

4. And of course one of the hardest move in the game to punish, due to subtle blocked animation, fast animation of the move and really small punish window.



Let’s expand on punishing Elbow and all related problems a bit:
__1. Everyone omit the fact that MK is not Tekken, GG or MvC and you need to actually release the block button and AFAIK can not buffer any move while blocking, which detracts frames from your punish window(s) (of course if you're not a robot).
Ok, elbow dash is -15 on block, most jabs are 9-10, and thus you have 5-6 frames to punish. Typical human has 0,2 seconds reaction time in ideal environment and 5-6 frames is 0,1 seconds. Detract additional 1-2 frames because of block release and we got even less than 0,1 seconds. Catch my drift?

Ok the move itself is 21, however it does not change the fact that you still need to distinguish blocked or wiffed Elbow Dash just for 0,1 second – which is impossible and complete guessing which allows Reptile escape punish much more than needed (not to mention pressure or full combo for Reptile if op guesses wrong).


__2. The second biggest problem of Elbow Dash is match ups disparity - easy example:
You managed to block punish reptile Elbow but your character’s most efficient combo does not start with the jab, thus you need to settle for less damaging one, while other particular chars can do their most damaging combos in this situation.
I.e. this situation represents match up imbalance caused by one single move, moreover which is easily fixable without any substantial consequences for Reptile:

Add recovery frames for Elbow Dash on block.

What will it change for Reptile players game-play/combo wise? Nothing.
Will Reptiles lose more because of the more consistent Elbow Dash punishing? Probably.
Is it justified to lose because of the blocked full combo punishable move? Yes.


As for other ‘balance’ suggestions:
I don’t think that reducing character individuality by adding cool down or allowing to instant tech roll (which may deny lizard-like back and forth Elbow dash movements) after Elbow dash on hit is a good thing for the game. We already lost Smoke OTG and soon Cyrax will lose most of his combo-ability. Enough is enough.


_

 

[Raiman]

Raiden's superman can punish you a full screen and put u in the corner. Raiden's superman can also be done in the air. Raiden has a fast teleport to move around, reptile uses a whiffed dash to do this. As well as raiden's bounce back from a blocked superman varies. Raiden's teleport if your opponent is blocking is completely safe and puts raiden at advantage. Raiden also has the option of doing his string into a teleport and going for a different mix up. Vicinity blast wasn't intended to be a block string, it was made as an anti air and to continue juggling character's in the corner. Having reptile's dash recover like nomad dash on block is completely retarded because for one thing it isn't a combo starter, it can't be canceled, and it doesn't hit aerial opponents (all things that kabal's does) and the damn move is already punished with a full combo on block as is. Your whole argument is wrong and has just been dis-proven by me.

No, all you did was point out raidens strengths and none of his weakneses, you didn't accomplish anything buddy, but show how terrible you are if you think anything raiden has is better than reptiles dash. Elbow dash stompsa on anything Raiden does. I cant wait for your characters special to get nerfed just like every other godlike special move. teleport, OTG bomb, spin, upball, and next up in line, elbow dash.

Also, the post above mine says everything that needs to be said.

 

[Levaranoia]

No, all you did was point out raidens strengths and none of his weakneses, you didn't accomplish anything buddy, but show how terrible you are if you think anything raiden has is better than reptiles dash. Elbow dash stompsa on anything Raiden does. I cant wait for your characters special to get nerfed just like every other godlike special move. teleport, OTG bomb, spin, upball, and next up in line, elbow dash.

Also, the post above mine says everything that needs to be said.

LOL If Raiden's teleport is so easy to punish on reaction then I don't see how you have such a hard time to punishing reptile's dash on block. As he's standing right in front of you and u just need to start your string. My friend uses raiden and I know for a fact he can punish me with his 334 string on block no problem. There's also a big difference between reptile's dash and raiden's superman and that is it can be done in the air and comboed into via an aerial jump punch and jump kick. Raiden's superman comes out ridiculously fast as well and is hard to react to as well and pushes you to the other side of the damn screen. Even when you block it the thing has a weird recoil where sometimes you cant even punish him. Raiden definitely has advantage if your blocking and he teleports as there is frames to come out of block and frames to turn around. This is already a known fact. You need to take your own advice and learn to be psychic.

 

[Massive Kano]

That's why elbow has been untouched thus far.

Key phrase being "thus far." Every indication is that the sucker is going to be touched and soon. I'm just saying that denial about that isn't going to help the process go down smoothly and may even hurt.

 

[Random_Name_63]

May I offer a suggestion on one of these two balancing issues?

Remove regular Invisibility FBs during standard Invisibility, but allow Invisible FBs during EX Invisibility.

 

[Necrocyte]

Elbow Dash causes you (the person who blocked the elbow dash) to wait 21 frames (i.e. 21 frames of block stun). Meanwhile, the Reptile is vulnerable for 36 frames (i.e. 36 recovery frames). And 36 - 21 = 15 (i.e. Elbow Dash is -15 on block). You have 15 frames to punish.

Throws are 10 frames for every character.

^^^^^
the riddler speaks the truth.

i get punished by a throw a few times vs a player who recognizes it, and i use it way less. i respect the punish. its simple to punish, even online. u press 1 button to punish it. i've never had anyone GOOD complain about it. i highly doubt NRS will touch it. it doesn't leave you guessing what to do next or what is coming next.

in short if ur not good enough to get a jab combo going off of it then do as follows: block. throw. TADAAAAAA

 

[Random_Name_63]

Very true, Necrocyte.

The only complaints I've had about Dash come from those that don't know how to counter it. I cringe when it's blocked, but very few seem to realize Reptile's disadvantage in that situation.

 

[Lyuben]

Very true, Necrocyte.

The only complaints I've had about Dash come from those that don't know hot to counter it. I cringe when it's blocked, but very few seem to realize Reptile's disadvantage in that situation.

Lovely dodging of the issue. It isn't punishment. Its the screwing up of wake ups and the spam of it for meter when reptile knocks someone down. But I agree, it can be punished. But that is not the main issue. Just like with Kung's spin. It is punishable, but it stops pressure, cross ups and is a launcher as well as being among the very fastest moves in the game. So many believe that the issue is punishment, its not.

 

[Raiman]

LOL If Raiden's teleport is so easy to punish on reaction then I don't see how you have such a hard time to punishing reptile's dash on block. As he's standing right in front of you and u just need to start your string. My friend uses raiden and I know for a fact he can punish me with his 334 string on block no problem. There's also a big difference between reptile's dash and raiden's superman and that is it can be done in the air and comboed into via an aerial jump punch and jump kick. Raiden's superman comes out ridiculously fast as well and is hard to react to as well and pushes you to the other side of the damn screen. Even when you block it the thing has a weird recoil where sometimes you cant even punish him. Raiden definitely has advantage if your blocking and he teleports as there is frames to come out of block and frames to turn around. This is already a known fact. You need to take your own advice and learn to be psychic.

if you cant punish teleport every single time its used with dash then theres a problem, i dont even use reptile hardly and when another raiden is picked i use reptile for this reason. Ok so if reptiles dash is blocked you have 15 frames to punish it right?. a throw is 10 frames, witch means you have a whole 5 frames to react and then move your finger over to the throw button. Can you move your finger 1 frame faster than reptiles dash? i'm not saying it cant be done but 5 frames, come on guys your being rediculous, would 10 frames be so much to ask for. I think you have more time than 5 frames to react to teleport. ALOT more

 

[Levaranoia]

Lovely dodging of the issue. It isn't punishment. Its the screwing up of wake ups and the spam of it for meter when reptile knocks someone down. But I agree, it can be punished. But that is not the main issue. Just like with Kung's spin. It is punishable, but it stops pressure, cross ups and is a launcher as well as being among the very fastest moves in the game. So many believe that the issue is punishment, its not.

But that's what the move is for. I don't see how its a launcher tho unless your talking about ex into slide which is no big deal. Would you say ice clone is fair? It stops pressure as well. Would you say nut punch is fair that stops people from being knocked down which then nullifies any type of wake up attack. There are lots of characters who have the ability to nullify stuff..

 

[Lyuben]

But that's what the move is for. I don't see how its a launcher tho unless your talking about ex into slide which is no big deal. Would you say ice clone is fair? It stops pressure as well. Would you say nut punch is fair that stops people from being knocked down which then nullifies any type of wake up attack. There are lots of characters who have the ability to nullify stuff..

You misunderstood. I was not talking about reptiles slide stopping cross ups, pressure and being a launcher. I was talking about spin. What I meant was that people often say that spin and dash need to be more punishable, what I was saying was that the main issue with both is not punishment and I listed some things.

 

[Levaranoia]

if you cant punish teleport every single time its used with dash then theres a problem, i dont even use reptile hardly and when another raiden is picked i use reptile for this reason. Ok so if reptiles dash is blocked you have 15 frames to punish it right?. a throw is 10 frames, witch means you have a whole 5 frames to react and then move your finger over to the throw button. Can you move your finger 1 frame faster than reptiles dash? i'm not saying it cant be done but 5 frames, come on guys your being rediculous, would 10 frames be so much to ask for. I think you have more time than 5 frames to react to teleport. ALOT more

Like I said before, if punishing that move is so easy for you then you shouldn't have any problems with a full punish on a blocked dash kid.

 

[Raiman]

Like I said before, if punishing that move is so easy for you then you shouldn't have any problems with a full punish on a blocked dash kid.

are you dense? a dash has 5 frames to react, a teleport has more, thats why the teleport is easier to punish. christ man really?

 

[THTB]

You know what? I'm done. You anti-elbow players need to go back to fucking SFIV. Like, seriously. I'm tired of having to explain to people who will NEVER do shit in competitive play (aside from BlueLightningTN) that the shit doesn't need to be touched and why it doesn't. Because you guys just aren't getting it, and never will get it. I PLAY OR HAVE PLAYED TOP PLAYERS WHO HAVE MADE ME REGRET USING ELBOW AT PARTICULAR POINTS ON A CONSISTENT BASIS...WHICH INCLUDES REO, PERFECT LEGEND, ETC. Has it ever occurred that maybe I have just a teensy bit more understanding of it all than you do???

 

[Raiman]

you go in the sub forums and go on rants why sub zero doesn't need a buff and you rant in here because your main is most likely going to get a nerf. Sure keep sub zero below s tier but if you make reptile below s tier oh man shits gonna hit the fan

 

[THTB]

I don't think Sub needs to be buffed or nerfed. He's fine. I don't think Raiden needs to be touched, I don't think Cage needs to be touched, hell, aside from the reset stuff, Cyrax is perfectly fine. I've even said you don't even have to touch Kung Lao's spin or low hat to fix him, and those two things are some of the most whined about shit on this site.

Again, a lot of you guys for nerfing shit don't even play close to high level. So a lot of you DON'T 100% understand what you are asking for with nerfs and shit. You guys just see "I hate it...OP!" I'm sick of it. Go the fuck back to SFIV.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

Temper temper THTB, they don't know what they're saying! hehe

I'm with you though, fuck elbow nerf. If Sheeva can punish it, you can punish it.

 

[Lyuben]

I don't think Sub needs to be buffed or nerfed. He's fine. I don't think Raiden needs to be touched, I don't think Cage needs to be touched, hell, aside from the reset stuff, Cyrax is perfectly fine. I've even said you don't even have to touch Kung Lao's spin or low hat to fix him, and those two things are some of the most whined about shit on this site.

Again, a lot of you guys for nerfing shit don't even play close to high level. So a lot of you DON'T 100% understand what you are asking for with nerfs and shit. You guys just see "I hate it...OP!" I'm sick of it. Go the fuck back to SFIV.

That's real nice THTB. But I don't appreciate your 'fuck you's and your 'go back to SF4' comments. Just dont see a mod saying stuff like that.

But again, bluelightnings changes do not address punishment. He is talking about its abuse as a spamming tool to build meter and to mess up wake up attacks.

You say 'anti-elbow players' and then say that all of them can't punish. Gee, like so many reptile players you seem to dodge the issue and bring up the issue which online scrubs like to bring up and try to drag us into their camp. Tsk tsk.

 

[shoshinsha]

I don't think Sub needs to be buffed or nerfed. He's fine. I don't think Raiden needs to be touched, I don't think Cage needs to be touched, hell, aside from the reset stuff, Cyrax is perfectly fine. I've even said you don't even have to touch Kung Lao's spin or low hat to fix him, and those two things are some of the most whined about shit on this site.

Again, a lot of you guys for nerfing shit don't even play close to high level. So a lot of you DON'T 100% understand what you are asking for with nerfs and shit. You guys just see "I hate it...OP!" I'm sick of it. Go the fuck back to SFIV.

I think you're right that those kinds of comments happen way too much. I also think it's only fair that if you say, "I've tried to provide you with justified arguments for why it shouldn't be changed and you just ignore them!" then you also have an ethical obligation to listen to other well-formed and justified arguments about why maybe it SHOULD be changed. If you're unwilling to listen to intelligent opinions that differ from yours, why should other people be expected to listen to your intelligent opinions if they differ from theirs?

There are some reasonable arguments for a change. One that I have been advocating is that elbow dash falls into an elite category of super-fast, difficult-to-punish attacks. Attacks in this speed category (roughly 6 to 10 frames) far exceed the human brain's ability to visually perceive them as they are occurring (which usually requires about 20 frames or so), and that still doesn't account for the time it takes after visual recognition to process, select, and input a response. This means that to punish such moves you essentially must be anticipating them in advance, blocking before they come out, and prepared to punish before you can see that your opponent has used the move. Attacks in this category have been the source of continuous complaints from a huge contingent of the player base, including some very good players. These attacks, such as Raiden's superman and teleport, Kung Lao's spin, Kano's up ball, etc., have also received nerfs or nerf-like attention from the developers, particularly in the form of longer recovery times on block to make punishing easier as compensation for their speed of activation. This can only mean that the devs, too, apparently see a potential problem.

 

[THTB]

Lyuben: You don't? Well you just have. Because you know what? I'm tired of keeping my mouth shut about how I feel because I have this status as a moderator. And I don't particularly appreciate everyone crying nerf at every fucking thing.

Dodge the issue? Have you EVEN READ MY PAST POSTS??? Idk how many times I've explained why shit is the way it is, from why Reptile has elbow as such a fast move, to why its recovery frames haven't been touched, to why certain compromises would make Reptile even better despite his nerfs! But yet, I'm dodging the issue. The fuck? No. Just...no.

I'm sick of all this "nerf this, nerf that!" shit. Good lord, most of you would have back-to-back heart attacks trying to play some of the greatest FGs out there. Just...ugh.