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Match-up Discussion Harley Quinn Matchup Discussion

Awkward Sloth

Lamest Harley, still better sloth than Jer
Had a bit of trouble with the Raven matchup last night. Not sure if it was online lag or what but after blocking a soul crush and immidiately using gun shot afterwords Raven was able to duck my gun shot and get a free soul crush combo going. I don't remember it being like that before. Couldn't even more forward in the slightest without being soul crushed.
 

TarkatanDentist

Kombatant
Had a bit of trouble with the Raven matchup last night. Not sure if it was online lag or what but after blocking a soul crush and immidiately using gun shot afterwords Raven was able to duck my gun shot and get a free soul crush combo going. I don't remember it being like that before. Couldn't even more forward in the slightest without being soul crushed.
Sadly, Line of Fire is one frame too slow to punish Soul Crush on block - unlucky or what? :p

Harley is one of the worse characters at punishing Soul Crush - obviously if you're super close b22 is an option, but what Raven worth their salt will use it at that range? A raw TS will also hit but, again, few good Ravens will be using it at such a proximity. If timed right, you do get a free SS after blocking it - if you can't trust yourself to time it right without getting blown up, go for a regular dash forwards instead.

When you find yourself at full-screen, make sure to set up Pop Pops to disrupt her rhythm and try and close in. She can theoretically absorb them with ease, but then all you have to do is throw in Line of Fire and she won't be so quick to absorb. Don't go for full-screen shenanigans if they're in Demon Stance though, or there's a very high chance you'll get comboed with Negative Mass MB.

Don't use regular Cupcake Bomb - Raven can always punish this with Soul Crush. Cupcake Bomb MB has situational uses, but can still usually be absorbed, so be wary.

Pretty much the only way Harley will have a chance is to stay in close-range as much as possible. And sadly, you just have to be patient in that regard - block Soul Crushes and dash forwards. Pretty soon she'll back herself into a corner and be forced to confront you, and now that Harley's d2 is much better, ji2 isn't so much of a threat as it used to be. Almost all of Raven's normals hit mid - she has one low combo starter (b12, which has tiny range), and obviously d3 as far as lows goes, and for overheads there's f3 (its range is better than Raven's other normals, but as far as f3s go it doesn't stand out) and f2233 (block the first two hits crouching, then revert to standing - she doesn't have any low follow-ups after f2). The main close-up tools to be wary of are throw (Raven's has surprisingly decent range AND it means you have to approach all over again), b23 (somewhat slow at 16 frames, but only -1 on block, nullifies throws and allows her a free transition into Demon Stance), d1 (fastest move, can easily be comboed into Singularity but has short range), f222 (0 on block, can follow-up with a huge combo, decent range) and 223 (beware of the delay between the second and third hits, along with the third hit being 6 on block) Oh, and if she's in Demon Stance and you managed to close in, be wary that she can follow up strings with Close Negative mass for extra chip damage that's 0 on block.

I won't sugarcoat it - it's definitely in Raven's favour. But no worse than 4-6.
 

serge

Mortal
Yeah I met a Raven player yesterday who tore me a new one :(
At some point I was just ducking and doing nothing, trying to think of a way to get in but I got blown up every time in the end. I should be more patient !
 
raven's a bitch, you can't zone her at anywhere but full screen and she's got a teleport (sometimes). you just can't press buttons and hope for the punish i guess
 

booivi

Good Game :)
Against Raven I like using uppercutxxdb1... as a punish for her air teleport. And for ground teleport d1xxTS1... Also, try pressuring Raven players with a charged pop pop full screen only. If you get the unblockable pop pop to come out go ahead and rush in or wait for the teleport punish but make sure Raven isn't going to parry the pop pop, if you know she is going to attempt to parry it then go ahead and SS, TS1 or TS3 her. That's all I know off the top of my head, but I suppose you can look at the frame data and see what Harley can do against some of her strings/special moves.

EDIT: If you see Raven throw her projectile while you are charging pop pop, then go ahead and waste 1 meter for a good trade. You should even be able to block her projectile after shooting yours, if timed correctly. If you don't want to waste a meter then go ahead and let go of the pop pop and spam your guns for a little bit or rush her if she is going to parry the pop pop.
 

testyourpatience

Ya'll stingy
Maybe until they fix Harleys b22 on floating characters. I can see dash, b22 working.
yeah that's annoying. you have to be really close to ba, supes, raven for b22 to hit. f3 and tantrum stance work but those aren't optimal and his wakeup has invincibility, big hitbox, and lowers his hitbox. AND he could just backdash instead of the wakeup.
 

booivi

Good Game :)
Yeah. Idk i guess you can try MB pop pop from a good distance and then SS TS1. Not sure, cant test right now.
 

Akromaniac27

Ready to lose your head?
I was doing like a 3 hour set in Single Fight mode against Hawkgirl set on very hard(I know its the AI and whatnot), but from the many Hawkgirl players I faced, they play very similarly and this one had the benefit that it was an AI to react instantly and would optimize many of her combos. Anyways, at first I thought the match was 4-6 Hawkgirl's favor, then 5-5, and now I strongly believe its 6-4 Harley's favor. My Harley can definitely hold her own(she was a joke before haha, no oki set ups, mix ups, or anything), so it took me by surprise how well she in general can deal with HG.

Imo, Hawkgirl is for sure a top 10 contender(as is Harley), I personally think maybe even top 5 and only a handful or the cast can deal with her accordingly, Harley being one of them. The way the MU was going, it was pretty clear Harley could nullify all of her options and was able to play a much better keep away game then she could. I read your insight after the set, and most of it is very spot on. I wanted to add in general terms that Harley is one of the characters in the game that doesn't require meter for pretty much anything other than zoning benefits and combo enders. This obviously includes meter for super, wager and MB b3/f3. HG is going to try to lame you out and stay in her hideaway spot where MB cupcakes won't reach her, but what goes up must come down. If she tries chucking maces at you, her diagonal ones you can IAoopsy daisy over them and gain the same amount of meter she is gaining from throwing maces. If on point, you can even throw out Line of Fire in between and be able to jump up before getting hit to do the oopsy daisy gaining you twice as much meter. IAOD can also be done if you're up against the edge of the stage and she's trying to bully you. You will still recover faster after your IAOD than she will from her mace tosses. As you said, position yourself at the right distance for MB cupcakes. Whether they use up their flight time, or drop before the end of it, MBcupcakes on reaction will catch them because they would now have to fly all the way back up to their hiding spot which they will not reach in time if they don't respect it. These on block also pretty much grant you an additional cupcake that's safe all while doing very nice chip.

From a distance, HG shouldn't be able to chip you unless she's mace charging and MB her specials but thats what you want to get her to do. You want to have meter on your side while draining her so she's forced to resort to chucking maces again to gain some meter back and you can rinse and repeat until she gains some courage and takes the fight to you. It's a bit of a process(half the time it came down to me winning by time outs) but its very effective and all the chip you're doing even when MB specials, give you meter right back and giving you the life lead. Once she starts taking the fight to you, it pretty much becomes in Harley's favor because she has a much stronger mix up and block string game. 112 comes in very handy here and though HG can mace charge or wing evade after to avoid CERTAIN follow ups, if you condition her to respect your follow ups, such as d1~TS or another 112, you will then be able to use your other strings just as you would against the other characters that don't have a "Get out of jail free" card. Though HG has massive reach with her d1, d2, d3 and can throw out her WE2, WE3, and mace charge, she has to be very close and is also unsafe after to attempt a follow up. d1 on block lets you check her back with d1 or a NJ2 or IAOD. d2 gives you a jump in and d3 as well you can follow up the same ways unless its at max distance, which even then, you can get a jump in or IAOD. We2 is the only special that leaves HG at an advantage, so just be wary of that, plus its an overhead, but as the OP said, you have to be very close for it to hit. We3 and MC, though fast and advancing, will give Harley enough time to jump back to do an IAOD after. MC will push HG back some, enough for you to back dash as well and control the space, or get a jump in. And We3 gives Harley a guaranteed d1. HG has no overhead starters other than We2, divekick(from the air though)and f3, so you should be crouching if she's up close. Her d3 looks identical to her d1 but is a low and will cause a knockdown. As the OP said, just be wary of her 22 string, in which the second hit is an overhead. Learn to differentiate between her 2 and b2, as the look very similar(as do many of her moves unfortunately); b22b3, is a mid, low, low string; 22, is a mid, overhead; b23, is a mid, overhead string.

Aside from all that, it really came down to the combos that turned it around for me many times. Because of HG's safe wake up game, I wouldn't recommend any set ups after combos for mix ups and all those shenanigans; aside from enders that allow for MB cupcakes to check them on wake up. You just want the life lead and then lame Hawkgirl out to return the favor. What worked for me big time was doing her optimum combos that ended in her Play Doctor which I would MB after. Leaves her standing so there's no wake up game, and while you move away or attempt to pressure her, she's still eating an additional 8% that's unblockable. This really worked wonders at just about any point because if they had little meter or a lot, if you decide to play keep away, HG will MB her specials to try to get in or to do some damage all while wasting meter or attempting to gain some. Harley does have the tools to evade them all while HG is eating that extra damage and then you get to start chipping them again until you get to land another combo. And lastly if your meter management is done right, during the second life bar, HG should now contemplate whether wagering or not. Almost every single time in all those matches, HG didn't wager because I had the meter advantage or was at least even which still didn't give her a chance to gain anything. Harley gains so much meter in this MU, more than average, use it well. You shouldn't be sitting on 4 bars but at the same time you shouldn't be empty.

Thanks to the recent buff, trait does come in handy very much here. Just know your safe set ups where no matter the trait selection, no harm will fall on to you, and use it there.

Sorry for the length and I hope this helps your Hawkgirl MU
 

booivi

Good Game :)
Ive lately been having trouble with the scorpion match up. However, it's only this one player who is in my friend list and has a godlike scorpion, so maybe he's just outplaying me. Anyways i just wanted to know if there is a way to beat scorpions sword cross-up? And how to punish his special moves.
 

testyourpatience

Ya'll stingy
Ive lately been having trouble with the scorpion match up. However, it's only this one player who is in my friend list and has a godlike scorpion, so maybe he's just outplaying me. Anyways i just wanted to know if there is a way to beat scorpions sword cross-up? And how to punish his special moves.
her best punish against teleport (blocked or whiffed) is probably 12 TS 1 into your combo.
flip kick is only -10 and pushes back so idk.
if hes doing that crossup sword after he knocks you down, try ss wakeup. not really sure tho because no one picks him anymore.
 

booivi

Good Game :)
her best punish against teleport (blocked or whiffed) is probably 12 TS 1 into your combo.
flip kick is only -10 and pushes back so idk.
if hes doing that crossup sword after he knocks you down, try ss wakeup. not really sure tho because no one picks him anymore.
To punish teleport on block you wait until scorpion is on his feet? Scorpions mb teleport is unpunishable right? Is hellfire avoidable with a well timed SS? I wish I had all the dlc just to test things out myself, but I don't so can someone help me with my questions?
 
is there something different about waking up to batman's knockdowns? even in training mode i find it hard to TS wakeup.

generally this also raises the question for me - are there visible differences in untechable knockdowns?
 

k1nG_Qu1nN

The King
I know I said GL was easy and whatnot but I've been having trouble against good GL players. I think it's because I don't know the match up. Lanterns Mights range seems to have increased after the 3 or so patches(I was playing offline until 3 days ago). So when I try to Ji2 into B22 combo he just Lanterns Might me for a full BnB cross up. Then I'm reduced to trying to guess his next 50/50 either F3 or the low combo starter he has AFTER getting crossed up. Ugh...... I have less trouble with Black Adam then Green Lantern.
 
okay, against green lantern, instead of ending your combo with PD, end it with a gun shot. why you may ask? well, harley completely out-zones GL so putting you at a farther distance to zone makes the job easier

so knock him down and back dash away and start zoning, this match-up is really boring but literally, all you don is zone him out

at the beginning of the match, let him make the first move, his overhead is fairly slow and easy to react to, so just down block and watch his move, and then punish him (he's quite punishable on block), get the distance as far away from him as possible and then fire gun shots when he's on the ground and if he jumps, use a cupcake bomb. both options stuff his charging move
 

k1nG_Qu1nN

The King
okay, against green lantern, instead of ending your combo with PD, end it with a gun shot. why you may ask? well, harley completely out-zones GL so putting you at a farther distance to zone makes the job easier

so knock him down and back dash away and start zoning, this match-up is really boring but literally, all you don is zone him out

at the beginning of the match, let him make the first move, his overhead is fairly slow and easy to react to, so just down block and watch his move, and then punish him (he's quite punishable on block), get the distance as far away from him as possible and then fire gun shots when he's on the ground and if he jumps, use a cupcake bomb. both options stuff his charging move
K I just have trouble with his Lanterns Might on wake up/beginning of the round. Also punishing with B22 is hard because he's a floating character.......I always try to zone the shit outta Lanterns.