My Personal Joker MU Chart.

[Vengeance135]

Not talking about the matchup overall, just purely the zoning element.
Full screen, if you play it completely right, you can always shut down what he's doing.
Footsies are waaaayyy in his favor. Our d2 outranges his f2 SLIGHTLY, but he can dance around on that threshold and whiff punish us huge against pretty much any of our options. You are completely correct.
His j1, as you said, is also a huge problem for our air game, but I find his d2 to get stuffed by early j3's in my experience if you time it right.
For the corner game, I think he is heavily at advantage on stages with good interactables in the corner (gets fucking guaranteed 90%+ in some cases...) and we go pretty even on others.
I think the matchup is in his favor, but I don't think it's tooooo terrible. Probably the matchup I've had the most experience with, and at all levels of play.

I would like to say that this is in my top 5 of most mu experience for me, if not top 3. Who have you played or is there anything you could send and/or show me as to why this MU isn't 7-3 and I'm lost on where Joker goes even with superman. In my experience vs superman, hitting my opponent with any setup, even 1f setups, they've learned to block, if not avoided the corner completely. Any win I've gotten over a superman in the past 6 months was by stray hit confirms, hard reads and whiff punishes because they have finally started to understand Jokers setups and limitations.

The fact that Joker can't whiff anything or has to pick and choose to swing in fear of heavy punishment alone nets a solid 6-4 against his favor because superman can get damage and setups off of anything Joker messes up on and with Joker you need to take risks. Adding Supermans mobility, interactable control, corner game, trait, zoning options and just overall space control vs Joker definitely nets a 7-3. You can't possibly think that its 6-4 when Joker legitimately has to play it near perfect to get a win against a superman that knows the mu.

I know I said I would be optimal in my chart but I also said realistic and realistically nobody can play 100% perfect in any match. They would be play better Justin Wong and Daigo in his prime a million times over lol

Don't get me wrong Stevo I agree with the majority of what you said EXCEPT for its not that bad and going even in the corner if thats what you meant. Jokers corner game can be exploited if you familiarize yourself with his setups. Once you do, the mu because way easier.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

What about jump laser?

It's elaborate, but managable. Assuming you both start at neutral across the screen, there are the following scenarios:
1. You pull out the gun and just shoot without holding.
a. He tries to jump and eats the bullet.
b. *He jumps fast enough to clear the bullet, but you will recover in time to block/jump lasers at that height. Punish him on the way down with bullet if he doesn't MB on block, forcing him to spend bar on chip or eat 8%.
c. He goes for lower lasers, which eat bullet.
2. You hold the gun out and have him make a move.
a. You read when he is going to try to jump and catch him with the bullet.
b. *He jumps slightly sooner than you expect and you release the bullet a bit late, but are still able to block/jump. Punish non-MB lasers on block.
c. He jumps much sooner than you expect, and you keep holding the gun, watch his air lasers start, and then backdash cancel RIGHT before they touch you, avoiding them during the the invulnerability frames.

*Timing on this is very tight, but I *think* there may be a height where he JUST BARELY gets over the gunshot hitbox AND the lasers are able to punish gunshot during recovery because it is the absolute soonest he can activate them while still avoiding the shot. I was never able to tell if it was coincidental based on my own bad timing making me more punishable or the Superman player actually hitting that sweetspot.

Fromundaman is also completely correct about grounded lasers. They can be dealt with via gunshot pretty easily if you just slightly delay the shot, and that plays in really well with #2 above when they are mixing them in with jump lasers.

Again, not easy, but doable, tested, and sound.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I would like to say that this is in my top 5 of most mu experience for me, if not top 3. Who have you played or is there anything you could send and/or show me as to why this MU isn't 7-3 and I'm lost on where Joker goes even with superman. In my experience vs superman, hitting my opponent with any setup, even 1f setups, they've learned to block, if not avoided the corner completely. Any win I've gotten over a superman in the past 6 months was by stray hit confirms, hard reads and whiff punishes because they have finally started to understand Jokers setups and limitations.

The fact that Joker can't whiff anything or has to pick and choose to swing in fear of heavy punishment alone nets a solid 6-4 against his favor because superman can get damage and setups off of anything Joker messes up on and with Joker you need to take risks. Adding Supermans mobility, interactable control, corner game, trait, zoning options and just overall space control vs Joker definitely nets a 7-3. You can't possibly think that its 6-4 when Joker legitimately has to play it near perfect to get a win against a superman that knows the mu.

I know I said I would be optimal in my chart but I also said realistic and realistically nobody can play 100% perfect in any match. They would be play better Justin Wong and Daigo in his prime a million times over lol

Don't get me wrong Stevo I agree with the majority of what you said EXCEPT for its not that bad and going even in the corner if thats what you meant. Jokers corner game can be exploited if you familiarize yourself with his setups. Once you do, the mu because way easier.

My Superman experience comes from KDZ, Frantastic before he broke my heart and moved away, and one of my buddies from my home town. All are very good, know my tendencies very well, and know Joker stuff.
For the corner stuff, I am constantly mixing up what I'm throwing at them to keep them from getting used to any setups in particular. I tend to gravitate towards crowbar setups or flower advantage spaceout enders. When you establish respect for the OTG from crowbar to stop wakeups, go into overhead/low mixup on teeth for big resets. If you do flower stuff, it's more dependent on making a read based on the tendencies of who you're fighting.
You guys should switch to the stuff me an Fro do midscreen now (ending in flower onto teeth to jail them into a 50/50 between ij2 and b1) because I think that's a very good option in this fight. You can get into stuff like that off most hitconfirms and you need to keep this fight out of the neutral because that (like most matchups) is where Joker struggles.
I don't think he controls interactables that well in the neutral. If you meant guaranteed stuff during combos, then yeah, but that's just BS injustice crap. We can combo pretty well into many interactables as well.
Zoning I covered. I think we just disagree on that?
His mobility is great. I'd factor that into the neutral game/space control, which he's better in.
I approach the neutral by focusing on winning the zoning war so that he comes to me, and being very defensive with teeth and flower usage. Once I open him up, I do my best to never let go.
Generally, I'm also playing like a retard and throwing a lot of parries around because I like to have fun. Don't use parry in the neutral in this fight. It's not worth it. Sparingly after blocked crowbars only or on reaction to f3's.

 

[Vengeance135]

My Superman experience comes from KDZ, Frantastic before he broke my heart and moved away, and one of my buddies from my home town. All are very good, know my tendencies very well, and know Joker stuff.
For the corner stuff, I am constantly mixing up what I'm throwing at them to keep them from getting used to any setups in particular. I tend to gravitate towards crowbar setups or flower advantage spaceout enders. When you establish respect for the OTG from crowbar to stop wakeups, go into overhead/low mixup on teeth for big resets. If you do flower stuff, it's more dependent on making a read based on the tendencies of who you're fighting.
You guys should switch to the stuff me an Fro do midscreen now (ending in flower onto teeth to jail them into a 50/50 between ij2 and b1) because I think that's a very good option in this fight. You can get into stuff like that off most hitconfirms and you need to keep this fight out of the neutral because that (like most matchups) is where Joker struggles.
I don't think he controls interactables that well in the neutral. If you meant guaranteed stuff during combos, then yeah, but that's just BS injustice crap. We can combo pretty well into many interactables as well.
Zoning I covered. I think we just disagree on that?
His mobility is great. I'd factor that into the neutral game/space control, which he's better in.
I approach the neutral by focusing on winning the zoning war so that he comes to me, and being very defensive with teeth and flower usage. Once I open him up, I do my best to never let go.
Generally, I'm also playing like a retard and throwing a lot of parries around because I like to have fun. Don't use parry in the neutral in this fight. It's not worth it. Sparingly after blocked crowbars only or on reaction to f3's.

Now besides those 2, who else has given you superman experience? Now I am one of those players that believe in playing multiple players who use the same character and how they use the character in mu to give me the results to determine what I think of the mu. To me, at least 10 different, highly skilled players.
Now I truly believe that KDZ is one of the best, if not the best, superman player. But he is only one man and if you play the same person over and over again, you can make a 7-3 mu look even because you know your opponents habits. That being said, I have watched him play a lot because the tech he used wound up being used by the community and one thing I've noticed was that he doesn't pushblock often and I have never seen you guys actually play in the past 6 months or so and I don't want to assume but I'm pretty sure since I don't see him do it often, i'm going to say he doesn't feel threatened enough to pushblock Joker, in which any case people should really do more often. Flower teeth setups should almost always be pushblocked because that is the safest way to get Joker off you. Superman honestly doesn't need a full stick of butter to beat Joker. Now I am just asking bro and I'm not trying to put you on the spot but once KDZ figured out the Joker, how many sets or games have you won vs him since? Because if a MU is 6-4 in this game, winning or losing close sets would be more consistent then a mu way out of your favor.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I listed 3 people there, and can add a few others that have been to the break and other regional tournaments that I've played, I just don't know their names. The 3 I listed all play fairly differently, so I presented it as a reasonable sample size. With the matchup fully fleshed out, KDZ and I generally fall anywhere between the 4-6 to 2-8 lines to be honest depending on how we're playing and such, but we are nowhere near equivalent in skill level. He's the previous evo champ and I'm some guy that hosts casuals. Don't think that's a fair way for me to rate the matchup, so I go based off analysis.,
I'm not as thrown by push blocks as you are to be honest. Maybe I'm just more comfortable in the neutral in this fight, but if I make him waste the meter after eating 40% already and me building about half of one, I'm fine with it. If he wants to space me, I'll just play the zoning game. If people are push blocking you that consistently, you should have time to do a mb F3 after the flower recovers but just before the teeth... I could be wrong, but I think I tested that. Will get back to you on that.
I'd agree that it can maybe get close to 3-7 territory on a couple stages, but overall, I think it's a fairly decent matchup.
Anywho, pretty sure we're at the agree-to-disagree point.

 

[Qwark28]

Also Qwark, there's 192 pages of that Joker chat so I will not be able to pull a post out, but there are multiple instances in that chat where someone asks how to play the NW MU and you posted that same vid saying "This is how you do it". One of those posts was even what sparked the ongoing debate that has been going on about this MU.
That said I will drop this now, because you're right, I don't have the time or patience to bring proof to the table.

Really dude? When did I use it as gospel other than give a general idea of how to play the matchup, I even pointed out that Chongo is not yet playing the matchup properly and must still improve.

Don't quote what I haven't said, I've always attributed some priviledges I had due to different NWs doing different shit. Now I'm done as well.

 

[Vengeance135]

I listed 3 people there, and can add a few others that have been to the break and other regional tournaments that I've played, I just don't know their names. The 3 I listed all play fairly differently, so I presented it as a reasonable sample size. With the matchup fully fleshed out, KDZ and I generally fall anywhere between the 4-6 to 2-8 lines to be honest depending on how we're playing and such, but we are nowhere near equivalent in skill level. He's the previous evo champ and I'm some guy that hosts casuals. Don't think that's a fair way for me to rate the matchup, so I go based off analysis.,
I'm not as thrown by push blocks as you are to be honest. Maybe I'm just more comfortable in the neutral in this fight, but if I make him waste the meter after eating 40% already and me building about half of one, I'm fine with it. If he wants to space me, I'll just play the zoning game. If people are push blocking you that consistently, you should have time to do a mb F3 after the flower recovers but just before the teeth... I could be wrong, but I think I tested that. Will get back to you on that.
I'd agree that it can maybe get close to 3-7 territory on a couple stages, but overall, I think it's a fairly decent matchup.
Anywho, pretty sure we're at the agree-to-disagree point.

I agree and disagree with you which is hard lol. I agree with analysis also but not in a cut and dry standard. Playing a mu isn't really taking turns back and forth with no to little thought. Nobody plays 100% perfectly and by the way it sounds is like everybody would be playing perfectly. My question should expand a bit. How well have you faired against any high level superman since Jokers been figured out?

My trouble in neutral is the same as any other Joker. Every player that I've ever played will pushblock me because they are scared to Have me that close to them. They will take the meter loss over a setup to their death if they can't block Joker or want to keep him out because by the time Joker gets in they will have that meter back. Jokers meter bar is pretty useless against superman in neutral. The only time meter matters is when Jokers close to him. Superman builds meter well enough to always have it vs the Joker and since superman does such an amazing job keeping Joker out, meter isn't a problem.

Analysis of MU's are both good and bad. It helps optimize any situation you get into. However with that being said you can't just go with an if this then that kind of out look because thats not how it works. If you or I have played every mu perfectly, Joker would beat damn near every character in the game and we would never lose.

Basically what I'm saying is Joker needs to play perfect in order to have a decent shot at winning vs a superman that knows the mu. One mess up will cost Joker the game and thats pretty much the mu. Much like HG, Flash, AM and etc. A 6-4 implies that Joker can have a shot because the disadvantage isn't bad. A 7-3 basically tells you to be almost perfect in everything you do in order to win. 8-2 and up for get it lol but as you said, agree to disagree. Great conversation Stevo I appreciate the no salt flying.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I don't contain salt.
I kinda disagree with your analysis approach though.
Assuming people don't always play perfect cuts both ways and cancels out, so I would rather assume all things being executed perfectly on both sides during MU analysis.
Obviously someone is going to make a mistake at some point, and the neutral being difficult for Joker due to lackluster tools is why he is in the bottom of the tier list.
Differences in our approach I guess.

 

[Vengeance135]

I don't contain salt.
I kinda disagree with your analysis approach though.
Assuming people don't always play perfect cuts both ways and cancels out, so I would rather assume all things being executed perfectly on both sides during MU analysis.
Obviously someone is going to make a mistake at some point, and the neutral being difficult for Joker due to lackluster tools is why he is in the bottom of the tier list.
Differences in our approach I guess.

I know you didn't contain salt and thats why I thanked you for it. Usually conversations like this true to arguments on this site. Thanks for the good debate and yeah our approaches are most likely different. Honestly I don't really do bad in the Superman MU if I'm focused and ready. You already know as a fellow Joker olayer he tends to get underestimated. Horrible choice if you don't know the Joker mu.

I'm satisfied with the agree to disagree. You must get results in your approaches and I get results in mine. Hopefully you pick up tekken in the future. That game is all about analysis lol

 

[EMPR_MURK]

NW/joker is 5-5 or 6-4 NW. I have yet to play a joker who has changed my opinion fundamentally.

@AK L0rdoftheFLY what are your thoughts on the NW/joker mu because @Qwark28 thinks joker wins it

Also
@EMPEROR PRYCE
@gpmoney
@FOREVER EL1TE

Feel free to input on this as well. I tried explaining to him

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

NW/joker is 5-5 or 6-4 NW. I have yet to play a joker who has changed my opinion fundamentally.

@AK L0rdoftheFLY what are your thoughts on the NW/joker mu because @Qwark28 thinks joker wins it

Also
@EMPEROR PRYCE
@gpmoney
@FOREVER EL1TE

Feel free to input on this as well. I tried explaining to him

I wish I could play quark but our connection blows. Last time we played I mained Grundy

Honestly, From full screen NW can zone him fairly well with spark and wingding. If Joker can close the distance, NW can switch to staff and out do him up close. Obviously if joker gets the corner its his game.

NW:Joker
6-4 mid screen
6-4 up close
4-6 in the corner

Most of the game is played mid screen or up close so IMO its 6-4 NW favor.

 

[Emperor Eevee]

The Harley vs Joker is 5-5. Its 6-4 in Harley's favor if they don't know the MU.

 

[Vengeance135]

The Harley vs Joker is 5-5. Its 6-4 in Harley's favor if they don't know the MU.

Thanks, could you tell me why? Im not sure about the mu which is why I asked for the input lol

 

[Vengeance135]

I wish I could play quark but our connection blows. Last time we played I mained Grundy

Honestly, From full screen NW can zone him fairly well with spark and wingding. If Joker can close the distance, NW can switch to staff and out do him up close. Obviously if joker gets the corner its his game.

NW:Joker
6-4 mid screen
6-4 up close
4-6 in the corner

Most of the game is played mid screen or up close so IMO its 6-4 NW favor.

Well said, I agree with you 6-4 NW.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

The Harley vs Joker is 5-5. Its 6-4 in Harley's favor if they don't know the MU.

Howww?

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Qwark how is jokers pressure better in the mu? I know 212 doesn't whiff but is that much of a difference?

 

[Emperor Eevee]

Thanks, could you tell me why? Im not sure about the mu which is why I asked for the input lol

Howww?

~Both characters can bully each other on knockdown.
~Joker's corner game is a tad bit better than Harley's.
~Joker's gun does more damage than Harley's, so I have to carefully zone/make my way in if needed.

Here is @Fromundaman's input on the MU:

"While I'm not entirely sure why I'm in this chat (Thanks though!), this is actually something I know about and can contribute on (@@AL Eevee chime in since you play this MU against me a lot, and my info is coming exclusively from Joker's PoV).

D2 does outfootsie Harley BUT it is unsafe if not canceled into either overhead crowbar or flower, and both of those have issues. If Joker cancels into flower, it will whiff at max range D2, which allows you to punish. However, it will blow up a MB B3 and leaves Joker +5 on block.
If Joker cancels into a overhead crowbar, it becomes -4 on block, not to mention you can MB B3 through the D2 and hit him before the overhead crowbar hits (This works for all D2 cancels EXCEPT flower).
Despite being negative, a raw D2 can't be punished from max range unless you MB B3 through it.


At full screen, Joker can actually outzone Harley thanks to gunshot being faster BUT within air gunshot range Joker has trouble and has to get in. When in mid range/Instant air gunshot range, Joker has the most problems getting in IMO. When Harley has meter, Joker also struggles to move when in the corner and she's at cupcake range.

Harley can also really mess with Joker on knockdown. F23 actually ducks my acid flower while hitting me out of overhead crowbar, knocking out both of my wakeups. What this means is that on knockdown you can go for a meaty low B22 (Just like the command grab, you can't block it if timed right since the game forces you to stand for 1 frame after being knocked down unless you wake up), a meaty overhead F2 or do that F2 just a little early and go F23 to beat Joker's wakeups. I've gotten pretty good at reacting to this, but if someone does start reacting to it then you still have neutral jumps to blow up my wakeup, the meaty PD stuff, the HKD>Silly Slide>"I still can't tell which side it hits on yet" neutral jump setups, etc.

Now admittedly, Joker's got a lot of tools post-knockdown as well, but generally speaking tech rolling will get you out of most of it.


One thing though: Any time Joker gets close, especially if he gets a 212 blockstring going on you, pushblock him. Your shitty backdash allows me to do a lot of stupid frametraps that I can't always get away with. Once Joker gets in on you, despite what some spokesmen for my character may say, he has some retarded pressure, frame traps and mixups. Pushblock him out and continue a mixture of smart zoning and the occasional pressure (Think hit and run; zone me at that mid range with air gunshot, normal gunshots and if I'm far enough back, cupcakes, to try and frustrate me into doing something, then full combo punish that).


I also know there is a situation where after Joker does a crossup j2 Harley's B22 can hit him out before the follow up comes out, but I don't know exactly what that situation is. I know Eevee does though since he hits me with this a lot.


Oh, be careful jumping in on Joker btw. If Joker stays grounded, D2 beats all of Harley's aerials (Although a gun cancel can fake me out, make D2 whiff and punish it). That said, if you do it early enough, your J1 will beat all of my aerials."

Anymore questions, feel free to ask.

 

[BillStickers]

The Harley vs Joker is 5-5. Its 6-4 in Harley's favor if they don't know the MU.

Bullshit. 4-6 Joker and 0-10 Joker in the corner. The Harley upplaying dies TODAY.

 

[Emperor Eevee]

Bullshit. 4-6 Joker and 0-10 Joker in the corner. The Harley upplaying dies TODAY.

Wait, you think Joker beats Harley?

EDIT: Please tell me you're on XBL. I am more than willing to go back to Fromundaman's house, play you, and record the matches. Hell, I'll play @Amplified$hotz as well ( no hate towards you, you just use Joker and you're on my friends list <3 ).

 

[BillStickers]

Wait, you think Joker beats Harley?

EDIT: Please tell me you're on XBL. I am more than willing to go back to Fromundaman's house, play you, and record the matches. Hell, I'll play @Amplified$hotz as well ( no hate towards you, you just use Joker and you're on my friends list <3 ).

I absolutely think Joker beats Harley if 4-6 is actually a slight disadvantage and not "completely unwinnable" as most people on TYM would lead you to believe. Harley has to work to get in and then deal with Joker's excellent footsie tools (d2, b1, crowbar, teeth, etc.). I mean, in your own quote from @Fromundaman , he makes it sound like being A WHOLE MINUS FOUR on a blocked d2~crowbar that pushes you half-screen is some kind of death sentence. HELLO?! What can Harley do when she's +4? How about literally nothing! Not to mention that any stage with a BGB is a basically free double damage for Joker that Harley gets NOTHING out of. Your only hope in the corner vs. Joker is to have a bar of meter to pushblock. If you're meterless, Joker has a guaranteed win.

 

[Emperor Eevee]

I absolutely think Joker beats Harley if 4-6 is actually a slight disadvantage and not "completely unwinnable" as most people on TYM would lead you to believe. Harley has to work to get in and then deal with Joker's excellent footsie tools (d2, b1, crowbar, teeth, etc.). I mean, in your own quote from @Fromundaman , he makes it sound like being A WHOLE MINUS FOUR on a blocked d2~crowbar that pushes you half-screen is some kind of death sentence. HELLO?! What can Harley do when she's +4? How about literally nothing! Not to mention that any stage with a BGB is a basically free double damage for Joker that Harley gets NOTHING out of. Your only hope in the corner vs. Joker is to have a bar of meter to pushblock. If you're meterless, Joker has a guaranteed win.

Are you XBL?

 

[BillStickers]

Are you XBL?

So we can play a Harley mirror?

 

[Emperor Eevee]

So we can play a Harley mirror?

Oh you use Harley? Nevermind then. Have you not seen my matches with Fromundaman before?

EDIT: Who on TYM has said that Harley vs Joker is un-winnable for Harley??????

 

[Emperor Eevee]

WATCH @BillStickers . Skip to 1:38:00 mark.

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

I wish I could play quark but our connection blows. Last time we played I mained Grundy

Honestly, From full screen NW can zone him fairly well with spark and wingding. If Joker can close the distance, NW can switch to staff and out do him up close. Obviously if joker gets the corner its his game.

NW:Joker
6-4 mid screen
6-4 up close
4-6 in the corner

Most of the game is played mid screen or up close so IMO its 6-4 NW favor.

Just like he said.