My Personal Joker MU Chart.

[Fromundaman]

While I disagree with some of this, I am surprised to agree with a decent portion.

Also to the nay-sayers: Hawkgirl absolutely IS that bad. If she spaces herself right, you're never even going to get the opportunity to land a hit.
Mace charge and WE are good moves, but in this MU they are absolutely not the problem; why would she ever approach/leave the sky in the first place?

 

[Aphistemi]

I agree somewhat to the 5-5 matchup against lex luthor, joker can play crazy mind games with his gun and outzone lex (which isn't really that hard, but coming from a character like joker it will be his most useful move), while up close, lex destroys joker, however joker is not that useless up close, Lex stands like the empire state building, I think he's the tallest character in the game, making him very vulnerable to crossups, and joker's legs are swinging like a hentai tentacle and lex is the little school girl, it's so easy, but only bold jokers would get close to armor, mines, and all that other shit lex has, also lex can make good reads and punish the crossup, can go either way honestly

 

[DreadKnight1]

i agree with the lex number, we need a proper set though @Vengeance135

 

[Amplified$hotz]

She has better mobility, better vortex, better neutral options, better notmals, strong wakeup options, great setups, and can obliterate Joker on wakeup. Joker can bully her on wakeup if he makes the right read. When Joker gets knockdown, hes pretty much fucked unless he guesses right. She can keep Joker out to an extent but her zoning tools vs Joker are pretty much made to trade and/or just build her meter to support her vortex. I'm not saying this MU is terrible for Joker, but 6-4 in her favor is pretty solid imo

just a funny read

On the subject of Killer Frost, I think this quote from an anonymous member (not named myleswright, mind you) can sum her up as a bill:

"This char is good. I get it. But she has problems that no frost player can overcome because...well a) their bad and b) She isn't this broke ass bitch.

She. Cant. Get. In.

Her only way in is slide. Not like "lol all she needs to do is slide" like "I'm serious. ALL SHE CAN DO IS SLIDE"

Her forward dash is insanely slow. Her air dash is insanely slow. Her jump attacks are meh. Her walk speed sucks. Her zoning is average. Her footsies are probably bottom 3 in the game. They are fucking nonexistant.

So yes....All that bitch can do is slide and it's on her opponent to figure out how to handle it. Now, she has 1 thing going for her of course and that's risk reward. It's so heavily on her favor that MUs become even or her advantage because of it. But her design is inherently shitty.

She literally doesn't play the fucking game. She either hits you with a slide, or she doesnt. Outside of that she has to open herself up to a parry that if she's wrong she gets fucking bodied. SHE CAN‘T HANDLE JUMP BACK. Characters like Sinestro and Adam probably body her still but everyone is too blind to see it.

Her character design is literally....I'm going to do a bunch of risky shit, and hope that when I'm right I take your entire bar. And she can do that. It's the basis of her game. But as a character she has some fucking nasty problems that no one has overcome, and no one will."

She gets bodied by a bgb. Waking up is also a risk for her. Her zoning and mobility aren't that great. I don't know if it's a better offline or not. Honestly Catwoman seems a bit harder.

 

[Vengeance135]

just a funny read

On the subject of Killer Frost, I think this quote from an anonymous member (not named myleswright, mind you) can sum her up as a bill:

"This char is good. I get it. But she has problems that no frost player can overcome because...well a) their bad and b) She isn't this broke ass bitch.

She. Cant. Get. In.

Her only way in is slide. Not like "lol all she needs to do is slide" like "I'm serious. ALL SHE CAN DO IS SLIDE"

Her forward dash is insanely slow. Her air dash is insanely slow. Her jump attacks are meh. Her walk speed sucks. Her zoning is average. Her footsies are probably bottom 3 in the game. They are fucking nonexistant.

So yes....All that bitch can do is slide and it's on her opponent to figure out how to handle it. Now, she has 1 thing going for her of course and that's risk reward. It's so heavily on her favor that MUs become even or her advantage because of it. But her design is inherently shitty.

She literally doesn't play the fucking game. She either hits you with a slide, or she doesnt. Outside of that she has to open herself up to a parry that if she's wrong she gets fucking bodied. SHE CAN‘T HANDLE JUMP BACK. Characters like Sinestro and Adam probably body her still but everyone is too blind to see it.

Her character design is literally....I'm going to do a bunch of risky shit, and hope that when I'm right I take your entire bar. And she can do that. It's the basis of her game. But as a character she has some fucking nasty problems that no one has overcome, and no one will."

She gets bodied by a bgb. Waking up is also a risk for her. Her zoning and mobility aren't that great. I don't know if it's a better offline or not. Honestly Catwoman seems a bit harder.

This shit had me dying LMAO

 

[Vengeance135]

i agree with the lex number, we need a proper set though @Vengeance135

I'll try to get on but tbh I really am starting to hate this game lol you're right though. We do need a proper set

 

[Vengeance135]

I agree somewhat to the 5-5 matchup against lex luthor, joker can play crazy mind games with his gun and outzone lex (which isn't really that hard, but coming from a character like joker it will be his most useful move), while up close, lex destroys joker, however joker is not that useless up close, Lex stands like the empire state building, I think he's the tallest character in the game, making him very vulnerable to crossups, and joker's legs are swinging like a hentai tentacle and lex is the little school girl, it's so easy, but only bold jokers would get close to armor, mines, and all that other shit lex has, also lex can make good reads and punish the crossup, can go either way honestly

Yo Lex's trait comes back way to damn fast I swear lol. That alone makes me hate the MU. Running away isn't my favorite thing to do but the more I play that MU, the more I realize how much I run to win otherwise I just get bodied by those 50/50s lol.

Btw mines are WAY better then teeth imo lol

Thanks for the good read btw lol too funny

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Yo Lex's trait comes back way to damn fast I swear lol. That alone makes me hate the MU. Running away isn't my favorite thing to do but the more I play that MU, the more I realize how much I run to win otherwise I just get bodied by those 50/50s lol.

Btw mines are WAY better then teeth imo lol

Thanks for the good read btw lol too funny

Lex Is retarded

 

[StevoSuprem0]

While I disagree with some of this, I am surprised to agree with a decent portion.

Also to the nay-sayers: Hawkgirl absolutely IS that bad. If she spaces herself right, you're never even going to get the opportunity to land a hit.
Mace charge and WE are good moves, but in this MU they are absolutely not the problem; why would she ever approach/leave the sky in the first place?

Just making sure- you guys do know she falls out of the sky automatically at a certain point right? I generally stall for that and then pressure her once that's happening because when you learn the timing you can always exploit it to close the gap.
I don't think it's 3-7 personally, but you do have to make good reads to stay on her.
I honestly think one of the biggest problems with this fight is that mace charge evades gunshot.
Gunshot evasion in general I think is the biggest problem with this character, and the reason he can be zoned/spaced out so easily in many fights.

 

[Vengeance135]

Lex Is retarded

His setups are freaking amazing bro

 

[Vengeance135]

Just makIng sure- you guys do know she falls out of the sky automatically at a certain point right? I generally stall for that and then pressure her once that's happening.
I don't think it's 3-7 personally, but you do have to make good reads to stay on her.
I honestly think one of the biggest problems with this fight is that mace charge evades gunshot.
Gunshot evasion in general I think is the biggest problem with this character, and the reason he can be zoned/spaced out so easily in many fights.

I think I said you needed to make good reads to stay alive and yeah she does fall out but she can go right back up almost immediately and with her options in flight alone are just retarded lol

 

[xInfra Deadx]

just a funny read

On the subject of Killer Frost, I think this quote from an anonymous member (not named myleswright, mind you) can sum her up as a bill:

"This char is good. I get it. But she has problems that no frost player can overcome because...well a) their bad and b) She isn't this broke ass bitch.

She. Cant. Get. In.

Her only way in is slide. Not like "lol all she needs to do is slide" like "I'm serious. ALL SHE CAN DO IS SLIDE"

Her forward dash is insanely slow. Her air dash is insanely slow. Her jump attacks are meh. Her walk speed sucks. Her zoning is average. Her footsies are probably bottom 3 in the game. They are fucking nonexistant.

So yes....All that bitch can do is slide and it's on her opponent to figure out how to handle it. Now, she has 1 thing going for her of course and that's risk reward. It's so heavily on her favor that MUs become even or her advantage because of it. But her design is inherently shitty.

She literally doesn't play the fucking game. She either hits you with a slide, or she doesnt. Outside of that she has to open herself up to a parry that if she's wrong she gets fucking bodied. SHE CAN‘T HANDLE JUMP BACK. Characters like Sinestro and Adam probably body her still but everyone is too blind to see it.

Her character design is literally....I'm going to do a bunch of risky shit, and hope that when I'm right I take your entire bar. And she can do that. It's the basis of her game. But as a character she has some fucking nasty problems that no one has overcome, and no one will."

She gets bodied by a bgb. Waking up is also a risk for her. Her zoning and mobility aren't that great. I don't know if it's a better offline or not. Honestly Catwoman seems a bit harder.

Stahp.

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

I think everybody has the ability to handle any character very well unless its like a crazy 7-3 or worse MU in this game. Just because somebody can body a player with character that is at a disadvantage vs their opponent doesn't mean that the MU changes. Personally I do well against HG for the most part but its definitely a 7-3 mu in her favor because of what she has to bring to the table. If you lose to a player when you have a character that has a solid advantage over their character you just either get outplayed immensely because your opponent is smarter, you don't know the MU, or both. A case can be made for all Joker players because 90% of this community is to lazy to learn the Joker MU and say how ridiculous he is and all that but if you ask a player that knows the MU they will tell you. Joker isn't as good as people think. They're just lazy and thats why they become free to Joker until they learn the MU. Nah mean.

I think Joker needs buffs and is a bottom 3 character, but he can hold his own against BG. Dark is the best Joker we've seen the past year and he's handle every BG pretty well when he was grinding the game.

and what is doing "well" mean? Going even against Espio or Tre's HG? I only played against those guys, Maxter and Vak's HG. They all play HG very differently from each other so I don't bother measuring the MU # between HG and NW.

Plus, MU numbers are the dumbest thing anyone can do in this game. It's a transparent measurement that doesn't factor in stages, the players playstyle and the amount of experience the player has against the MU. For example, Qwark would get dropped by any Nightwing player but he thinks Joker NW is 6-4 because he plays NW's who don't know how to block crossover J2.

This community is too built up on MU #s, they yield and bend over to what's said and just co-sign, abide and don't bother.

but I'm gotta blow myself up since I haven't even mained this game since March/April and haven't been active enough to have a strong opinion, so don't mind me. But threads like this make me want to get back into the game seeing how much time and work you guys have put into these match ups, so nothing but respect. I was trying to shoot you an invite a month ago for some games, but with boxing, working full time and my attention demanding GF I never get to hop on IGAU unless it's 6AM in the morning for 30 minutes beforework. Ill keep trying tho, Joker vs NW is probably the most fun MU in the game for me.

 

[The_Furax]

@Doctor Stabs gotta be into this shit.

 

[@MylesWright_]

Jokers d3 alone out-footsies Killer Frost

 

[The PantyChrist]

I'd change a few things but I mostly agree with a lot of this. He simply doesn't have the tools to compete with a lot of the cast

 

[The_Furax]

Here's my thought about Joker and Frost MU....

I'd go really even in the corner game, Frost has good options if cornered by him but it's kinda risky most of times. Far from the corner, this mu gets really 6-4 Frost. She has the necessary to deal with him in this case.

 

[EMPR_MURK]

How does joker beat NW @Qwark28 ???

 

[Vengeance135]

Jokers d3 alone out-footsies Killer Frost

If I remember correctly, slide punishes Jokers sweep.

 

[Qwark28]

If I remember correctly, slide punishes Jokers sweep.

slide is 23f or so.

How does joker beat NW @Qwark28 ???

better normals, nightwing has meh pressure compared to joker's, joker jumps almost for free unless you pre emptively jump in staff, zoning isnt the type that gives joker much trouble. NW wakeups are not that great vs joker and do not discourage him from pressuring NW at all. Joker has more damage, better wallcarry, far better setups and a 100% corner reset. you dont want to be at either side of the corner and since you keep holding B you will eventually reach it.

 

[Vengeance135]

I think Joker needs buffs and is a bottom 3 character, but he can hold his own against BG. Dark is the best Joker we've seen the past year and he's handle every BG pretty well when he was grinding the game.

and what is doing "well" mean? Going even against Espio or Tre's HG? I only played against those guys, Maxter and Vak's HG. They all play HG very differently from each other so I don't bother measuring the MU # between HG and NW.

Plus, MU numbers are the dumbest thing anyone can do in this game. It's a transparent measurement that doesn't factor in stages, the players playstyle and the amount of experience the player has against the MU. For example, Qwark would get dropped by any Nightwing player but he thinks Joker NW is 6-4 because he plays NW's who don't know how to block crossover J2.

This community is too built up on MU #s, they yield and bend over to what's said and just co-sign, abide and don't bother.

but I'm gotta blow myself up since I haven't even mained this game since March/April and haven't been active enough to have a strong opinion, so don't mind me. But threads like this make me want to get back into the game seeing how much time and work you guys have put into these match ups, so nothing but respect. I was trying to shoot you an invite a month ago for some games, but with boxing, working full time and my attention demanding GF I never get to hop on IGAU unless it's 6AM in the morning for 30 minutes beforework. Ill keep trying tho, Joker vs NW is probably the most fun MU in the game for me.

I made this chart for a couple reasons. I've stated the majority of them but the biggest reason was because of how much I've grinded with this character and the fact that I have no pockets. While I wpuld agree with you that MU charts really don't mean much in fgs for the most part, in injustice they matter. Bad MUs are way to easy to exploit in this game due to its gimmicky nature.

Also when I say I hold my own, I mean I rarely lose the MU. I think Espio was the only HG that I haven't beaten yet and thats because I only played him once and the score was 4-2 him. Otherwise, there hasn't been a HG that has beaten me consistently in a set.

 

[Vengeance135]

slide is 23f or so.

better normals, nightwing has meh pressure compared to joker's, joker jumps almost for free unless you pre emptively jump in staff, zoning isnt the type that gives joker much trouble. NW wakeups are not that great vs joker and do not discourage him from pressuring NW at all. Joker has more damage, better wallcarry, far better setups and a 100% corner reset. you dont want to be at either side of the corner and since you keep holding B you will eventually reach it.

I'm pretty sure its a 21f startup and I was talking about whiff punishing. Using sweep as a footsie to is pretty retarded lol. Anybody can punish Jokers sweep on block.

As I said earlier, we will agree to disagree on MUs and @EMPR_MURK don't bother with this lol. I think Qwark's only garnered MU knowledge by running sets with only Chongo and since he beat Chongo pretty consistently his opinion is pretty solid. I think if he played NWs like @Dja_Homies and others he will see why its not favorable for Joker.

I will say this Qwark. You don't know the power of NWs IJ3 lol

 

[EMPR_MURK]

slide is 23f or so.

better normals, nightwing has meh pressure compared to joker's, joker jumps almost for free unless you pre emptively jump in staff, zoning isnt the type that gives joker much trouble. NW wakeups are not that great vs joker and do not discourage him from pressuring NW at all. Joker has more damage, better wallcarry, far better setups and a 100% corner reset. you dont want to be at either side of the corner and since you keep holding B you will eventually reach it.

NW has better normals imo. Joker has no real mixups so his offense is a bill. Anything thing joker does up close can get blown up. NW outzones joker pretty bad. Joker can't really jump in on NW because of NWs db1 in escrima will hit him every time due to his hitbox from his jump normals. NW also wins the footsies battle in staff. Jokers superior damage and setups in the corner would be the only reasons why this mu could be argued 5-5 or 6-4 in NWs favor. Both stances have their own way of limiting jokers mobility and in that mu, joker must come in to deal his share of damage. Thats one of NWs mus that he can win just by zoning.

 

[Qwark28]

NW has better normals imo. Joker has no real mixups so his offense is a bill. Anything thing joker does up close can get blown up. NW outzones joker pretty bad. Joker can't really jump in on NW because of NWs db1 in escrima will hit him every time due to his hitbox from his jump normals. NW also wins the footsies battle in staff. Jokers superior damage and setups in the corner would be the only reasons why this mu could be argued 5-5 or 6-4 in NWs favor. Both stances have their own way of limiting jokers mobility and in that mu, joker must come in to deal his share of damage. Thats one of NWs mus that he can win just by zoning.

@RM Chongo

You are very mistaken if you think DB1 beats the best air normals in the game of that you outfootsie jokers d2 d3 j1 j3 or that joker has no mixups. ive been playing this matchup since the game came out in every patch version, none of what you mentioned are true.

 

[Qwark28]

I'm pretty sure its a 21f startup and I was talking about whiff punishing. Using sweep as a footsie to is pretty retarded lol. Anybody can punish Jokers sweep on block.

As I said earlier, we will agree to disagree on MUs and @EMPR_MURK don't bother with this lol. I think Qwark's only garnered MU knowledge by running sets with only Chongo and since he beat Chongo pretty consistently his opinion is pretty solid. I think if he played NWs like @Dja_Homies and others he will see why its not favorable for Joker.

I will say this Qwark. You don't know the power of NWs IJ3 lol

I've played 99% of XBL nightwings, I've seen all styles and player archetypes, every single one of them has used something the others didn't so I have a pretty complete understanding on NW.