My Personal Joker MU Chart.

[Vengeance135]

@ everyone. Theres no sense in trying to change Qwarks mind about the NW MU. He obviously hasn't played a NW that gives him trouble.

@Fromundaman

I've watched your stream quite a few times when available. Now that being said, I don't see the Superman players playing the MU the way they should imo. Everything I put in the description about the MU is pretty solid. If the Superman knows the MU completely it is extremely hard to get a win. I have played the SM way more then I care to admit BECAUSE everybody mained him when he was the god of this game. Now most of those players still main him and I play them all consistently against them online and locally.

My entire MU Chart is based on if your opponent knows the Joker MU.

 

[Fromundaman]

I'm actually not so much trying to convince people as much as trying to figure out what you know that I don't, especially for HG because I am at wits end on this MU. It is one of the few MUs I won't even attempt to play anymore.


Venge, if you've seen my matches with Mod (pretty much our only Supes; unless you saw me play one of the new guys the week he was trying to learn Supes?) any advice you could give him/me on what to do better in the MU? I thought he was playing it right, but that may just be because I have yet to see someone play it better/right.

I agree though, it can be hard to beat him (That backdash more than anything else causes me so much rage...) but it doesn't feel as hard as some of the other MUs to me. Then again if he is still not playing it right the way it is now, then I could definitely see the MU being that bad once he does.

 

[SkaGoogle]

Agree with the sinestro/kf number even though you bodied me like 15-0, sad to see you go.

 

[Qwark28]

what if they're in staff waiting for movement? At sweep

j1

 

[Vengeance135]

I'm actually not so much trying to convince people as much as trying to figure out what you know that I don't, especially for HG because I am at wits end on this MU. It is one of the few MUs I won't even attempt to play anymore.


Venge, if you've seen my matches with Mod (pretty much our only Supes; unless you saw me play one of the new guys the week he was trying to learn Supes?) any advice you could give him/me on what to do better in the MU? I thought he was playing it right, but that may just be because I have yet to see someone play it better/right.

I agree though, it can be hard to beat him (That backdash more than anything else causes me so much rage...) but it doesn't feel as hard as some of the other MUs to me. Then again if he is still not playing it right the way it is now, then I could definitely see the MU being that bad once he does.

I've watched you play Mod before and that dude tried to rush you down the majority of the time. Tbh all superman needs to do is stay within F2 range or zone. Revolver can hit superman out of lasers on the ground but thats inconsistent. I can't tell you how many times I've read and reacted to both lasers on the ground and the revolver whiffed and I get hit with the laser anyway. Sometimes it hits and sometimes it doesn't which is a huge problem but then again Joker whiffs are common.

Joker can not Zone superman, but space him out for a short period of time and you have to be flawless because SM can punish any of Jokers whiffs with f23. You CAN NOT jump around either because superman has the flying AA, a godlike jump 1 and SMs d2 is freaking amazing and hard to punish on reaction, I'm pretty sure its negative but not super negative I'll get back to you on that and f2 can whiff punish Jokers Jumps.

Supermans corner game is better then Jokers and nobody can convince me otherwise. All he needs is one ambiguous Divebomb and your either dead or close enough where he can run and/or chip. F23 is still insanely good vs Joker because of Jokers lack of fast, reliable normals.

My example, after f2 or f23 ice breath, SM can either follow up with another f2 or f23 ice breath, raw ice breath, backdash, ia jump, or move back and wait for your reaction and since his f23 range is still strong enough, Jokers only smart option is to wait and see. After ice breath if you anticipate another f2 you can 11 into whatever combo and interrupt it IF THE SPACING IS RIGHT. If not your 1 and the f2 will trade or the f2 will win. Ia jump can't be beaten on reaction after breath so you need to make a correct read. SM has great corner carry like Joker does but in the corner Joker can be avoided if the sm player knows how to block or pushblock, in my case they do both.
Supermans wake ups are decent enough to where Joker has to make a read to continue his oki. He can fly out of the setup at hand or even backdash out which puts Joker in a situation to of course make the right read, assuming the sm player just ddoesn't decide to block the setup, which more players are starting to do now that they are familiar with the setups. I understand superman has to risk punishment if the divebomb is blocked btw but its hard to geta good full punish depending on the spacing of the bomb making the risk/rreward factor favor superman. If superman could divebomb you to hell like WW can then this MU would be a ggs the second you hit the corner lol

Basically Superman can play however he wants, most by spacing and zoning, assuming he does know the MU and Jokers only real way to win is by playing a reads and reaction game. Outside of that, theres not much Joker can do.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I've watched you play Mod before and that dude tried to rush you down the majority of the time. Tbh all superman needs to do is stay within F2 range or zone. Revolver can hit superman out of lasers on the ground but thats inconsistent. I can't tell you how many times I've read and reacted to both lasers on the ground and the revolver whiffed and I get hit with the laser anyway. Sometimes it hits and sometimes it doesn't which is a huge problem but then again Joker whiffs are common.

Joker can not Zone superman, but space him out for a short period of time and you have to be flawless because SM can punish any of Jokers whiffs with f23. You CAN NOT jump around either because superman has the flying AA, a godlike jump 1 and SMs d2 is freaking amazing and hard to punish on reaction, I'm pretty sure its negative but not super negative I'll get back to you on that and f2 can whiff punish Jokers Jumps.

Supermans corner game is better then Jokers and nobody can convince me otherwise. All he needs is one ambiguous Divebomb and your either dead or close enough where he can run and/or chip. F23 is still insanely good vs Joker because of Jokers lack of fast, reliable normals.

My example, after f2 or f23 ice breath, SM can either follow up with another f2 or f23 ice breath, raw ice breath, backdash, ia jump, or move back and wait for your reaction and since his f23 range is still strong enough, Jokers only smart option is to wait and see. After ice breath if you anticipate another f2 you can 11 into whatever combo and interrupt it IF THE SPACING IS RIGHT. If not your 1 and the f2 will trade or the f2 will win. Ia jump can't be beaten on reaction after breath so you need to make a correct read. SM has great corner carry like Joker does but in the corner Joker can be avoided if the sm player knows how to block or pushblock, in my case they do both.
Supermans wake ups are decent enough to where Joker has to make a read to continue his oki. He can fly out of the setup at hand or even backdash out which puts Joker in a situation to of course make the right read, assuming the sm player just ddoesn't decide to block the setup, which more players are starting to do now that they are familiar with the setups. I understand superman has to risk punishment if the divebomb is blocked btw but its hard to geta good full punish depending on the spacing of the bomb making the risk/rreward factor favor superman. If superman could divebomb you to hell like WW can then this MU would be a ggs the second you hit the corner lol

Basically Superman can play however he wants, most by spacing and zoning, assuming he does know the MU and Jokers only real way to win is by playing a reads and reaction game. Outside of that, theres not much Joker can do.

You just described my experience against him. I also find it hard to punish a whiffed f23 as joker. Green Lanterns B1 has spoiled me

 

[F4tal]

Triple post but these are my thoughts on his matchups


Hawk girl 5-5

 

[F4tal]

No way in hell this MU is 5-5 she absolutely destroys him everywhere on the screen and can just play it lame the entire match. His only chance is to corner her but even that is hard since all she has to do is trait and MC away lol.[/quote]

 

[Vengeance135]

No way in hell this MU is 5-5 she absolutely destroys him everywhere on the screen and can just play it lame the entire match. His only chance is to corner her but even that is hard since all she has to do is trait and MC away lol.

[/quote]
Agreed 100% lol

 

[F4tal]

In all honesty Dark is probably the best Joker that I have played and he is better than Qwark by far and he could barely take a game off of me when I used HG last time we played it was 15-1 or something like that and I lost because he got me cornered.

 

[Qwark28]

In all honesty Dark is probably the best Joker that I have played and he is better than Qwark by far and he could barely take a game off of me when I used HG last time we played it was 15-1 or something like that and I lost because he got me cornered.

So the best Joker can't take a game off of an online hawkgirl.

I stopped caring about this game half a year ago but lol at saying someone is better than me based on an online set I uploaded 8 months ago and no other footage whatsoever. This community never changes when it comes to sucking the dick of people they've only personally played online.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

In all honesty Dark is probably the best Joker that I have played and he is better than Qwark by far and he could barely take a game off of me when I used HG last time we played it was 15-1 or something like that and I lost because he got me cornered.

Also being "the best" doesn't mean that he will know how to play every match up the best. Stevo probably knows lobo the best, Qwark Nightwing, Fromundaman Harley, etc.

 

[Fromundaman]

I've watched you play Mod before and that dude tried to rush you down the majority of the time. Tbh all superman needs to do is stay within F2 range or zone. Revolver can hit superman out of lasers on the ground but thats inconsistent. I can't tell you how many times I've read and reacted to both lasers on the ground and the revolver whiffed and I get hit with the laser anyway. Sometimes it hits and sometimes it doesn't which is a huge problem but then again Joker whiffs are common.

Joker can not Zone superman, but space him out for a short period of time and you have to be flawless because SM can punish any of Jokers whiffs with f23. You CAN NOT jump around either because superman has the flying AA, a godlike jump 1 and SMs d2 is freaking amazing and hard to punish on reaction, I'm pretty sure its negative but not super negative I'll get back to you on that and f2 can whiff punish Jokers Jumps.

Supermans corner game is better then Jokers and nobody can convince me otherwise. All he needs is one ambiguous Divebomb and your either dead or close enough where he can run and/or chip. F23 is still insanely good vs Joker because of Jokers lack of fast, reliable normals.

My example, after f2 or f23 ice breath, SM can either follow up with another f2 or f23 ice breath, raw ice breath, backdash, ia jump, or move back and wait for your reaction and since his f23 range is still strong enough, Jokers only smart option is to wait and see. After ice breath if you anticipate another f2 you can 11 into whatever combo and interrupt it IF THE SPACING IS RIGHT. If not your 1 and the f2 will trade or the f2 will win. Ia jump can't be beaten on reaction after breath so you need to make a correct read. SM has great corner carry like Joker does but in the corner Joker can be avoided if the sm player knows how to block or pushblock, in my case they do both.
Supermans wake ups are decent enough to where Joker has to make a read to continue his oki. He can fly out of the setup at hand or even backdash out which puts Joker in a situation to of course make the right read, assuming the sm player just ddoesn't decide to block the setup, which more players are starting to do now that they are familiar with the setups. I understand superman has to risk punishment if the divebomb is blocked btw but its hard to geta good full punish depending on the spacing of the bomb making the risk/rreward factor favor superman. If superman could divebomb you to hell like WW can then this MU would be a ggs the second you hit the corner lol

Basically Superman can play however he wants, most by spacing and zoning, assuming he does know the MU and Jokers only real way to win is by playing a reads and reaction game. Outside of that, theres not much Joker can do.

I've noticed a lot of this, and both Compbros and Mod have done this to me, BUUUUUT there is one point that I do not agree with:

The revolver whiff issues are not random, and if you hold the pistol slightly longer you will ALWAYS beat the lasers (If you fire too early the bullet whiffs as he turns his head, but if you wait a little and hit him when he looks at you the laser disappears). I am probably at around 80-90% consistency on this.

That said, if he decides to do an air laser instead of a grounded one and you had gun out, your only choice is to backdash (I am a lot less consistent on that... probably 40-50% at this point).

After F2>Breath or F23>Breath we do have some options, but admittedly the risk reward is HELLA in his favor.


Thank you though; there is stuff in there I did not know. @Mod as much as it's going to make me hate the MU more, you should read the quoted post above and especially use D2/rising grab to AA me more.

So the best Joker can't take a game off of an online hawkgirl.

I stopped caring about this game half a year ago but lol at saying someone is better than me based on an online set I uploaded 8 months ago and no other footage whatsoever. This community never changes when it comes to sucking the dick of people they've only personally played online.

I don't even care about this debate but HOW THE FUCK are you going to say that when you've been posting old as fuck online matches with Chongo and using it as gospel truth for the way to play against NW?

 

[Vengeance135]

I've noticed a lot of this, and both Compbros and Mod have done this to me, BUUUUUT there is one point that I do not agree with:

The revolver whiff issues are not random, and if you hold the pistol slightly longer you will ALWAYS beat the lasers (If you fire too early the bullet whiffs as he turns his head, but if you wait a little and hit him when he looks at you the laser disappears). I am probably at around 80-90% consistency on this.

That said, if he decides to do an air laser instead of a grounded one and you had gun out, your only choice is to backdash (I am a lot less consistent on that... probably 40-50% at this point).

After F2>Breath or F23>Breath we do have some options, but admittedly the risk reward is HELLA in his favor.


Thank you though; there is stuff in there I did not know. @Mod as much as it's going to make me hate the MU more, you should read the quoted post above and especially use D2/rising grab to AA me more.







I don't even care about this debate but HOW THE FUCK are you going to say that when you've been posting old as fuck online matches with Chongo and using it as gospel truth for the way to play against NW?

Oh shit you done it now Fro lol

I'm not consistent at backdashing lasers either because Jokers dash sucks. If I remember correctly, his heat zap, the laser that can been done in the air trades with revolver if you wait to long so you got to beon point. To risk gunshot vs lasers turns uunfavorable and a true IA laser is harder to punish at certain ranges making his zoning still viable and strong at that. The fact that superman can also play mind games with lasers also make hi is zoning strong vs Joker. Of course I agree with the holding of the revolver but I believe thats subject to the laser he uses.

 

[Vengeance135]

In all honesty Dark is probably the best Joker that I have played and he is better than Qwark by far and he could barely take a game off of me when I used HG last time we played it was 15-1 or something like that and I lost because he got me cornered.

Whats your psn?

 

[Qwark28]

I've noticed a lot of this, and both Compbros and Mod have done this to me, BUUUUUT there is one point that I do not agree with:

The revolver whiff issues are not random, and if you hold the pistol slightly longer you will ALWAYS beat the lasers (If you fire too early the bullet whiffs as he turns his head, but if you wait a little and hit him when he looks at you the laser disappears). I am probably at around 80-90% consistency on this.

That said, if he decides to do an air laser instead of a grounded one and you had gun out, your only choice is to backdash (I am a lot less consistent on that... probably 40-50% at this point).

After F2>Breath or F23>Breath we do have some options, but admittedly the risk reward is HELLA in his favor.


Thank you though; there is stuff in there I did not know. @Mod as much as it's going to make me hate the MU more, you should read the quoted post above and especially use D2/rising grab to AA me more.







I don't even care about this debate but HOW THE FUCK are you going to say that when you've been posting old as fuck online matches with Chongo and using it as gospel truth for the way to play against NW?

Really dude? When did I use it as gospel other than give a general idea of how to play the matchup, I even pointed out that Chongo is not yet playing the matchup properly and must still improve. Also posted several times that all nightwings I've played are better than another in one aspect of the matchup. I haven't posted about this matchup in almost half a year when suddenly I'm going around posting online matches everywhere as gospel, fucking please LOL.

That said, Chongo has been grinding out the matchup with me and we'll play more, he improves a lot every time we play.

In this MU your main focus with NW is being mobile when Joker is chasing you with escrima and situationally in staff when you need chip or a quick mixup or two. Your main problem is you have nothing against Joker up close since that's the range where he wants you, escrima by itself is not a constant pressure and relies on reactable stuff and frametraps while staff is more read 50/50 like between parry, staff pound backdashes etc but way more susceptible to Joker's jump game without a good dash/backdash like escrima.

Before you accuse me of something, please bother posting some proof, prefferably recent. What I posted was always my opinion based on multiple NW styles being dismantled by my MU xp. As always, disagreements are bound to happen.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Really dude? When did I use it as gospel other than give a general idea of how to play the matchup, I even pointed out that Chongo is not yet playing the matchup properly and must still improve. Also posted several times that all nightwings I've played are better than another in one aspect of the matchup. I haven't posted about this matchup in almost half a year when suddenly I'm going around posting online matches everywhere as gospel, fucking please LOL.



Before you accuse me of something, please bother posting some proof, prefferably recent. What I posted was always my opinion based on multiple NW styles being dismantled by my MU xp. As always, disagreements are bound to happen.

Ok so what if they're spamming d1 up close? Sorry for all the questions I just have no idea how to play it.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

My take on the zoning Superman debate is that Joker absolutely outzones him when it's done perfectly, but it's difficult to do, and it's a lot easier for Superman to zone than it is for Joker to deal with it. But Joker has an answer for everything that supes can do while zoning.

 

[Qwark28]

Ok so what if they're spamming d1 up close? Sorry for all the questions I just have no idea how to play it.

Parry only once to set up a parry mindgame where they get paranoid and try to bait it while you passively profit from it, backdash or d1 if you think they'll do a slow mixup.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

My take on the zoning Superman debate is that Joker absolutely outzones him when it's done perfectly, but it's difficult to do, and it's a lot easier for Superman to zone than it is for Joker to deal with it. But Joker has an answer for everything that supes can do while zoning.

What about jump laser?

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Parry only once to set up a parry mindgame where they get paranoid and try to bait it while you passively profit from it, backdash or d1 if you think they'll do a slow mixup.

Joker can parry in between d1, d1?

 

[Qwark28]

Joker can parry in between d1, d1?

He's only +3 so yes.

 

[Vengeance135]

My take on the zoning Superman debate is that Joker absolutely outzones him when it's done perfectly, but it's difficult to do, and it's a lot easier for Superman to zone than it is for Joker to deal with it. But Joker has an answer for everything that supes can do while zoning.

I agree and disagree with this statement. Joker could zone him out if he was making the right reads every single time and I mean EVERY SINGLE TIME, no mistakes. That being said, thats impossible because if Joker whiffs any jump move, ground move, or any special, superman can punish it easily and or dash in freely and get within punishing range. The reason I said spacing for a short period of time is because joker can do that when he has health advantage and the Superman players getting nervous due to applied mindgames. However if hes a smart player he will wait for Joker to make a move first or force him to go so.

Jokers tools don't net him a strong zoning game in this mu do to slow start ups, whiff issues and how unsafe he is.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I agree and disagree with this statement. Joker could zone him out if he was making the right reads every single time and I mean EVERY SINGLE TIME, no mistakes. That being said, thats impossible because if Joker whiffs any jump move, ground move, or any special, superman can punish it easily and or dash in freely and get within punishing range. The reason I said spacing for a short period of time is because joker can do that when he has health advantage and the Superman players getting nervous due to applied mindgames. However if hes a smart player he will wait for Joker to make a move first or force him to go so.

Jokers tools don't net him a strong zoning game in this mu do to slow start ups, whiff issues and how unsafe he is.

Not talking about the matchup overall, just purely the zoning element.
Full screen, if you play it completely right, you can always shut down what he's doing.
Footsies are waaaayyy in his favor. Our d2 outranges his f2 SLIGHTLY, but he can dance around on that threshold and whiff punish us huge against pretty much any of our options. You are completely correct.
His j1, as you said, is also a huge problem for our air game, but I find his d2 to get stuffed by early j3's in my experience if you time it right.
For the corner game, I think he is heavily at advantage on stages with good interactables in the corner (gets fucking guaranteed 90%+ in some cases...) and we go pretty even on others.
I think the matchup is in his favor, but I don't think it's tooooo terrible. Probably the matchup I've had the most experience with, and at all levels of play.

 

[Fromundaman]

His slide punch also makes it so we can't actually zone him out (Allows him to close the gap safely while staying under the gun), but we can counterzone him fairly well.

That said, yeah it is a lot easier for Supes to zone than it is to counterzone.



Also Qwark, there's 192 pages of that Joker chat so I will not be able to pull a post out, but there are multiple instances in that chat where someone asks how to play the NW MU and you posted that same vid saying "This is how you do it". One of those posts was even what sparked the ongoing debate that has been going on about this MU.
That said I will drop this now, because you're right, I don't have the time or patience to bring proof to the table.