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My Personal Joker MU Chart.

@RM Chongo

You are very mistaken if you think DB1 beats the best air normals in the game of that you outfootsie jokers d2 d3 j1 j3 or that joker has no mixups. ive been playing this matchup since the game came out in every patch version, none of what you mentioned are true.
I've played 99% of jokers on xbl myself and I think I know what I'm talking about. Not to mention I've grinded that mu on and OFFLINE. Joker MUST come in to be affective against NW. NW beats him in every aspect except for damage and jokers resets. Every offensive thing joker does gets blown up except for his crowbar. There's no way joker wins this mu. NWs db1 is so bad online but OFFLINE if jokers jump in on NW in escrima, he get will get blown up every time.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I've played 99% of jokers on xbl myself and I think I know what I'm talking about. Not to mention I've grinded that mu on and OFFLINE. Joker MUST come to be affective against NW. NW beats him in every aspect except for damage and jokers resets. Every offensive thing joker does gets blown up except for his crowbar. There's no way joker wins this mu. NWs db1 is so bad online but OFFLINE if jokers jump in on NW in escrima, he get will get blown up every time.
I never said I only played this matchup offline. You're free to believe whatever you want, I believe this, you believe that.

FYI, no other joker has as much nw experience as I do.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
@Notez4 use to play my NW ALL THE TIME. You haven't neither me or @AK L0rdoftheFLY. Also fly also has joker losing or going even.
Like I said, you're free to believe whatever you want, that's my opinion on the matchup and I really CBF explaining all the things I learned since the beginning of the game when I dropped it months ago.
 
Yo Lex's trait comes back way to damn fast I swear lol. That alone makes me hate the MU. Running away isn't my favorite thing to do but the more I play that MU, the more I realize how much I run to win otherwise I just get bodied by those 50/50s lol.

Btw mines are WAY better then teeth imo lol

Thanks for the good read btw lol too funny
people seem to think because his trait comes back every 4 seconds means he can use it every 4 seconds, it doesnt work that way, You, as a player decide how many traits he can pop in. dont give lex the time of day to use it or to get setups started, zone him if he tries to pop trait in, zone him if he tries to use orbs. zone him if he tries to use mines .... the amount of times he traits up is the amount you allow him to, i once only got 2 traits in on a round.

also if he does get it going, just zone him to slow it down, or jump back and use crow bar
 

shad0ki11er 27

Time will only tell the Greats
i kinda agree with this MU chart but to help with the harly quinn i play one everytime i play the game and i ca really say i don't have trouble in the MU but yet my brother plays different then other players i know almost all harleys i do watch play have different play styles but i would say put it at 5-5 or 6-4 because joker has his gimmicks he can play all match and also if you play joker like me against a zoning harley i trade gun shots because jokers gun takes more damage and its fine to trade to me but also harley's jump in hits more then jokers jump in so she wins the air fight and then her armour is better also and to me it just depends on who gets the life lead so i would say 5-5
 

Fallen_sektor

I will show no mercy
I don't main the Joker but ive done pretty well against supes, the Joker controls the ground zoning and forces superman to rush him down, you can jump back 3 all day without him punishing you, ive beat good supermans with him, Imo its 5-5, I'm no expert but i could even say it feels 6-4 in jokers favor, but thats just me
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
I don't main the Joker but ive done pretty well against supes, the Joker controls the ground zoning and forces superman to rush him down, you can jump back 3 all day without him punishing you, ive beat good supermans with him, Imo its 5-5, I'm no expert but i could even say it feels 6-4 in jokers favor, but thats just me
My friend if you think the MU is like that then the good superman players you play really strongly lack the MU knowledge and therefore make themselves free to Joker. I slap superman players, shit any player that doesn't know the MU. But when they do know the MU, its a whole different game.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
i kinda agree with this MU chart but to help with the harly quinn i play one everytime i play the game and i ca really say i don't have trouble in the MU but yet my brother plays different then other players i know almost all harleys i do watch play have different play styles but i would say put it at 5-5 or 6-4 because joker has his gimmicks he can play all match and also if you play joker like me against a zoning harley i trade gun shots because jokers gun takes more damage and its fine to trade to me but also harley's jump in hits more then jokers jump in so she wins the air fight and then her armour is better also and to me it just depends on who gets the life lead so i would say 5-5
Thanks for the input. Honestly I wouldn't know about the Harley Quinn MU like that lol
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Qwark28 said:
Like I said, you're free to believe whatever you want, that's my opinion on the matchup and I really CBF explaining all the things I learned since the beginning of the game when I dropped it months ago.
While I know you definitely have a lot of NW experience, to say that you have the most would be incorrect. I also have played this MU since day 1 constantly and though I haven't played any xbox players, I can assure you that the NW players on psn are top notch players. I wouldn't say that I know the MU better then anybody else because there's still players I have yet to play like yourself.

@EMPR_MURK I strongly believe 6-4 NW for all the reasons you stated and then some. Nothing more, nothing less. Just 6-4
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
God damn it... I told myself I wouldn't do walls of text in this thread and yet here I go...

Just making sure- you guys do know she falls out of the sky automatically at a certain point right? I generally stall for that and then pressure her once that's happening because when you learn the timing you can always exploit it to close the gap.
I don't think it's 3-7 personally, but you do have to make good reads to stay on her.
I honestly think one of the biggest problems with this fight is that mace charge evades gunshot.
Gunshot evasion in general I think is the biggest problem with this character, and the reason he can be zoned/spaced out so easily in many fights.
And what are you going to do during that 1 second she chooses (Because she can cancel flight whenever she wants or extend the max duration by using specials) to hit the ground? Shoot her? If you're doing it on reaction she can duck and go back in the sky.
Dash in? That can be punished with Mace Charge or just ignored in favor of going back where you can't hit her with a jump back fly.



better normals, nightwing has meh pressure compared to joker's, joker jumps almost for free unless you pre emptively jump in staff, zoning isnt the type that gives joker much trouble. NW wakeups are not that great vs joker and do not discourage him from pressuring NW at all. Joker has more damage, better wallcarry, far better setups and a 100% corner reset. you dont want to be at either side of the corner and since you keep holding B you will eventually reach it.
IA Wingdings give Joker no trouble?! Huh... either you know something I don't or someone doesn't know how to zone you with Nightwing.

Nightwing literally never needs to get close to you in this MU ever.


I never said I only played this matchup offline. You're free to believe whatever you want, I believe this, you believe that.

FYI, no other joker has as much nw experience as I do.
I'm not sure about that...

I do get to play several offline Nightwings on a regular basis and have for quite some time; ones who understand how to play against Joker no less (Which by now I guess they'd have to).


My friend if you think the MU is like that then the good superman players you play really strongly lack the MU knowledge and therefore make themselves free to Joker. I slap superman players, shit any player that doesn't know the MU. But when they do know the MU, its a whole different game.
Heh, I don't know if you've ever watched the AL stream but I play against Mod's Superman pretty constantly and he knows the matchup extremely well (As can be seen in the matches). I sadly don't win much anymore as a result, and all that you know of the MU is probably exemplified, and yet I can't honestly consider it as bad as 7-3. I mean it's bad, but it's far from unwinnable. It definitely feels easier than a HG who knows the MU.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
And what are you going to do during that 1 second she chooses (Because she can cancel flight whenever she wants or extend the max duration by using specials) to hit the ground? Shoot her? If you're doing it on reaction she can duck and go back in the sky.
Dash in? That can be punished with Mace Charge or just ignored in favor of going back where you can't hit her with a jump back fly.
If you shoot her when she's falling (when you've timed it out well [yes she can delay, but she will still always fall after the same number of mace tosses for instance; you can track it if you're vigilant]) you get a free dash anyway.
Depends on the life. If you're down, you have to get in, so dash and see what she does. Flower beats mace charge and if she goes up again, you have a few options depending on the spacing, such as dash again or try to catch her with a jump 1/3 or HLG.
If you're up, she has to get to you, which is far less difficult for her, but she's exposing herself to getting opened up and once we catch her, there is a lot we can do. MB HLG and well placed J3s can keep her out and effectively open her up if placed well, but HLG is super risky and has to be used sparingly or she'll just work around it.
I'm not saying it's an easy matchup by any means, and it makes me salty all the time, but I recognize that I'm also not playing it perfectly most of the time either. Her neutral counters ours hard due to flight. But we have solid options where she is trying to apply pressure on the ground when you are in each others faces and a few tools that can screw up her zoning. Our oki >> her oki (though she does have some interesting little options for low profiling flower on wakeup) which is a big deal when you know how to navigate the zoning.
I peg it at a moderately tough matchup, somewhere in the realm of a 4-6 if we have to use the fucking numbers.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
God damn it... I told myself I wouldn't do walls of text in this thread and yet here I go...



And what are you going to do during that 1 second she chooses (Because she can cancel flight whenever she wants or extend the max duration by using specials) to hit the ground? Shoot her? If you're doing it on reaction she can duck and go back in the sky.
Dash in? That can be punished with Mace Charge or just ignored in favor of going back where you can't hit her with a jump back fly.





IA Wingdings give Joker no trouble?! Huh... either you know something I don't or someone doesn't know how to zone you with Nightwing.

Nightwing literally never needs to get close to you in this MU ever.



I'm not sure about that...

I do get to play several offline Nightwings on a regular basis and have for quite some time; ones who understand how to play against Joker no less (Which by now I guess they'd have to).



Heh, I don't know if you've ever watched the AL stream but I play against Mod's Superman pretty constantly and he knows the matchup extremely well (As can be seen in the matches). I sadly don't win much anymore as a result, and all that you know of the MU is probably exemplified, and yet I can't honestly consider it as bad as 7-3. I mean it's bad, but it's far from unwinnable. It definitely feels easier than a HG who knows the MU.
Ground scatter bomb = DB1. Wing dings are decent zoning tools but you beat him air to air with j3 unless he jumps faster or does it super high.

I've been playing vs NW since day 1, nevertheless, my experience is QUITE extensive on this matchup and there has never been a nightwing that used something matchup-changing against me.
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
Ground scatter bomb = DB1. Wing dings are decent zoning tools but you beat him air to air with j3 unless he jumps faster or does it super high.

I've been playing vs NW since day 1, nevertheless, my experience is QUITE extensive on this matchup and there has never been a nightwing that used something matchup-changing against me.

JI3 will NEVER beat jump back IA wingdings unless Nightwing fucked up heavily.
It can beat neutral and forward jump wingdings, but not jump back IA MB wingdings, and as long as he saves his meter for that situation, you have to block until he uses his meter or intercept him as he's leaving the ground.




Steve0, somewhere in our archives I have a set against Sonic Lionheart's Hawkgirl that illustrates the MU fairly well (AKA I get a hit she dies, but I *might* get a clean hit once a set when he fucks up).

You are wrong about the number of Mace tosses thing though. That only applies if she uses the max number of tosses, and shooting her on the way down only works if she's at the apex of her flight, which she does not need to be to stay in our blind spots. She can throw 2, drop, throw 5 more, drop, throw 1, MB the toss when you tried to guess on a landing, go back to flying.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Steve0, somewhere in our archives I have a set against Sonic Lionheart's Hawkgirl that illustrates the MU fairly well (AKA I get a hit she dies, but I *might* get a clean hit once a set when he fucks up).

You are wrong about the number of Mace tosses thing though. That only applies if she uses the max number of tosses, and shooting her on the way down only works if she's at the apex of her flight, which she does not need to be to stay in our blind spots. She can throw 2, drop, throw 5 more, drop, throw 1, MB the toss when you tried to guess on a landing, go back to flying.
I don't think you and I can convince each other of anything lol.
I disagree with how you conceive and approach the matchup regarding her flight, but I'm just gonna stop trying because I really don't care enough at this point and, hell, maybe you're right.
Carry on.
See you in MKX maybe.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
JI3 will NEVER beat jump back IA wingdings unless Nightwing fucked up heavily.
It can beat neutral and forward jump wingdings, but not jump back IA MB wingdings, and as long as he saves his meter for that situation, you have to block until he uses his meter or intercept him as he's leaving the ground.




Steve0, somewhere in our archives I have a set against Sonic Lionheart's Hawkgirl that illustrates the MU fairly well (AKA I get a hit she dies, but I *might* get a clean hit once a set when he fucks up).

You are wrong about the number of Mace tosses thing though. That only applies if she uses the max number of tosses, and shooting her on the way down only works if she's at the apex of her flight, which she does not need to be to stay in our blind spots. She can throw 2, drop, throw 5 more, drop, throw 1, MB the toss when you tried to guess on a landing, go back to flying.
Assuming you jump at the same time and you do a neutral/+1 on block j3 ( on grounded block) then you will catch nightwing due to slower startup of dings. He can not react to you jumping if you both jump at the same time.

IA wingdings are useless because they hit grounded. If you mean slightly delayed wingdings then they'll only beat a j3 if you jump after him ( hence he made a read ) or are not within sweep distance and should not be jumping any way. you dont jump at nightwing from regular jump distance. sweep distance is the perfect spot to stuff anything he has.
 

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
Assuming you jump at the same time and you do a neutral/+1 on block j3 ( on grounded block) then you will catch nightwing due to slower startup of dings. He can not react to you jumping if you both jump at the same time.

IA wingdings are useless because they hit grounded. If you mean slightly delayed wingdings then they'll only beat a j3 if you jump after him ( hence he made a read ) or are not within sweep distance and should not be jumping any way. you dont jump at nightwing from regular jump distance. sweep distance is the perfect spot to stuff anything he has.
what if they're in staff waiting for movement? At sweep
 
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