Match-up Discussion "I think you underestimate me!" Joker Match-up Discussion Thread

[Vengeance135]

@Qwark28
Actually I have played them. So who's the best Bane player I've never played? I've played everybody @oNe87_Kentucky has played, especially biohazard A LOT and they also see this MU at a hard 6-4, most likely a 7-3. I agree with most of what Kuntucky said, however I have quite a few things to add myself. Playing Grr prepatched is irrelevant to this conversation because its no longer prepatch Bane. Now bane can play this MU however he wants and there's very little Joker can do especially when the Bane player is as patient as Max or @KHAOTIC_Biohazard. Now a smart bane player will respect Jokers options, until he's in range then he can do virtually anything he wants with ALMOST no repercussions. Parry is a 50/50 tool that, if you're a smart bane player, generally would work in Banes favor because you have to make reads on some of the parried options and if you whiff Banes going to blow you up hard and you're on the ground then what do you do? You can't wake up so you're stuck blocking and guessing at if he's going to meaty grab, double punch or any follow-up really because its all armored. If you guess wrong where are you? The ground. So unless you make a godlike read and Neutral Jump 2 an oncoming throw, you're finished. Even if you do block the gap between one of his armored moves to the next is ridiculously advantageous to him because he can just follow-up with another armored move unless you read and parry. Teeth spacing in this MU is overrated, Bane doesn't have to respect teeth at certain ranges and he barely has to respect b1 acid or D2 acid. You have to see his moves coming to reacte with these and he can easily make you whiff and punish accordingly. Lets say you get a Jump in, bane blocks the Jump in and he can IMMEDIATELY go for uppercut or the overhead punch, I forget what it is. So that nullifies any starting pressure. Competing with Bane in the air is senseless because Body splashes priority is ridiculous and D2'ing it is hard. MB F3 or B3 is a strong tool for Joker unless Bane is on lvl 3 venom, and then nothing matters. Bane on debuff is your best chance besides otg mixups. However a good bane player would know Jokers options and with Banes huge and fast D2 hitbox you have to be out of range and cautious on how you approach but its your best shot. Debuff is hella quick and even if you are in the middle of Jokers time-eating combos he can just level up and it does less damage. Teeth setups are pointless unless on debuff, otg is really where you want to be. You should be doing anything that doesn't have a gap because Jokers gaps are an easy blow up for Bane. I have more I could say but I don't feel like typing anymore unless need be. If Joker wins this MU he simply out played the Bane player because this MU definitely is in his favor hard. @StevoSuprem0 and @The_PantyChrist where's your input?

 

[Vengeance135]

@Qwark28 @Sonic Lionheart 1 MU at a time please its getting hard to keep up and come back to read 30 thousand posts lol

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I've played Grr prepatch, been playing a local high lvl Bane when he used to play him and discussed the matchup with Max. It's at most 6-4 after the patch. Teeth and our air normals keep him out too well, parry is good and our combos always take over a lvl of venom, assuming Bane's at lvl 1.

I definitely disagree that air normals do anything to keep him out in this matchup. Any time Grr sees me in the air, it's a MB DP (uppercut thing)/ double punch / d2 (has pretty much the same range as ours, but a much better hitbox) / air grab, which he can choose from based on the spacing.
But, Kentucky, I think you're undervaluing teeth in this matchup. If you space yourself properly, it does a LONG way to keeping him out and buying time until he is on debuff.
Techrolling is also super important (and something I don't do enough). Always techroll on KD to limit his options for oki/pressure somewhat.
Quickly cancelling things into flower can also help to bust through his armor and create some space when he's harassing you on block with negative moves. Just do d1 or b1 into flower.
Crowbar is throw immune, so doing that can be a good tool when you think he might be going for a d2 xx command grab and won't stuff it due to the timing.
His oki simply demolishes us. Even if we guess right, the reward is nothing compared to what he gets if we're wrong in most cases. We can try to make reads with when to parry or wakeup, but he can cover his unarmored moves by cancelling them into something armored and get around whatever wakeup. Our only real reads to make are when he's gonna go for a grab, in which case we neutral jump and give him our longest juggle combo to punish it and eat time.
Smart Bane's will not use dash at all in this matchup. Being patient and dashing in is much better than throwing out random charges when I set some teeth and just block it for a big punish.
Some of his things can be MB'd through, but you have to be very aware of his Venom level. Grr has gotten good at baiting things like that or certain setups and then jumping right to level 3, knocking me on my ass, and sending me down the oki rabbit hole.
It's a very tough fight, especially because you are constantly fighting your muscle memory in the neutral game because typical Joker pressure is completely circumvented by his armor crap. However, if you play it right, it can be more manageable. I'm somewhere between a hard 4-6 or maybe 3-7.

 

[Kyu]

Thanks for the tag, I just woke up so this may be a little rocky. My Joker experience is @Vengeance135 and @oNe87_Kentucky. They are easily the 2 best Jokers on psn, without a doubt. Kentucky and I have practiced the mu a lot, gone over what Jokers options are, and how bad or good it may be for Joker. Playing Grr prepatch means next to nothing, because Bane players and Bane himself have evolved. Parry in this mu is fairly useless outside of a few setups, or to blow up a wakeup. In order for Joker to win this mu, he needs to make soooo many correct reads. The moment Bane is in Joker has to do everything in his power to get out, and he has a hard time doing it. Joker can't start his pressure either, because Bane completely controls the footsies game with his d1 and d2. The best thing Joker has is his crowbar otg, because it will stall venom time and does decent enough damage. Joker just doesn't have the right tools to deal with Bane competently. Yes Joker has nice air normals, Bane has rc on venom to get you out of the sky. Yes you have teeth, but no one has perfect spacing and Bane can blow them up after they pop. Joker needs to outplay Bane and that is the only way he will win. A patient Bane should almost never lose to Joker. These are my inputs and I'm sure Kentucky and Vengeance will agree with me. Prepatch with grr...... my god.

 

[Vengeance135]

@StevoSuprem0 teeth probably are dependent on which bane you play because Biohazard is way too patient and has great reactions. He also rarely charges in and is extremely patient so teeth really suck against him. I agree with 90% of what you said though definitely. Hopefully we get a response from a few Bane players

 

[Vengeance135]

Thanks for the tag, I just woke up so this may be a little rocky. My Joker experience is @Vengeance135 and @oNe87_Kentucky. They are easily the 2 best Jokers on psn, without a doubt. Kentucky and I have practiced the mu a lot, gone over what Jokers options are, and how bad or good it may be for Joker. Playing Grr prepatch means next to nothing, because Bane players and Bane himself have evolved. Parry in this mu is fairly useless outside of a few setups, or to blow up a wakeup. In order for Joker to win this mu, he needs to make soooo many correct reads. The moment Bane is in Joker has to do everything in his power to get out, and he has a hard time doing it. Joker can't start his pressure either, because Bane completely controls the footsies game with his d1 and d2. The best thing Joker has is his crowbar otg, because it will stall venom time and does decent enough damage. Joker just doesn't have the right tools to deal with Bane competently. Yes Joker has nice air normals, Bane has rc on venom to get you out of the sky. Yes you have teeth, but no one has perfect spacing and Bane can blow them up after they pop. Joker needs to outplay Bane and that is the only way he will win. A patient Bane should almost never lose to Joker. These are my inputs and I'm sure Kentucky and Vengeance will agree with me. Prepatch with grr...... my god.

Prepatched Bane was free as hell lol now Bane is top 5. Yeah I said it *shots fired*

 

[GGA Max]

i have no opinion @Qwark28

but youre right about the teeth being a good tool.

 

[Qwark28]

@Qwark28 @Sonic Lionheart 1 MU at a time please its getting hard to keep up and come back to read 30 thousand posts lol

That's why I tagged Chongo, to give him some information from the NW side without us neccesarily dividing attention.

@StevoSuprem0 teeth probably are dependent on which bane you play because Biohazard is way too patient and has great reactions. He also rarely charges in and is extremely patient so teeth really suck against him. I agree with 90% of what you said though definitely. Hopefully we get a response from a few Bane players

Teeth don't suck when they force a Bane player to be patient. That's their whole purpose.

I definitely disagree that air normals do anything to keep him out in this matchup. Any time Grr sees me in the air, it's a MB DP (uppercut thing)/ double punch / d2 (has pretty much the same range as ours, but a much better hitbox) / air grab, which he can choose from based on the spacing.
But, Kentucky, I think you're undervaluing teeth in this matchup. If you space yourself properly, it does a LONG way to keeping him out and buying time until he is on debuff.
Techrolling is also super important (and something I don't do enough). Always techroll on KD to limit his options for oki/pressure somewhat.
Quickly cancelling things into flower can also help to bust through his armor and create some space when he's harassing you on block with negative moves. Just do d1 or b1 into flower.
Crowbar is throw immune, so doing that can be a good tool when you think he might be going for a d2 xx command grab and won't stuff it due to the timing.
His oki simply demolishes us. Even if we guess right, the reward is nothing compared to what he gets if we're wrong in most cases. We can try to make reads with when to parry or wakeup, but he can cover his unarmored moves by cancelling them into something armored and get around whatever wakeup. Our only real reads to make are when he's gonna go for a grab, in which case we neutral jump and give him our longest juggle combo to punish it and eat time.
Smart Bane's will not use dash at all in this matchup. Being patient and dashing in is much better than throwing out random charges when I set some teeth and just block it for a big punish.
Some of his things can be MB'd through, but you have to be very aware of his Venom level. Grr has gotten good at baiting things like that or certain setups and then jumping right to level 3, knocking me on my ass, and sending me down the oki rabbit hole.
It's a very tough fight, especially because you are constantly fighting your muscle memory in the neutral game because typical Joker pressure is completely circumvented by his armor crap. However, if you play it right, it can be more manageable. I'm somewhere between a hard 4-6 or maybe 3-7.

Neutral/Backward jumps with air normals and teeth are quite good, you don't have to forward jump at all.

You can't interrupt a dp after a dp on block, you can however neutral jump it for full combo.

 

[Qwark28]

Thanks for the tag, I just woke up so this may be a little rocky. My Joker experience is @Vengeance135 and @oNe87_Kentucky. They are easily the 2 best Jokers on psn, without a doubt. Kentucky and I have practiced the mu a lot, gone over what Jokers options are, and how bad or good it may be for Joker. Playing Grr prepatch means next to nothing, because Bane players and Bane himself have evolved. Parry in this mu is fairly useless outside of a few setups, or to blow up a wakeup. In order for Joker to win this mu, he needs to make soooo many correct reads. The moment Bane is in Joker has to do everything in his power to get out, and he has a hard time doing it. Joker can't start his pressure either, because Bane completely controls the footsies game with his d1 and d2. The best thing Joker has is his crowbar otg, because it will stall venom time and does decent enough damage. Joker just doesn't have the right tools to deal with Bane competently. Yes Joker has nice air normals, Bane has rc on venom to get you out of the sky. Yes you have teeth, but no one has perfect spacing and Bane can blow them up after they pop. Joker needs to outplay Bane and that is the only way he will win. A patient Bane should almost never lose to Joker. These are my inputs and I'm sure Kentucky and Vengeance will agree with me. Prepatch with grr...... my god.

You mean pre hotfix. When the only thing that changed was Joker's pushblock damage which wasn't even the point of pushblocking him.

If Bane attacks right after teeth are gone he will be caught by teeth that are laid down a few frames before the previous teeth block. After they pop it's a guessing game of how patient the Bane is, if he gets in then that's the first mistake he does.

This is basically what machinegun D4 was to Brady back in MK9, you get harrassed by d4 3-4 times in a row and then you wanna jump because you're supposed to get a punish and then he does clone.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Neutral/Backward jumps with air normals and teeth are quite good, you don't have to forward jump at all.

Ah, ok, I thought you were talking about jumping in with them to get aggressive. Yeah, jump back 3 is our friend in this matchup.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Playing Grr prepatch means next to nothing, because Bane players and Bane himself have evolved.

I play Grr frequently, most recently being this past Sunday, just to be clear. Offline.

 

[Kyu]

Teeth really aren't that helpful in this mu, they don't force me to be patient or anything like that. If teeth pop I block and you're on the offensive, the second you cancel in any special I will armor through it and it's back to you being shat on.

 

[Qwark28]

I play Grr frequently, most recently being this past Sunday, just to be clear. Offline.

To add to this, what the fuck is "Joker pressure"?

 

[Qwark28]

Teeth really aren't that helpful in this mu, they don't force me to be patient or anything like that. If teeth pop I block and you're on the offensive, the second you cancel in any special I will armor through it and it's back to you being shat on.

You have that opinion because it doesn't sound like clark kentucky and vengance are using them properly in this matchup.

Joker is not going to rush you down when teeth pop, he'll lay down more because he gets them for free. You don't understand how this matchup is supposed to be played, Joker almost never rushes down characters like Bane, DD, WW etc.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

@StevoSuprem0 teeth probably are dependent on which bane you play because Biohazard is way too patient and has great reactions. He also rarely charges in and is extremely patient so teeth really suck against him. I agree with 90% of what you said though definitely. Hopefully we get a response from a few Bane players

Teeth aren't about charge with Bane's that know the fight, they're about slowing down the fight and limiting his options. If you space them poorly, they will seem useless because he'll just run over them (which I do all the time lol). But if you do it right, you can make it hard for him to get in and when mixing it up with jump back 3 / occasional nj2, as well as eat up venom time.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

To add to this, what the fuck is "Joker pressure"?

Just the few frame traps we have. He doesn't care due to armor, so they are invalid in the matchup.

 

[Kyu]

You have that opinion because it doesn't sound like clark kentucky and vengance are using them properly in this matchup.

Joker is not going to rush you down when teeth pop, he'll lay down more because he gets them for free. You don't understand how this matchup is supposed to be played, Joker almost never rushes down characters like Bane, DD, WW etc.

Ah ok so you are stupid. Thanks for clearing that up. If teeth pop when I'm that close to you, and you throw down more teeth, double punch catches you in recovery, carries me away from the previous teeth and now you are closer to the corner.

 

[Qwark28]

Ah ok so you are stupid. Thanks for clearing that up. If teeth pop when I'm that close to you, and you throw down more teeth, double punch catches you in recovery, carries me away from the previous teeth and now you are closer to the corner.

I'm glad you can discuss in a civil manner over a videogame.

Teeth can pop as far as jump distance. If you try to move after teeth you will be launched by the second set while hitting Joker. Hit the lab.

 

[Kyu]

I'm glad you can discuss in a civil manner over a videogame.

Teeth can pop as far as jump distance. If you try to move after teeth you will be launched by the second set while hitting Joker. Hit the lab.

I don't need to lab this mu because I play smarter Jokers than you on a regular basis. Both of them agree that this matchup is a hard 6-4 and more likely a 7-3. After playing Kentucky for multiple sets and him using multiple styles of play, teeth really aren't that useful in the matchup. But who knows maybe you are a god and will body any Bane for free because of your perfect teeth spacing.

 

[Qwark28]

I don't need to lab this mu because I play smarter Jokers than you on a regular basis. Both of them agree that this matchup is a hard 6-4 and more likely a 7-3. After playing Kentucky for multiple sets and him using multiple styles of play, teeth really aren't that useful in the matchup. But who knows maybe you are a god and will body any Bane for free because of your perfect teeth spacing.

If you can't talk like a human being then don't talk at all. This is a matchup discussion thread, not an e-peen thread for insecure kids.

 

[Kyu]

If you can't talk like a human being then don't talk at all. This is a matchup discussion thread, not an e-peen thread for insecure kids.

Ok, let's talk like human beings and get back to the match up at hand then. You say teeth will keep Bane out considering they can pop at farthest, jump distance. If your teeth placement is not 100% accurate, 100% of the time, then you will be blown up the second you cancel into more teeth. Teeth pop at jump distance, I dash up d1 double punch and carry myself away from the next teeth set. You're back on the ground and Bane is playing his game. Your air normals are also not that big of a deal, because Bane has multiple ways to blow them up. I just don't see how this is a 5-5 or a 6-4. This mu is a 7-3 for Bane's favor, no doubt in my mind.

 

[Qwark28]

Ok, let's talk like a human being and get back to the match up at hand then. You say teeth will keep Bane out considering they can pop at farthest, jump distance. If your teeth placement is not 100% accurate, 100% of the time, then you will be blown up the second you cancel into more teeth. Teeth pop at jump distance, I dash up d1 double punch and carry myself away from the next teeth set. You're back on the ground and Bane is playing his game. Your air normals are also not that big of a deal, because Bane has multiple ways to blow them up. I just don't see how this is a 5-5 or a 6-4. This mu is a 7-3 for Bane's favor, no doubt in my mind.

Teeth placement is just that, teeth placement. It doesn't mean Joker is anywhere near them, he can pop teeth and then backdash while you can do nothing just block the teeth, absorb the teeth or stay back.

100% accurate is an overestimation. Again, button happy Banes are not only easy to read but easy to armour break since teeth strip away the armour.

If teeth pop at jump distance, 2 things happen. If you block, Joker will 99% of the time lay down teeth. Try any move after that and you'll be caught mid-animation, Joker will damage you equally or even more depending on where in the animation you got launched, he will gain space and finally waste venom time.

If they whiff, Joker will lose to d1 double punch if he's up close, sometimes even double punch alone depending on when you catch him during the teeth startup frames. The whole point of teeth though is being used as a wall. A smart Joker will very rarely stay right next to a wall that is about to fall, most commonly he'll be exactly at sweep or jump distance, ready to throw either far teeth if the Bane player has been patient or close teeth if he reads his opponent being button happy, thus interrupting and punishing any hasty attacks.

Joker's air normals are a pretty big deal when used correctly, that is JB3/NJ3 and JB1/JF1. If you know when to use those you can armour break Bane.

Worth noting that Joker actually can pressure Bane on knockdown and bait him into pressing buttons by just laying down teeth. Other characters must respect Bane's oki but that's only halfway true for Joker since not waking up with venom uppercut or backdashing instantly will get him launched. This can be baited with safejumps which result in either a blocked VU or valuable space with teeth active enough to guaranteed another teeth set.

if @Grr gets on and is able to post, he'll tell you how 70% of the entire game is smart teeth placement.

 

[Vengeance135]

@StevoSuprem0 @Qwark I use teeth as a defensive tool and as I said before they only work at certain ranges and placement has to be on point. But when a bane player plays patient like they should eventually you get carried to the corner and we all know what happens in the corner. Then you need to mount an offensive when you are on a health disadvantage and Bane has all the options to stop you and doesn't need to approach you any further once he has health advantage and you manage to get out of his oki nightmare. The whole entire MU can't be placed on how well you use teeth because when you are playing a good bane player with Joker MU experience he already knows how you should be playing and what he can do to shut you out. I definitely don't see an agreement coming from this so I think I'm done unless asked for an option on something. But I do agree with @StevoSuprem0 and others are saying. @Qwark28 I think your evaluation on this MU isn't explored as much as it should have been imo

 

[Kyu]

Teeth placement is just that, teeth placement. It doesn't mean Joker is anywhere near them, he can pop teeth and then backdash while you can do nothing just block the teeth, absorb the teeth or stay back.

100% accurate is an overestimation. Again, button happy Banes are not only easy to read but easy to armour break since teeth strip away the armour.

If teeth pop at jump distance, 2 things happen. If you block, Joker will 99% of the time lay down teeth. Try any move after that and you'll be caught mid-animation, Joker will damage you equally or even more depending on where in the animation you got launched, he will gain space and finally waste venom time.

If they whiff, Joker will lose to d1 double punch if he's up close, sometimes even double punch alone depending on when you catch him during the teeth startup frames. The whole point of teeth though is being used as a wall. A smart Joker will very rarely stay right next to a wall that is about to fall, most commonly he'll be exactly at sweep or jump distance, ready to throw either far teeth if the Bane player has been patient or close teeth if he reads his opponent being button happy, thus interrupting and punishing any hasty attacks.

Joker's air normals are a pretty big deal when used correctly, that is JB3/NJ3 and JB1/JF1. If you know when to use those you can armour break Bane.

Worth noting that Joker actually can pressure Bane on knockdown and bait him into pressing buttons by just laying down teeth. Other characters must respect Bane's oki but that's only halfway true for Joker since not waking up with venom uppercut or backdashing instantly will get him launched. This can be baited with safejumps which result in either a blocked VU or valuable space with teeth active enough to guaranteed another teeth set.

if @Grr gets on and is able to post, he'll tell you how 70% of the entire game is smart teeth placement.

This is implying that all Bane's are button happy. And yes 70% of the match for Joker probably is smart teeth placement. But that doesn't make it a 5-5 or a 6-4. Bane will eventually get in, and when he does you guess right or your lifebar is done. Vengeance, Kentucky, and I will stand beside the idea of it being a 7-3 matchup. If either of them start to beat me with Joker on a regular basis, I may reconsider it. Do you have psn by chance? I'd love to see the smart teeth placement they aren't quite pulling off yet.

 

[Vengeance135]

This is implying that all Bane's are button happy. And yes 70% of the match for Joker probably is smart teeth placement. But that doesn't make it a 5-5 or a 6-4. Bane will eventually get in, and when he does you guess right or your lifebar is done. Vengeance, Kentucky, and I will stand beside the idea of it being a 7-3 matchup. If either of them start to beat me with Joker on a regular basis, I may reconsider it. Do you have psn by chance? I'd love to see the smart teeth placement they aren't quite pulling off yet.

I actually want to play you again tbh lol hmu later tonight and let's nullify that lag too so I can play a little better doooohhhhh