Match-up Discussion "I think you underestimate me!" Joker Match-up Discussion Thread

[Vengeance135]

Yeah I don't think he's unbeatable lol I just think that the amount of work put in and mixed with above factors make it unfavorable just in general lol. I mean just go by what you said for instance, if you can time this right and that right then it works, if not you're screwed. When a risk/reward factor plays in what you are doing it should be a part of your advantage/disadvantage toward a MU. 90% of the characters in this game don't have to work as hard as Joker does and imo thst already puts Joker at a disadvantage. But yeah if decimals were there 5.8-4.2 just to be a screwb. Great discuss and great points, also I don't do J3 too often because I want the damage lol I am aware of that though and do it sometimes. I'm just greedy in this MU

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Fair enough, but I disagree a bit with your assessment regarding difficulty. It's pretty widely acknowledged that Joker is one of, if not the, most difficult to characters in the game to operate. But when you're talking about these matchups like this, I think you need to look at them from the perspective of the execution of both you and your opponent being flawless. We could make arguments in any matchup that if we we're unable to execute X situation well every time, then the matchup would obviously be worse. Instead, we gotta talk about how you need to be spacing things out and navigating different situations optimally in the matchup. Assuming both sides are playing the matchup perfectly, I think the difficulty level in terms of making the right reads and such is either a wash (even), or very slightly in BA's favor because his neutral game in this fight is somewhat more straight forward and he has pretty solid punishing options (dive kick) anywhere on the screen, whereas we're more position dependent, but can punish harder.
And to clarify, no, I am in no way optimal in my execution or reads or anything really lol, but that's just how I think it's best to analyze these fights.

 

[rev0lver]

wait wtf why are people calling joker-lex 6-4

 

[M2Dave]

wait wtf why are people calling joker-lex 6-4

Joker vs. Lex is 4:6.

Hitbox Joker vs. Lex is 6:4.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

wait wtf why are people calling joker-lex 6-4

I personally think it's more of an even matchup. When we play you tend to beat me, but I think Joker has a lot of tools to deal with Lex pretty well between gunshots/parry to suppress/deal with his trait and no great wakeup options for Lex to escape several setup scenarios.
What are your thoughts on the matchup? And maybe we can get @Fromundaman or @Gilbagz to elaborate on why they think it's in Joker's favor?

 

[ThaShiveGeek]

Thanks @StevoSuprem0 I'll study the notes, but I think my downfall with BA is that 90% of the time when I've played it was always lagging bad on my end. Plus I've never fought a BA offline. This does help ALOT though.

 

[Qwark28]

My thoughts. I think 4-6, Black Adams jump arc is hella good in this MU. His J2 goes over Jokers J2 pretty consistently at their high points and leading up to it. Jokers jump 1 beats it sometimes but Adams hella active IJump1 beats Jokers everything in the air unless Joker is preemptively seeing it coming and Jumping back 3s his ass or something. D2'ing his jump arc is a pain in the ass due to his floaty jump and how his jump 2 is similar to Jokers in a sense that the hitbox moves throughout the duration from start up to finish, making it hella ambiguous at certain ranges. So I would say based off sets I've played and Lab scenarios Adam rules the air. His D2 is really good and extremely underrated, seriously check that shit out, so you can't just jump at him, you have to approach on the ground or use safe Jump options. His B2 also serves as a pretty viable AA when used correctly and is something to be respected in this MU. Adam lacks low moves besides slow lightning and d3 but is either plus or safe on his strings and normals meaning you have to fish for parries or just block until you know you can get out or strike fast enough to interrupt depending on what he's doing (lightning cancels from strings). His jump 2 divekick setups are for the most part easy to deal with unless cornered where they become imo more ambiguous. Joker can't really punish divekick at its lowest aside from seeing it and MB B3/F3 or punishing the backdash with revolver if seen coming. Mb Low lightning still trip guards Joker on third hit unless you have precise jump timing. Not that this matters unless he's on a health lead and your reactions are good enough to punish the start up preemptively. He has better use of trait and as Qwark said great meterless damage. Joker can be outzoned by a smart BA player that realizes this isn't prepatched Black Adam anymore. Imo I think Jokers strongest asset in the MU is when he knocks Adam down and/or has a decent health advantage and is with range to strike. Outside of Jokers strike range can be difficult for Joker due to what he has to respect, especially with health disadvantage. when Joker has health advantage he can play a bit more relaxed but would want to get it over quickly because Adam can change the tide with one good hit. @Qwark28 don't talk down to me like I'm an idiot because I know you will disagree with me. Be civil

I liked the last sentence so I liked the post before I read it.

Adam must pre emptively J1, if you've got him that scared to whiff an 80+ frame jump then you've already got the advantage

His D3 can not anti air J3 or J1 when you space them as you should.

B2 must be done pre emptively, it's 15f, also won't catch J3/J1.

Air to air when he jumps, a BA will never just fullscreen jump onto you, he can do normals, mb divekick, close divekick etc.

His J2 is not ambiguous whatsoever once you learn its ranges, if BA tries to do it earlier to hit from the front he can't convert.

He literally can't open you up. He also gets no damage whatsoever for disrespecting his frametraps if he doesn't have trait and even then it's too valuable to waste on d1 orb combos.

MB low lightning does that when you've pre emptively jumped. It also doesn't matter at all because he's knocking you down with the last lightning which deals 2% and he spent a bar to do it.

 

[Vengeance135]

@StevoSuprem0 and @Qwark28
tbh I won't even argue this MU which is why I rathered Qwark put his input because he uses the character. Out of all the MUs in this game, Black Adams the least I've played since his nerf. Outside of little things I've checked here and there, your analysis will be more knowledgeable then anything I could say. I will definitely keep all you guys said in mind for my next Black Adam fight and I appreciate the maturity Whorek

 

[Fromundaman]

I was waiting for Eevee to come back from military to post in this MU so that we could run the BA/Joker MU before I posted. That then asked his opinion since he has played the MU as Joker against more notable BAs than I.

Basically here's what we came up with:

Pros:

-A lot easier for Joker to approach BA than for BA to approach Joker, making the health lead important.
-Oki game is way better for Joker.
-Not sure what you guys are talking about lightning cage messing up BGB setups. Depending on when you jump over BA, you can change his inputs at any point, making it very hard for him to lightning cage so long as you don't use the same timing every time. On top of this late teeth will catch his wakeup in it's recovery. BA's best bet to get out is a well timed backdash.
-There are a few ways to consistently stuff Lightning Cage, but many of them are very strict on timing or spacing dependent (For example D2>Crowbar will always beat it, but only at a certain range). On top of that most ways to stuff the wakeup make the knockdown situation easier to block.
-With gun held out, Joker can punish Divekick, lightning strike, black magic, dashes and bomb on reaction before they hit.

Cons:

-Can't really punish divekick on block unless it's done really high (or with flower if you have AI level execution). That said, jump backs and MB B3 will beat it out.
-BA actually has some very nasty setups in the corner with the bomb making his corner game dangerous as well.
-Lightning Cage is a very good wakeup.
-The timing is a bit strict, but Black Magic can punish a whiffed gunshot.


Miscellaneous notes:

-While BA's pressure does more damage thanks to trait, it is very straightforward and easy to block/pushblock. On the flip side, Joker's pressure is a little less damaging, but harder to block and can lead into more/back into itself on bad guesses. They both put you in + frames for days.




@AL Eevee what am I missing?

 

[Qwark28]

Timing is not stricter than FTD punishing gunshot, it's easy.

 

[Fromundaman]

Timing is not stricter than FTD punishing gunshot, it's easy.

Oh okay. I stand corrected then.



Also I forgot to add this to the cons list:

-If BA is crouching, there is a gap in the 212 string.

 

[The PantyChrist]

Oh okay. I stand corrected then.



Also I forgot to add this to the cons list:

-If BA is crouching, there is a gap in the 212 string.

Oh god I saw that shit happening with shazam to you the other day too

 

[Fromundaman]

Oh god I saw that shit happening with shazam to you the other day too

Haha yeah, I tend to forget the characters 212 whiff on. That said it doesn't whiff on BA like on Shazam. BA has the 3rd hit whiff, giving him a very small window to do a D1.

 

[The PantyChrist]

We'll fortunately against black Adam his only true d1 special is lightning hands I think, which is full screen and a kd. I'd take that over full combo Into setup. Also it seems like more and more characters it starts to whiff on. I don't use that string often cus I don't like dealing with the whiff/ uncancellability

 

[Fromundaman]

We'll fortunately against black Adam his only true d1 special is lightning hands I think, which is full screen and a kd. I'd take that over full combo Into setup. Also it seems like more and more characters it starts to whiff on. I don't use that string often cus I don't like dealing with the whiff/ uncancellability

Well, the whiff issue on 3rd hit isn't as bad since they have a small window to abuse it and have to press something as the 3rd hit comes out, meaning that canceling on the 2nd hit will punish them for trying to abuse the whiff issue.
Basically turn that whiff into a mindgame.

 

[The PantyChrist]

Are we done with Bladam?

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I think so. Unless anyone has anything else to add? I wanted to get a BA player's opinion, but Smar didn't go for it when I tagged him and I dunno who else to tag. Qwark covered that perspective though.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Back to the main event:

This douchebag.
Since @AL Eevee is back, he and @Fromundaman are free to state their case on how the hell they think this is an even matchup.
Commence the proceedings.

 

[Vengeance135]

Back to the main event:

This douchebag.
Since @AL Eevee is back, he and @Fromundaman are free to state their case on how the hell they think this is an even matchup.
Commence the proceedings.

I cant wait to hear this lol no offense guys

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I guess we're waiting on Aquaman for now...
Soooooo...
Let's just put that annoying Batgirl crap to bed now!

Most of us believe this one to be a slight advantage in Batgirl's favor, primarily due to superior options in the neutral game (@Youphemism go ahead and state your case otherwise), while some believe it to be in more even territory. In a battle of strong corner shenanigans, does the advantage lie with the character that has safe 50/50 meterless adjective-filled vortexes all over the place, or the one that has all sorts of mind games to play with teeth? You decide; DISCUSS!
@SonicFox5000 you're input would be greatly appreciated, since you have experience with both these characters and are a disgustingly good player.
@Vengeance135 @Qwark28 @Fromundaman @AL Eevee @The_PantyChrist

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Can anyone explain HOW to play this match up first of all. Because the main of this is to learn what we CAN do to win.

 

[TKB]

Can you guys tag me when you start talking about Deathstroke please?

@Vengeance135
@StevoSuprem0
@Fromundaman
@any other Jokers discussing matchups in this thread

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Can you guys tag me when you start talking about Deathstroke please?

@Vengeance135
@StevoSuprem0
@Fromundaman
@any other Jokers discussing matchups in this thread

It's 6-4 joker. 7-3 on fortress of solitude.

 

[SonicFox5000]

Six.
Four.
Batgirl favor.
As strong as jokers neutrl game is. It is not as dangeroys as Ams neutral. The only time this MU becomes 5/5is when joker gets bg in the corner, which batgirl has like 50 options that get her out due to Jokers lack of mobility. He csn get zoned and rushed down. Joker needs gimmicks to win but BG is not having it.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Six.
Four.
Batgirl favor.
AS STRONG AS JOKERS NEUTRAL GAME IS. It is not as dangeroys as Ams neutral. The only time this MU becomes 5/5is when joker gets bg in the corner, which batgirl has like 50 options that get her out due to Jokers lack of mobility. He csn get zoned and rushed down. Joker needs gimmicks to win but BG is not having it.

what can joker do to win