Why do we let EVO treat us like this?

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

no, at the time i made my game request, i had no idea who would do sfv. i just figured it'd be james and seth! i didn't know there'd be a separate espn stream and that sajam would get the nod on the twitch stream. that said, i'm really happy for sajam that he got top 8. i think he thought he'd get ki top 8, and he said he felt out of place doing sfv, but i'm glad he got to!

I'm so happy for all of you guys, man! Right now in Australia some of our production value outside of majors is lacking and we don't really have true commentators for each game. As much as I love competing in MKX, I'm super pumped to work on my commentary and try to establish a better viewing experience for people watching our stuff. You guys are undoubtedly the people to watch when trying to improve on commentary, so I'm very appreciative of the work you've all done and so happy about the opportunities it's brought for you guys so far!

 

[Undergroundepict]

The underlying problem is that SFV (and its predecessor) is privileged as fuck and as a result games like MKX, Guilty Gear, and even Melee at this point are unduly but inevitably oppressed. You could argue that this is a problem with almost all majors in the FGC, but with EVO it is by far the worst.

SFV is so clearly all that the promoters care about that everybody else's shit is haphazardly and careless thrown together with zero regard for how it affects the competitors, spectators, or even the perception of the tournament itself. Shit looked rinky-dink as fuck for "the most prestugious fighting game tournament on Earth."

None of this is intended to disparage Street Fighter players or to put down Street Fighter V. SFV is an awesome game. It's still the most popular fighter worldwide, and as such still deserves top billing. The issue is that by lobbing an endless barrage of privilege and promotion SFV's way while moving MKX into an 8:00 AM breacket and forcing Melee (fucking Melee!) to fight for its life in a charity war against Skullgirls, you create a self-fulfulling prophecy where not only does SF remain #1 forever regardless of virtue, but you do not even allow a viable #2 fighting game to make its way in and achieve mainstream hype. Every game that isn't Street Figter is discarded to the bottom of the pile every time it has so much as the slightest drop in tournament attendance or stream viewership from month to month.

 

[WATCHD0G]

.
With commentators, UD has ALWAYS beeb with us from the start. Easily one of my favs, HOWEVER, K&M literally gave up their tourny spots for this and werent chosen for top 8 commentary.

Yup that's where my main problem with that issue is. David has every right to commentate any of our tournaments, he always does a good job. I just think that K&M should have been chosen because of what they gave up and how far they flew to get here.
No one should ever question David's legitimacy, (Hell more than half the people talking in this thread aren't even as involved as he is) but in this case, respectfully, I think K&M should have had that.

OK that is the last i will say about commentary, there are other probably even more pressing issues that we should be talking about instead of who belong where.

Like the fact that KP3 dream is pretty much dead

 

[iSuckAtFightingGames]

I find it mildly insulting how some people are treating UD and Aris, and while K&M are great casters, they have a lot they need to work on. Only UD, Aris, Aquaman and KP understand that casting is not just about technical descriptions and gasping moments to bring hype.

Humour and personality count and it is a "show", a "performance" as much as anything. There is a reason why Aris and UD have so much cross game appeal. They are massively entertaining. There is so much more to casting than just describing what is happening and talking about game tech, something K&M are only just now starting to get comfortable with.

IMO, the only NRS scene caster ready for the big massive stage is KP. He has all the tools. He is funny as all hell, has the respect of the current NRS crowd, has the knowledge of the community and the game tech and has an extreamly positive attitude about the game and the players. KP also is able to cast with anyone. K&M are getting there, do not get me wrong they are extreamly good, but they lack the x-factor that makes non-nrs players tune in and love the show and when teamed with others they tend to talk all over them.

The facts that people are ignoring here about the casting is that K&M have been casting professionally for such a short time. I'm 100% certain they will end up absolute pros but in my mind they still need some cooking. No one is saying they haven't come in and made a huge impact, but they are still super new at this compared to many of the other guys casting and I feel while they are learning fast, they have a lot to learn. No one starts right at the top, you have to get there.

I'm not upset anymore about NRS folks viewing me as an outsider. I know that if 5 years of playing, finding tech for, & commentating NRS games didn't change minds, many of whom hadn't even started playing these games till later, that 6 years wouldn't either. I don't see myself quitting MK or ignoring Injustice 2, so, get used to it!

Just need to add my own positives on you and Aris Top 8... you guys were awesome and brought the mega hype. Do not listen to the random few, many of the NRS scene, especially the older crew know you and know your contribution.

 

[Doombawkz]

I'm not upset anymore about NRS folks viewing me as an outsider. I know that if 5 years of playing, finding tech for, & commentating NRS games didn't change minds, many of whom hadn't even started playing these games till later, that 6 years wouldn't either. I don't see myself quitting MK or ignoring Injustice 2, so, get used to it! But that's on you guys who feel that way to get over, not on me to worry about how to change.

I don't think anyone sees you as an outsider, but no one was ready for Aris claiming Demolition Sonya is "never complained about, the hardworking honest Sonya who earns her wins" and all of that jazz. To be frank, I'd rather have you in the box than most people because you work well with lots of others and know the game so you provide that great dynamic. Literally anyone + Ultradavid is a good combo, Aris was the off one to me. No offense to him, of course, but.... yeah.

Glad to hear you being here for Injustice 2 though.

 

[iSuckAtFightingGames]

To be frank, I'd rather have you in the box than most people because you work well with lots of others and know the game so you provide that great dynamic. Literally anyone + Ultradavid is a good combo

I love Aris commentary, I watch Tekken and well pretty much anything he casts just for him, I do not even like Tekken.

That being said Ultradavid + KP would be an awesome combo

 

[GAV]

I think we are truly blessed as a community to have so many good commentators wanting to commentate MKX. We just thought it was understood that K&M were giving up their spots as competitors so they could commentate the top 8. When it wasn't them, the community had to adjust to the fact that two guys that represent us better than we could ever hope got a raw deal. They represent us, so a slap in the face to them is a slap in the face to us. It makes it personal.

 

[xxE.Txx]

What is with the train of thought that WB money should get you a better time?

I don't think anyone sees you as an outsider, but no one was ready for Aris claiming Demolition Sonya is "never complained about, the hardworking honest Sonya who earns her wins" and all of that jazz. To be frank, I'd rather have you in the box than most people because you work well with lots of others and know the game so you provide that great dynamic. Literally anyone + Ultradavid is a good combo, Aris was the off one to me. No offense to him, of course, but.... yeah.

Glad to hear you being here for Injustice 2 though.

I heard that during one of the matches and it sounded like Aris was being sarcastic when he said it. Maybe thats just me.

 

[Soul Bound X]

We're also one of the newest communities, and we grow every year, so you've got a moot point.
707 people spent minimum $60 for entry, and we shouldnt be considered?

So if infiltration wins EVO, should we be show the SFV scene less love because he's only lost 1 major he's entered?

I think we could learn from the smash community tbh, they support themselves so well for a community that others shun.

We don't change games though. That's one of the biggest problems here. There isn't a "smash Scene". There is a melee scene and a smash 4 scene . We are friends but we aren't the same scene. You guys can't switch games every two years and expect huge growth. You need to stick with one game longer. Not necessarily 15 years like we have but a lot longer than just 2 .

 

[GLoRToR]

Due to the delivery and overall attitude towards their games from WBGames they aren't held in the highest regard, as well as NRS themselves are considered pretty much a joke in the industry currently.

It is still wrong to treat PEOPLE like this.

I just kinda see both sides of the story. MKX is considered the joke of the decade because of the PC fiasco and how it dwarves in comparison to better fighting games out there. Taking it out on good players and a fun and hype community though, that's just bad.

 

[iSuckAtFightingGames]

the only good thing out of smash was how Hbox single handedly made the entire smash community salty babys by winning EVO over their self proclaimed "Gods"

meh... I really hate that game and its scene is not much better imo... but it is as legit a scene and a game for evo as MK and Injustice.. I just do not like it.

It isn't my place to tell a huge HUGE fan base that is arguably larger and more passionate than my own that their game is a waste of time. People have different tastes and that is about it. They support their game, they get into it and they have super fun and bring the hype.

TYM and the NRS scene should look to smash as an example of how it is done and build the NRS scene up instead of spending most of its time complaining and tearing our own scene down.

 

[Soul Bound X]

the only good thing out of smash was how Hbox single handedly made the entire smash community salty babys by winning EVO over their self proclaimed "Gods"

Hbox has been considered a God for years. And earlier this year there was a tournament called "Battle of the five Gods" where the 5 Gods attended and hbox won and got a trophy that said "The one true God". So he is as godly as they come. He's not an underdog. BUT that was his first evo win. And the community is fine with him winning, it's just the mango fans who are upset.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

If any major pulled this shit with ANY game, that would be a death sentence for that tournament, but since it is evo and it has a massive legacy. This has gotten a pass from a huge amount of players. This should NEVER be acceptable for ANY major, we shouldn't allow this to happen not only for our game but ANY game. This kind of behavior and set up is unacceptable. Hell this year the lanyards misspelled the word "championship" I understand that it was difficult because they are growing more but when you grow more the standards get higher. There is less room for error. Because of how huge EVO is they need to be held accountable for all their shortcomings that way they can grow to be a better tournament. They need to treat all the games they host with respect, have actual seating for said games in the main venue, etc.
TL;DR

 

[villainous monk]

So.... What is the next step?

Who do we talk too and how much support will we need from NRS & WB?

Do we let it die after most of you have vented or do we move on and see what we can do as the best step forward.

If evo was this bad and other tournament organizers might know now how do we prevent such issues like this from happening again.

I think it's started. The communication from the community seems somewhat agreeable in some retrospectives.

Props to @A F0xy Grampa for bringing this to light. I saw from the stream the looks on people's faces. I can feel it and understand your concerns.

Where do we as a young community do next? Lots of ideas are being floated around.

This communication is honestly a very good step forward I would think.

 

[Bugman]

Can we all just said MKX at EVO is the greatest even though everything are unorganized.

@UltraDavid your commentary is life. Do what you do best.

 

[Undergroundepict]

I dont think we should leave EVO, but there needs to be communication. I dont want to experience whats suppose to be the superbowl of fgc to run us mk players so poorly again.

That's just the thing. There is no communication. You go to CEO, and Jebaily is literally everywhere, micromanaging his event in order to ensure that even the most sublte and nuanced detsils are going smoothly, talking to participants and spectators, taking feedback, and just generally being visible and human. I don't even know the names of the people running EVO, and am beginning to doubt that they are human at all, but are instead some insensate, amorphous corporate monolith.

EVO is a corporate as fuck event inspired by avaricious cynicism and a vampiric compulsion to engorge itself on authenticity, and by process of digestion, denature, defile, and debase it.

EVO is the antithesis of all the FGC stands for, but as long as they keep churning out $50k pot bonuses, unbelievably competitive and entertaining Top 8's, and ESPN2 exposure, the community really has no choice but to return every year and play along with them.

 

[B. Shazzy]

lmao

undergroundepict for nrs cup president

 

[jmt]

The best commentators are easily kp, 16-bit and Brady.

No one else is even close.

 

[Aramonde]

@iSuckAtFightingGames sorry for the nitpick but it was MvC3 not 2.

 

[Ayase Chihaya]

Did you guys stop to think that it's EVO - we get a lot of viewers which know NOTHING about MKX. For them, it's likely more enjoyable to listen to David & Aris which cater to the casual viewer rather than K&M which likely will use a lot of strict MKX terms or inputs. It's not uncommon to hear them say "OH THERE HE GOES WITH THE B3 INTO DBF2, WILL HE USE THE NEGATIVE EDGE SETUP TECH OKI AND BREAK SUPER ARMOR?". That doesn't make any sense to an average viewer, while David hype and Aris made up terms make a lot more sense while they use more common FGC terms.

For me, I rather have K&M because I know the game but I don't blame EVO - I also love David and Aris so it's a win-win for me.

 

[SinkFla]

The problem with the "Not our Commentators" mindset is that it approaches the line of thinking within the Capcom community. A lot of the die hard Capcom enthusiasts tend to have an insular outlook on the FGC when it comes to anything other than MvC and even more so with Street Fighter. They knock NRS games for taking less skill (ignorance) at a competitive level and overall just don't take the game or the community very seriously. I have nothing but the utmost respect for K&M and absolutely love their commentary. I think their personalities and commentary make even the most boring matches exciting, so I would have loved for them to be there on stream for Top 8.

However, I also think Ultra David and Aris did a wonderful job ESPECIALLY considering they tend to be viewed as outsiders. I think that is a little unfair not only reciting UD's post earlier, but given that they chose to commentate a game with way fewer entrants and one with a tournament starting first thing in the morning. Clearly, they are passionate about the game.

To have them on stream makes sense because if UD is recognized as a "Street Fighter" guy, then it could possibly give Street Fighter fans a better idea of the legitimacy of our game and maybe get more people to give it a chance. The more people the better, as the community will continue to grow and that is in the best interest of everyone.

Also, somebody mentioned it earlier.... but I really would like to see K&M commentate SF!

EDIT: Holy shit Ayase you basically said the same thing haha.

 

[vicious1024]

That's just the thing. There is no communication. You go to CEO, and Jebaily is literally everywhere, micromanaging his event in order to ensure that even the most sublte and nuanced detsils are going smoothly, talking to participants and spectators, taking feedback, and just generally being visible and human. I don't even know the names of the people running EVO, and am beginning to doubt that they are human at all, but are instead some insensate, amorphous corporate monolith.

EVO is a corporate as fuck event inspired by avaricious cynicism and a vampiric compulsion to engorge itself on authenticity, and by process of digestion, denature, defile, and debase it.

EVO is the antithesis of all the FGC stands for, but as long as they keep churning out $50k pot bonuses, unbelievably competitive and entertaining Top 8's, and ESPN2 exposure, the community really has no choice but to return every year and play along with them.

After a quick Google search:

Evolution Championship Series

• Tom "inkblot" Cannon (twitter)
• Tony "Pond3r" Cannon (twitter)
• Joey "MrWizard Cuellar (twitter)
• Seth Killian (twitter)

MrWizard and the Cannon brothers have been running Evo for an extremely long time, and were part of the FGC for time before that.

Tony is a huge contributing factor to why the netcode in MKXL is good as it is now. He created GGPO.

There is a reason Seth Killian was chosen to be one of the commentators for ESPN. His knowledge of fighting games - from both a designer and player perspective - is paralleled by very few.

Seth and the Cannon brothers all worked to create Rising Thunder.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Smash got time slots that should have gone to MKX.

Until it is understood that real fighting games get the nod over everything else - regardless of the numbers - there are going to be problems.

What is real? Pure fighting games are real. Smash is a plat-former. In the future, there is going to be a phone game at EVO. It needs to be understood the pure fighting games will get the nod going forward.

MKX is a real fighting game. Smash is a platformer.

I warned you about posting this drivel before. No longer going to put up with it here -- makes us all look bad.

 

[Gilbagz]

Exactly what i'm talking about. That's a good example of what i'm talking about. In the SFV community, top tier is just top tier. In the NRS community, top tier is disgusting and broken.

None of the top tier are borderline broken on this game. They're probably not better than Chun or Nash are in SFV. I mean Chun actually causes significant upsets. The people who pick up Alien/Mileena and win, were already winning.

It's just repeated hyberboles that make characters seem better than they actually are. Mileena and Alien hit you one time and enforce a 50/50 hard to blockable vortex. They have 30% chip blockstrings with prepatch meterbuilding, like Kung Lao and Shinnok did in June. They're CEO Tanya.

Wait, none of that is true. All of that stuff has been toned down or taken out completely. Even those characters weren't borderline broken, if you're using the word broken in a literal sense. I don't think anyone does on this site. It's the #1 hyperbole.

Also, as far as comparing the input delay goes, here you go. http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016/mar/15/street-fighter-5s-input-lag-more-four-times-skullgirls-or-mortal-kombat-x-research-video-battlenonsense-eye-opening/

Seriously random as fuck
But tweedy you are one of the smartest posters on tym.
Props to you.

In before i get blown up for agreeing with you lol

 

[God Confirm]

tweedy is the motherfuckin man