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Who is the biggest upplayer for each character?

Ra Helios

Ra Helios

Omnipotent God-like Selina Kyle Player
WoundCowboy said:
This doesn't make sense. Nobody is saying "fuck you if you don't believe it." The match has been described in detail by Bit numerous times. You are choosing to listen to a person that lists superficial things about the MU and who does not have experience against a top Bane player.
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Biohazard. I just shut your whole conversation down
 
E

EMPR_MURK

Noob
MITDJT said:
tournament matches/ long sets play a big part in matchup discussions. You think daigo (best ryu period in sf4 series overall) would feel that ryu has problems vs dhalsim if he hadn't ran into Filipino champ, YHC mocha, and other top dhalsim players at American majors, Japanese majors, Topanga League, and etc.? Arguments aren't very credible without concrete evidence backing them up, that is just how things go with arguments. If a sports analyst says a team has (bad defense) but they don't provide any statistical evidence actually backing that up, what do you think people are going to think/ say about him?
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Everything you said was on point...BUT, there's difference between sports and a fighting game especially when it comes to the discussion of a mu but I'd rather not get into that. I honestly said it is a 6-4 (bane/cw) to troll 16bit because its funny when he pops off. The bane/cw mu is up for discussion when you have other players of those characters disagreeing especially when one of them is top 8 placing player. That's just how it is bruh since thats how this works I guess. I feel a tournament set does not determine the mu more than a true long set to really grind it out.
 
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EMPR_MURK

Noob
HGTV Soapboxfan said:
I guess that's a fair point. I just don't understand how we can't have an intelligent (and legible) discussion about the game.
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We can but then the egos and arrogance start to come out when other character representatives of the same character attempt to give their thoughts. It really all just comes down to the statistics which is fair but stupid.
 
Kyu

Kyu

CHOO CHOO BANE TRAIN
Jesus I can't believe the amount of anger and salt. God damn. Alright anyway I'm gonna give my opinions on the CW Bane match because I know it quite well. Do I know it as well as Max? No probably not. But I'll say I know it second best of any Bane from hundreds of games with Rainbow, Starcharger, and 16 Bit. I am also not on Max's level but I have a fair understanding of my character and his tools.

Ra brought up fair points but didn't realize the counter arguments. You can dash under the mb VU. Ok well what if he does a regular one? 33 after a blocked double punch? This used to fuck me up because Rainbow does it all the time. Just neutral jump or backdash forward dash 113. 60%+ punish on a wrong guess. Let me say this again. 60%+ WHIFF PUNISH. WHIFF PUNISH. I AM GETTING 60%+ WITH 2 BARS ON A FUCKING WHIFF PUNISH. On knockdown, Catwoman can do a 33 to blow up his armor. This works half the time in my experience, the timing is tight and if I delay the wakeup the invincibility frames can stuff 33. This also takes away the hope for a 50/50 on wakeup, which is how Catwoman wins most of her games. Her strong 50/50s. You need to properly space your jb2. Ok yes you do, but what will jb2 get you if Bane has the lifelead? Nothing. If Bane makes the right read you're on knockdown again. React to grab after tick throws. It's not reactions it's a guess. No other top player says they can react to that grab, there's almost no chance in hell Ra is reacting to it. It's a read. Bane's d1 is broken, and his d2 might be even more broken. Even with PERFECTLY spaced jump in 2 from Catwoman, Bane can still anti air her 100% of the time with air grab, and armor through ALL follow ups from j2 except standing 3. If a Catwoman player is doing 33 after j2, I can backdash it, and even if I can't backdash it, she is sacrificing a 50/50 for safety, when 50/50s are her main game point. My biggest example is this. The fact that I can actually beat 16 Bit in casuals as Bane or in tournament, albeit not as hard as Max but I'm not as good, should tell you something. Top player and evo finalist vs 14 year old Bane player. Wat. This is just how I see the matchup, and I'm not going to take Biohazard losing an ONLINE ft5 as realization it's not a 7/3 or a 8/2 in Bane's favor. I just need to see better results. No discredit to Ra Helios either he's a great player from what I hear, but online sets simply won't do it, especially when it's just 1.
 
Kyu

Kyu

CHOO CHOO BANE TRAIN
Ra Helios said:
Well if thats the case then why did biohazard outplace max at evo?
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There are different paths in pools and everyone has bad days. 0 disrespect to Biohazard he is an amazing Bane player and quite smart. But truthfully Max is on another level than all other Bane players.
 
E

EMPR_MURK

Noob
Kyu said:
Jesus I can't believe the amount of anger and salt. God damn. Alright anyway I'm gonna give my opinions on the CW Bane match because I know it quite well. Do I know it as well as Max? No probably not. But I'll say I know it second best of any Bane from hundreds of games with Rainbow, Starcharger, and 16 Bit. I am also not on Max's level but I have a fair understanding of my character and his tools.

Ra brought up fair points but didn't realize the counter arguments. You can dash under the mb VU. Ok well what if he does a regular one? 33 after a blocked double punch? This used to fuck me up because Rainbow does it all the time. Just neutral jump or backdash forward dash 113. 60%+ punish on a wrong guess. Let me say this again. 60%+ WHIFF PUNISH. WHIFF PUNISH. I AM GETTING 60%+ WITH 2 BARS ON A FUCKING WHIFF PUNISH. On knockdown, Catwoman can do a 33 to blow up his armor. This works half the time in my experience, the timing is tight and if I delay the wakeup the invincibility frames can stuff 33. This also takes away the hope for a 50/50 on wakeup, which is how Catwoman wins most of her games. Her strong 50/50s. You need to properly space your jb2. Ok yes you do, but what will jb2 get you if Bane has the lifelead? Nothing. If Bane makes the right read you're on knockdown again. React to grab after tick throws. It's not reactions it's a guess. No other top player says they can react to that grab, there's almost no chance in hell Ra is reacting to it. It's a read. Bane's d1 is broken, and his d2 might be even more broken. Even with PERFECTLY spaced jump in 2 from Catwoman, Bane can still anti air her 100% of the time with air grab, and armor through ALL follow ups from j2 except standing 3. If a Catwoman player is doing 33 after j2, I can backdash it, and even if I can't backdash it, she is sacrificing a 50/50 for safety, when 50/50s are her main game point. My biggest example is this. The fact that I can actually beat 16 Bit in casuals as Bane or in tournament, albeit not as hard as Max but I'm not as good, should tell you something. Top player and evo finalist vs 14 year old Bane player. Wat. This is just how I see the matchup, and I'm not going to take Biohazard losing an ONLINE ft5 as realization it's not a 7/3 or a 8/2 in Bane's favor. I just need to see better results. No discredit to Ra Helios either he's a great player from what I hear, but online sets simply won't do it, especially when it's just 1.
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True but biohazard also has agreed that it could be a 6-4 bane. Wouldn't biohazards opinion count just as much as max??? Considering they are both top 8 placing bane players.





Btw I've missed trolling u
 
cR WoundCowboy

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
Ra Helios said:
Well if thats the case then why did biohazard outplace max at evo?
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I mean, he outplaced him by two spots. Tournament placings don't prove much unless that person places top 8 consistently. No Bane player places consistently. I am not sure why you are so adamant about the MU when you haven't played the best Bane.
 
Kyu

Kyu

CHOO CHOO BANE TRAIN
EMPR_MURK said:
True but biohazard also has agreed that it could be a 6-4 bane. Wouldn't biohazards opinion count just as much as max??? Considering they are both top 8 placing bane players.





Btw I've missed trolling u
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Bio's opinion doesn't count as much as Max's on this MU. You have to remember that Max and Bit have factually played this matchup more than 1000 times. I can't believe Bio has that level of experience on such a high level. If he does he can correct me himself. A ft5 he lost online to Helios doesn't do it for me.
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Noob
EMPR_MURK said:
True but biohazard also has agreed that it could be a 6-4 bane. Wouldn't biohazards opinion count just as much as max??? Considering they are both top 8 placing bane players.





Btw I've missed trolling u
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In general, yes it counts just as much. But when it comes to this particular topic (Catwoman vs. Bane) Max's opinion is obviously going to be more valued since he's ran that set like a gazillion times, offline, against the most successful Catwoman player. How do you still not understand the point?

And nobody said other opinions don't matter. It's just that clearly, logic dictates that the two guys who ran the set the most, who happen to be arguably the two best representatives of their characters will likely have a bigger say in this than someone who played Ra Helios online a few times and said "it might be 6-4." There's literally nothing disrespectful about it. I have no idea why some are feeling slighted.
 
16 Bit

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
I haven't said anything because I don't want to be that guy who reports scores but if people have this idea I cannot beat Biohazard they're wrong. I won a long set at UFGT and I am confident I could beat him in tournament. He got me at EVO and I'll hold that but it was close and I believe I could win a runback. He doesn't play that match as well as Max. Neither does any Bane I've played(and that's not a blow up on them).
 
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EMPR_MURK

Noob
coolwhip said:
In general, yes it counts just as much. But when it comes to this particular topic (Catwoman vs. Bane) Max's opinion is obviously going to be more valued since he's ran that set like a gazillion times, offline, against the most successful Catwoman player. How do you still not understand the point?

And nobody said other opinions don't matter. It's just that clearly, logic dictates that the two guys who ran the set the most, who happen to be arguably the two best representatives of their characters will likely have a bigger say in this than someone who played Ra Helios online a few times and said "it might be 6-4." There's literally nothing disrespectful about it. I have no idea why some are feeling slighted.
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Well max isn't the most successful bane so yea its very fair to say.
 
HomeLee1121

HomeLee1121

Noob
EMPR_MURK said:
They have played other times thn the clan battle so ha. Nice try lol
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Im guessing max and bit never play each other on a daily basis then since they're wrong in the MU apparantly......you know bit has already posted all his reasons as to why the MU is what it is. Ra helios did too but when bit or someone tries to counter argue all they get is "they aren't doing what im doing" like wtf.....to be honest just by reading all the responses has given me retinal aids.
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Noob
EMPR_MURK said:
Well max isn't the most successful bane so yea its very fair to say.
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Jesus Christ. OK, let's say he isn't the most successful Bane, you'll agree that his results are very close to BioHazard, right? I mean, that's not debatable. These are facts.

But, what is far more relevant to this conversation is Max is the only top Bane player with extensive experience in the Catwoman match-up. He plays the most successful Catwoman player hundreds of times offline every week. Hell, he's probably the only one running that match at a high level offline. That counts for more than Biohazard outplacing him at EVO when it comes TO THIS PARTICULAR CONVERSATION (ie the Catwoman-Bane match-up). It's honestly not complicated.
 
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EMPR_MURK

Noob
GGA 16 Bit said:
I haven't said anything because I don't want to be that guy who reports scores but if people have this idea I cannot beat Biohazard they're wrong. I won a long set at UFGT and I am confident I could beat him in tournament. He got me at EVO and I'll hold that but it was close and I believe I could win a runback. He doesn't play that match as well as Max. Neither does any Bane I've played(and that's not a blow up on them).
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Then it could be argued that ra helios thinks you're not playing it right too.
 
E

EMPR_MURK

Noob
HomeLee1121 said:
Im guessing max and bit never play each other on a daily basis then since they're wrong in the MU apparantly......you know bit has already posted all his reasons as to why the MU is what it is. Ra helios did too but when bit or someone tries to counter argue all they get is "they aren't doing what im doing" like wtf.....to be honest just by reading all the responses has given me retinal aids.
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Ok I like where you're going with this so ill say this. Pig said on twitch that he learned the batman mu from you and that no other batman player has beaten him right? Well it could be argued that maybe you know how pig plays considering the fact that you have played alot of times especially back when you guys were streaming I assume. With that being said then the same thing can be said about bit and max. Maybe max beats bit simply because of the bad mu with the added fact that they know how each other plays.
 
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