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Who is the biggest upplayer for each character?

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
You're not talking about anything, period. You're like two pages behind the actual conversation. The Nightwing matchup was an allegory. Bit might be the established BEST Catwoman without question based on credentials but that doesn't mean Ra Helios isn't necessarily better at this one matchup. I'm not saying that's the case, just that it's a possibility. Which is all Murk has been saying too.

Just because top 8 placer X says Y character beats Z, that doesn't mean that matchup is set in stone. You might take their words with less of a grain of salt than anyone else's because of what they've accomplished but too many people follow it blindly as if it's gospel instead of trying to evolve the matchup.

Murk doesn't have to explain why the matchup is 6-4 instead of 7-3/8-2. Ra Helios already explained it, FKJR, Biohazard, etc. can too. Murk doesn't play either character, he's just saying that the numbers ARE up for debate if top players can't agree, no matter how much more top one of the players might be than the others. This elitist attitude does nothing to evolve the scene at all.

I know that. The top 8 placer thing had nothing to do with my argument. It was more of a condescending joke because murks argument is literally just "top 8 placer said it"
 

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
Don't bother with people like them, your IQ will just drop.

Let them ramble, nobody is paying them any attention.
So difficult to ignore it when they're so damn loud. These garbage ass bane players need a reality check. They need to level the fuck up. It's fucking sad when someone who isn't even part of their character community is better than them with their character.
 

Johnny Based Cage

The Shangest of Tsungs
I know that. The top 8 placer thing had nothing to do with my argument. It was more of a condescending joke because murks argument is literally just "top 8 placer said it"
Nobody thinks Bane is bad, though. I don't even think ANYONE puts him outside of the Top 10 lol.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
So difficult to ignore it when they're so dumb loud. This garbage ass bane players need a reality check. They need to level the fuck up. It's fucking sad when someone who isn't even part of their character community is better than them with their character.
I think they already discredit themselves when they claim that 16bit losing to max all the time doesn't prove anything about the matchup.

It's not worth arguing with people who can't comprehend basic logic and fighting games.

And 2 posts above is your proof with random off-topic shit about Bane's tier placement lol.
 

coolwhip

Master
Naw that "I make top 8 so im right you're wrong" shit is for the birds. I haven't seen any reasons on why the mu is 7-3/8-2 besides 16bit getting his ass bodied by max. NOT ENOUGH or no where near it.
16 Bit "getting his ass bodied by Max" is still more proof for the match-up being 7-3 (though I agree results alone are not always an indicator) than anything to prove the match-up is 6-4 because we literally haven't seen ANYTHING that says it's 6-4. You disregard 16 Bit losing to Max every week yet your argument on why it's 6-4 is based on an online that Ra Helios played?

God, no wonder you thought you were a match away from top 8.
 

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
I think they already discredit themselves when they claim that 16bit losing to max all the time doesn't prove anything about the matchup.

It's not worth arguing with people who can't comprehend basic logic and fighting games.

And 2 posts above is your proof with random off-topic shit about Bane's tier placement lol.
I mean I usually do just ignore it but I woke up and saw all this cancerous shit between this thread and the Ra helios one. Like I basically ran out of fucks. Anyway I'm Gona go pay off the evil within so I'm going to leave the thread now.

Bane players are ass.
 

coolwhip

Master
And im pretty sure biohazard (top 8 placer) said it could be 6-4. Ijs
You still haven't said a single word about the match-up. All you say is "Ra Helios and BioHazard said X and Y." Fine, I respect both their opinions, but you do realize the majority (including other Catwoman and Bane players, two of which have literally ran thousands of offline sets) disagree, right? So I mean when you're in the minority, the burden of proof is on YOU. It's up to you to prove why the match-up isn't as bad as almost everyone else believes, and in that regard, you've yet to offer anything of substance. Now please, for fuck's sake try to understand my point.
 

IMakeItL00kC00L

Do not provoke a god
16 bit has been playing the catwoman-bane mu for over a year offline with one of/the best bane in the business. I think I'm gonna go with what he is saying about it more than anyone.
16 Bit "getting his ass bodied by Max" is still more proof for the match-up being 7-3 (though I agree results alone are not always an indicator) than anything to prove the match-up is 6-4 because we literally haven't seen ANYTHING that says it's 6-4. You disregard 16 Bit losing to Max every week yet your argument is why it's 6-4 is based on an online that Ra Helios played?

God, no wonder you thought you were a match away from top 8.
wasn't it determined he was a match away from top 16/32 not top 8?
 

Ra Helios

Omnipotent God-like Selina Kyle Player
You still haven't said a single word about the match-up. All you say is "Ra Helios and BioHazard said X and Y." Fine, I respect both their opinions, but you do realize the majority (including other Catwoman and Bane players, two of which have literally ran thousands of offline sets) disagree, right? So I mean when you're in the minority, the burden of proof is on YOU. It's up to you to prove why the match-up isn't as bad as almost everyone else believes, and in that regard, you've yet to offer anything of substance. Now please, for fuck's sake try to understand my point.
You pushing it stop it!!!!
 

EMPR_MURK

Warrior
16 Bit "getting his ass bodied by Max" is still more proof for the match-up being 7-3 (though I agree results alone are not always an indicator) than anything to prove the match-up is 6-4 because we literally haven't seen ANYTHING that says it's 6-4. You disregard 16 Bit losing to Max every week yet your argument on why it's 6-4 is based on an online that Ra Helios played?

God, no wonder you thought you were a match away from top 8.
Don't bother with people like them, your IQ will just drop.

Let them ramble, nobody is paying them any attention.
Please come to America and say all that and play me with that free joker in a ft10 mm. @Qwark28. Fuck you mean iq? Don't get ahead of yourself.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
From what I read:

"Bane bodies CW because Max bodies Bit. Fuck you if you don't believe"


Whereas Ra Helios is giving reasons to why the MU maybe not be as bad as people make it out to be in a respectfully manner, and even managed to convince a top Bane player that the MU may not be that bad.

Idk what the MU is but I'm riding with Ra on this one. If that makes me an "idiot" or "dumb", then so be it. At least I have a mind of my own.
 

EMPR_MURK

Warrior
From what I read:

"Bane bodies CW because Max bodies Bit. Fuck you if you don't believe"


Whereas Ra Helios is giving reasons to why the MU maybe not be as bad as people make it out to be in a respectfully manner, and even managed to convince a top Bane player that the MU may not be that bad.

Idk what the MU is but I'm riding with Ra on this one. If that makes me an "idiot" or "dumb", then so be it. At least I have a mind of my own.
Thats all I been trying to say bruh. Maybe "they" will listen to you. I don't see how some deal with this. Im ready to swing on somebody smh lol. Too many egos and arrogance.
 

coolwhip

Master
From what I read:

"Bane bodies CW because Max bodies Bit. Fuck you if you don't believe"


Whereas Ra Helios is giving reasons to why the MU maybe not be as bad as people make it out to be in a respectfully manner, and even managed to convince a top Bane player that the MU may not be that bad.

Idk what the MU is but I'm riding with Ra on this one. If that makes me an "idiot" or "dumb", then so be it. At least I have a mind of my own.
Dude, Max and 16 Bit have explained why the match-up is that bad countless times, and with far more in depth arguments.
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
From what I read:

"Bane bodies CW because Max bodies Bit. Fuck you if you don't believe"


Whereas Ra Helios is giving reasons to why the MU maybe not be as bad as people make it out to be in a respectfully manner, and even managed to convince a top Bane player that the MU may not be that bad.

Idk what the MU is but I'm riding with Ra on this one. If that makes me an "idiot" or "dumb", then so be it. At least I have a mind of my own.


I think the reasons this MU is bad have been covered enough but if not Bane out footsies her quite badly. If she has to go in she has to take a risk with dash, jump or something along those lines. His d+2, d+1 and grab out range her. We all know how tough some of the footsies scenarios in this game can be. This problem is worse than usual in this MU because for example even if she does get him to block a jump in he can armor out of most good followups so she has to play another layer of yomi after guessing right on the jump in in the first place.

Bane's knockdown game is absolutely brutal against her, she effectively has no wakeup attack. She often has to guess on his move then guess again even when right. She might backdash and get out of the way of b+2 but then have to block the second hit anyway and he's at advange or maybe she will block the b+2 and then have to guess on a tick throw. Whereas his wakeup is strong against her. It's true you can dash under MB Venom Uppercut, but he could wakeup with grab since you're respecting VU do a regular Venom Uppercut so you don't get any punish.

It's true standing 3 has two hits so it breaks armor but on read he can neutral jump and do a huge combo or backdash or do a faster normal depending on the scenario. In his scenario he said to do a 3,3 after a blocked DP if you read venom uppercut. If he reads that he can backdash and the 3,3 will whiff and he gets a punish(she should do just 3 into claws to make this safer). For her to beat his backdash she has to take a risk with b+3 or Cat Dash. This is a good example of the problem. He plays his game and even when you guess right you are stuck playing more guessing games where his KD game is ridicuously strong.

I don't know what to say about the punishing dashes with Cat Dash. I mean, it's true, but if they're doing 3 dashes as a pattern that's a blow up on them. Bane doesn't need to dash around like a maniac in this MU. He has dominate footsies. He is a defensive wall just standing there. Understanding of this is what separates Max from the rest, who I can beat. It's the same with all the Aquaman players except the super top guys like Theo and Cowboy. Any Bane can take 100% of my life on KD. I'm confident I can beat them anyway. Max's footsies shine in this mu.
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
From what I read:

"Bane bodies CW because Max bodies Bit. Fuck you if you don't believe"


Whereas Ra Helios is giving reasons to why the MU maybe not be as bad as people make it out to be in a respectfully manner, and even managed to convince a top Bane player that the MU may not be that bad.

Idk what the MU is but I'm riding with Ra on this one. If that makes me an "idiot" or "dumb", then so be it. At least I have a mind of my own.
This doesn't make sense. Nobody is saying "fuck you if you don't believe it." The match has been described in detail by Bit numerous times. You are choosing to listen to a person that lists superficial things about the MU and who does not have experience against a top Bane player.
 
From what I read:

"Bane bodies CW because Max bodies Bit. Fuck you if you don't believe"


Whereas Ra Helios is giving reasons to why the MU maybe not be as bad as people make it out to be in a respectfully manner, and even managed to convince a top Bane player that the MU may not be that bad.

Idk what the MU is but I'm riding with Ra on this one. If that makes me an "idiot" or "dumb", then so be it. At least I have a mind of my own.
I has nothing to do with having a mind of your own, 16 Bit and Max have explained it multiple times and they have evidence to back up their claims. (Sorry cowboy I have to use u on this one, no offense tho haha). Anyways, I remember cowboy said that shang beats liu kang 6 4, so I'm like (no way he loses to shang tsung). So we talk about it for a while and that didn't go anywhere really. So we got to play at MLG dallas, and I was able to win 3 0 vs his shang with my liu kang. Now he may or may not have had his mind changed after that, but at least there would be some kind of concrete evidence to back up my claim that liu goes 5-5 with shang tsung. Conclusion: Ra helios is going to have to go to a tournament and prove his case, otherwise he is just going to get ridden off because talk is talk, "actions speak louder than words".
 

EMPR_MURK

Warrior
I has nothing to do with having a mind of your own, 16 Bit and Max have explained it multiple times and they have evidence to back up their claims. (Sorry cowboy I have to use u on this one, no offense tho haha). Anyways, I remember cowboy said that shang beats liu kang 6 4, so I'm like (no way he loses to shang tsung). So we talk about it for a while and that didn't go anywhere really. So we got to play at MLG dallas, and I was able to win 3 0 vs his shang with my liu kang. Now he may or may not have had his mind changed after that, but at least there would be some kind of concrete evidence to back up my claim that liu goes 5-5 with shang tsung. Conclusion: Ra helios is going to have to go to a tournament and prove his case, otherwise he is just going to get ridden off because talk is talk, "actions speak louder than words".
Tournament matches don't decide a legitimate mu number imo. Ra helios going to a tournament won't define his point on a mu but it will determine his level as a player. I heard/read someone say that nobody besides 16bit plays a bane of max's level right? Well thn isn't it fair to say that no one has played a CW of helios's level? The whole debate that was going on was about a mu number being solidified by ONLY 16bit and max and that they're playing the mu at the highest level so no one else's opinion (ra helios) matters simply because of tournament placings in which lead to me using biohazard as an example because he disagrees that the mu is that bad and he is also a top 8 placing bane player but that got shut down simply because his bane isn't on max's level or any bane according to some. Idc about why it is this or that. My ONLY disagreement comes from another top bane player's opinion.
 
Tournament matches don't decide a legitimate mu number imo. Ra helios going to a tournament won't define his point on a mu but it will determine his level as a player. I heard/read someone say that nobody besides 16bit plays a bane of max's level right? Well thn isn't it fair to say that no one has played a CW of helios's level? The whole debate that was going on was about a mu number being solidified by ONLY 16bit and max and that they're playing the mu at the highest level so no one else's opinion (ra helios) matters simply because of tournament placings in which lead to me using biohazard as an example because he disagrees that the mu is that bad and he is also a top 8 placing bane player but that got shut down simply because his bane isn't on max's level or any bane according to some. Idc about why it is this or that. My ONLY disagreement comes from another top bane player's opinion.
tournament matches/ long sets play a big part in matchup discussions. You think daigo (best ryu period in sf4 series overall) would feel that ryu has problems vs dhalsim if he hadn't ran into Filipino champ, YHC mocha, and other top dhalsim players at American majors, Japanese majors, Topanga League, and etc.? Arguments aren't very credible without concrete evidence backing them up, that is just how things go with arguments. If a sports analyst says a team has (bad defense) but they don't provide any statistical evidence actually backing that up, what do you think people are going to think/ say about him?