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Match-Up Discussion - Scorpion Who do you think Scorpion beats right now?

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Well this is why we have these discussions because you made valid points as well.

Damage output is definitely a factor in MUs & Scorp overall hits harder than Subz. His 50/50 leads to no damage unless Scorp is cornered. Pressure isn't really his game, but when Subz in cornered what can he do? Jump...s3/F2, armor...F2/B4, clone...completely useless.
I can see that. I'll need to play the matchup more. It's regarded mostly as a 6-4 in the Sub forums and hellfire being the 5-5. I'v played it a bit from the grandmaster perspective, maybe I'll come to a different conclusion once I play from the Scorpion side of things.
 
I can see that. I'll need to play the matchup more. It's regarded mostly as a 6-4 in the Sub forums and hellfire being the 5-5. I'v played it a bit from the grandmaster perspective, maybe I'll come to a different conclusion once I play from the Scorpion side of things.
The swords having disjointed hitboxes hurts the clone. Against Hellfire the neutral game is a bit more interesting. He has an unblockable, fireball, and Aura. Feinting with FB cancel can bait out slides & unblockable keeps him on his toes. Subz just has more opportunity to work his clone around sweep distance & that's all he really needs.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
I have not read through this entire thread yet (but I will after this post) but as for my initial response to @JTB123 's OP:

I play about 75-80% hellfire. Even in the matchups that really are more favorable to play ninjutsu I tend to stick with hellfire because I want to see what I can learn about every matchup with HF because that is my favorite variation to play, so my response could be slightly skewed by the fact that most of my matchup experience is using hellfire but I will try to look at this from a HF/Ninj combined perspective since the thread is about Scorpion as a whole.

There are several matchups that come to mind that I am fairly sure that Scorpion does lose. Those characters in my personal opinion from playing my friends and others online are as follows: Takeda, Johnny Cage, Dvorah, Alien, Cassie.

There are a few that I think Scorpion "possibly" loses slightly to and those are: Sub Zero (GM is the only thing I am basing this on since it is essentially the only variation that is used), Liu Kang, Sonya.

I really don't believe I am saying this but the only matchups that I feel fairly certain that Scorpion actually wins are: Goro. That is literally the only one that I feel pretty confident that Scorpion definitely "Wins" 6-4.

I feel like Scorpion pretty much goes 5-5 with the rest of the cast. Scorpion is one of those characters where if you are playing against a good player regardless of their character the likely outcome is that the better player will come out on top. With the exception of the five characters that I listed above that I feel he almost certainly loses to, you could really make the argument that he goes 5-5 with literally every other character (assuming the best possible variation matchup for each character). You are not going to see many situations where you have literally no chance to win with scorp but in the same vein, you will also likely not be in many situations where your tools give you a big advantage where you don't have to be as "on point" so to speak.

Ninjutsu has his range, armor breaking, footsies, oki and lack of stamina reliance. Hellfire has his punishment, damage, fbrc mixups/pressure and flame aura/hellfire specials which do help greatly in certain matchups. Both characters lack something very critical to be able to deal with the best pressure characters in the game and that is a good standing armor move. In the context of this game and the risk/reward it brings to the table, EX takedown is simply not good enough of an armor move to demand enough respect. If you are trying to armor out of pressure and your are right, you get 15%. If you are wrong, you eat 30-40%. That is not a good trade no matter how you look at it.

I am certainly not set in stone on my opinions on any matchups and am open to reasons why I may be wrong about this but I really just don't think that Scorpion "beats" (6-4 or better) really anyone other than probably Goro. Scorp is "Mr. 5-5" in my opinion and I don't think that means he is weak or non-viable, it just means you are going to have to be on point with your matchup knowledge, punishes and reactions as well as your spacing and mixups if you want to be successful with him. You wont get many "freebies" in competitive/tournament play with this character but you pretty much have the potential to beat any opponent as well.

That is my thoughts on this.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
Hellfire always felt the toughest. That could be a losing MU, idk. There arent enough hellfires out there. Ninjutsu tho, na. Assassin has literally every tool you want for that match. That's a dead 5-5. They counter each other perfectly. RS does fine too but I'd much rather use Assassin. Mournful is a joke variation so idk lol
As a hellfire main I think that is a 5-5. You probably only would feel like it felt the toughest because you don't get to play against hellfire as much so some of the hellfire stuff may be harder for you to deal with just from a lack of experience/knowledge regarding what jails, when to poke, what to respect, etc. Also since hellfire punishes the hardest when you do make a mistake he does make you pay more-so than the other variations. I do believe it is still a 5-5 though IMO. I don't see anything that hellfire "does" specifically as a variation that would lead me to believe he would have an advantage against Kitana more so than his other variations..
 

JINAMOUNAINAI

He who is on fire is not troubled by the smoke
Tbh i dont know if scorpion(hf) has those amazing winning mu's
For example yes you can punish reptile's balls on reaction but that doesnt really change much, you dont have any fullscreen options yourself,both characters want to get in anw, and reptile also has an armored launcher making it even.
This was of course an example but the same situation applies with many mu's. I see hf having many 5/5 mu's, a few 5.5/4.5 ones, and also some 4/6 ones
Also only mileena low sai can be reacted with tp and punished
 
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Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
I don't think Ninjutsu beats grandmaster. If he keeps the right range, he can just Klone and keep walking you carefully. You don't have a reliable way to shatter the Klone since he has no zoning tools. A good sub wouldn't throw ice ball or throw/shatter Klone mid screen with the threat of tele, or do an unsafe Klone cancel in general so that's not even an issue for him really. It's pretty much a stalemate at midscreen, but Scorpion gets decimated in the corner. 6-4 Sub imo.
gm sub pretty much automatically takes a hit in the MU department vs any characters with moves that have disjointed hitboxes.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I don't think Ninjutsu beats grandmaster. If he keeps the right range, he can just Klone and keep walking you carefully. You don't have a reliable way to shatter the Klone since he has no zoning tools. A good sub wouldn't throw ice ball or throw/shatter Klone mid screen with the threat of tele, or do an unsafe Klone cancel in general so that's not even an issue for him really. It's pretty much a stalemate at midscreen, but Scorpion gets decimated in the corner. 6-4 Sub imo.
Scorpion swords are disjointed hitboxes, it can go through the clone and touch sub making it disappear, and there are ways to make f2 safe after sub blocking it from behind the clone.

Ninjutsu isn't a pressure variation, its a variation to bait buttons, apply mental pressure with his walk because it puts you inside his disjointed hitboxes range, your moves inside that range have to be unreactable and safe, otherwise the high necessity of moving and do something while inside that range can just kill any player from inside.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Just because Sub loses his advantage doesn't mean disadvantage. I'm gonna straight up need to play it more but I don't see this being a very slanted MU.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
The way people say very bad, it don't think is that bad either, it was 4-6 sub, now with the ammount of buffs it should be 5-5 or 6-4 scorpion at best.
Yeah I agree. I was a grandmaster main for over a year. Someone being able to go through the Klone isn't the end, especially when it doesn't go into pressure like D'Vorah.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Yeah I agree. I was a grandmaster main for over a year. Someone being able to go through the Klone isn't the end, especially when it doesn't go into pressure like D'Vorah.
True, i used to struggle a lot with Cryomancer before, mostly because scorpion couldn't stop subs advancing strings through hits that well, same could be said about Kotal, Erron and so on, and punish ice bomb, now he has a 7f punish, better buttons and better stagger, so his counter, offense and punish game has be raised, which it makes fighting annoyong characters like Kotal with -10 launchers more manageable.

Also his S3 goes over lows, in those strings that go high into low, when performed from distance are hit by s3 as they input the low, lol.
 

Ze Dingo

D4->F2 = unblockable. Ice Clone = unpunishable.
I've been thinking.

I think Scorpion beats Mileena very slightly. Something like 5.3-4.7.

Yeah, it's a slight advantage, but not enough to justify me saying 6-4.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
I've been thinking.

I think Scorpion beats Mileena very slightly. Something like 5.3-4.7.

Yeah, it's a slight advantage, but not enough to justify me saying 6-4.
I hear where you are coming from but imo anything that slight would likely still just fall under a "5-5".