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What Does MKX Benefit From Having A Block Button?

AnaboliChris

Master of Magnetism
I despise crossups. I see nothing "cool" about a glitchy mechanic that can cause you to be blocking in the opposite way that you think you are.
You do know that its not a glitch right? Cross up is a result of Hitbox vs. Hurtbox. As we all know, hitbox and hurtbox can be edited and modified. Games are play tested, and developers such as Capcom are well aware of crossups.

Take the video that I made and posted within this thread as an example. Some buttons do not cross up while others do. Thats simply due to Hitbox vs. Hurtbox.

It's really not that hard at all to block cross ups. In a game such as SF4, there are many options to get out of the cross ups [blocking, back dash, focus back dash, auto-correct dp, dwu, ect.].
 

Biggs

FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
I'm really surprised no one on here is talking about unblockables or 1 frame blockables, they are a very serious issue when it comes to back to block games.
 

AnaboliChris

Master of Magnetism
I'm really surprised no one on here is talking about unblockables or 1 frame blockables, they are a very serious issue when it comes to back to block games.
You should probably give examples because a lot of these setups, there are more than one options to get out of these "unblockables" or "hard-toblockables".
 

AnaboliChris

Master of Magnetism
I'll try to address some of these "unblockables" or "hard-toblockables," across multiple games:

SF4: Unblockables became a thing from programming error. These unblockables did not exist in the first version of SF4 but later became apparent from the later iterations. DWU mechanic in USF4 solved this issue.

Marvel: Yes it is possible to setup real unblockables with high and low due to assist calls. But thats why Marvel games has always been about neutral game. Especially in UMVC3 where there is ToDs. Dont put yourself into the situation and you wont see the unblockables. Even without the unblockables, the ToD's are much scarier. Most setups that are not on incoming means you're resetting them meaning more chance of them getting away [Alpha Counter, Snap Back assist or character, Super with invisibility, ect.]. A ToD is more preferred option. As far as on incoming such as Zero, again this falls into the neutral aspect. Fast games like Xrd and Marvel heavily rely on having very strong neutral game. This is the meta of Marvel. Theres also Firebrand who have unblockable. With or without a block button, firebrands unblockable will work since it breaks guard. Avoid this by killing FB and winning neutral game. Even then, people are now figuring out ways against Apologymans FB unblockable.

Basically dont put yourself into a situation where a possible unblockable can be set up. If you do end up in that situation then you lost neutral game and got outplayed.

Xrd: Eddie/Zato unblockable..which is about 1-2F to block it. Again neutral. But with the upcoming update, it should be a lot easier to block the unblockable. Same with Millia. In fact a lot of GG players are crying because their cheap techs wont be as effective.

If there is a setup that you dont know how to get out of, simply hit training mode, recreate the situation and find ways out of it because its there.

Anymore games?
 
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Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
That's actually one of the first things that came to mind. However, I feel that all that truly does is lower the skill ceiling to executing those moves.

Maybe doing those cancels would be extremely impractical (impossible?) with a back-to-block system so maybe that just be one reason as to how a block button benefits gameplay.
Totally changes the footsies game, imo. You can block without having to walk backwards. Allows for a more aggressive style of play all around. Not that this is necessarily a good thing or bad thing... it's just MK's style.

Also, after 2 years of injustice... a little tired of every single knockdown by almost every character leading to some ambiguous crossup lol. I'm not hating on it... I just prefer MK.
 
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BigMilk

Former Divine Power Abuser
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but it strengthens offense/ allows more reactive play. It also serves as a way to balance zoning/space control since MK projectiles don't cancel each other when they collide. They pass through each other when thrown.
 
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Epy69zSmallBoys

No respect for Kung Jin
The whole reason I didn't play IGAU was because it didn't have a block button, I can't stand trying to pull back while trying to block and walking backwards. LONG LIVE THE BLOCK BUTTON.
 
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STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
To have the block button forces safer play. In most other games, you can be risky if you feel like the opponent cannot respond, either by forcing a cross-up or a fake cross-up. I.E. Sonicfox's bat uppercut cross-ups, which otherwise are massively unsafe, are made viable due to the difficulty in blocking.

Instead, in MK, the pressure is put on the attacker to ensure their pressure is safe. You can't just elbow charge and hope it connects because it might cross-up. This is what I feel, at least, where as in other games the defender is paying for allowing their opponent in, in this one the attacker is forced to play in a way that makes for smarter approaches.

Keeps people honest, and opens up the window for a more diverse cast where in other games it might not be possible to do the same because it would be too taxing on directional blocks.
This is why I love the block button. Thank you Doombawkz
 
After seeing so many dumbass, ridiculous, super ambiguous setups in injustice with weird nonsense hitboxes, and an even weirder corner game, I'm so glad to get back to the block button, the next injustice should have one too lol..
I have never agreed with a thought more than this one in my life.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
To have the block button forces safer play. In most other games, you can be risky if you feel like the opponent cannot respond, either by forcing a cross-up or a fake cross-up. I.E. Sonicfox's bat uppercut cross-ups, which otherwise are massively unsafe, are made viable due to the difficulty in blocking.

Instead, in MK, the pressure is put on the attacker to ensure their pressure is safe. You can't just elbow charge and hope it connects because it might cross-up. This is what I feel, at least, where as in other games the defender is paying for allowing their opponent in, in this one the attacker is forced to play in a way that makes for smarter approaches.

Keeps people honest, and opens up the window for a more diverse cast where in other games it might not be possible to do the same because it would be too taxing on directional blocks.
This isn't really true. It's not true either in terms of how MK9's meta turned out, or in terms of Injustice; the vast majority of useful crossups in IGAU are safe/standard moves anyway.

F3 - Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Deathstroke, Batman, etc.
J2 - Batman, Grundy, Joker, Black Adam, Raven, etc.
J3 - Deathstroke, Sinestro, Aquaman, Green Lantern etc.
Body Splash - Doomsday
Teleport - Martian Manhunter
Flipkick - Nightwing

etc, etc.

Sure there may be a couple of moves which are highly unsafe and can cross up (like Superman's divepunch), but the overwhelming majority of typical cross-up tools in the game are plenty safe. Hardly anyone is thinking "Gee, should I cross this guy up? I might get bodied if it's blocked". Almost everyone is thinking "Should I make this cross up or not? Time to guess."

Likewise most the same kinds of moves in Injustice that people are cautious about in neutral/footsies because they aren't safe on block, weren't safe in MK9 either. I hear what you're saying, but I don't think it applies for the most part to either game.
 
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SaJa

FH_FenriR
You can dashblock and control master the distance. Good for creative combos, good for footsy moves. You have a bigger hitbox while blocking so you better take some risks sometimes leaving away the block button when down against projectiles, or against jumps to permit you to d1 it (AA). Risky, because you gotta be precise, but great to make it whiff and react faster. In MK games holding the block button like "turtle" isn't that good because you have bigger chip damage than igau and your opponent fuel his meter hiting on block (on hit you got the opposite situation) !

On MKX we can't dashblock anymore, but the "Run" replace it pretty well.
 
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GhosT

Noob
Less ambiguity. Some things become easier to defend. Mainly I think it sticks because it's something that defined the series.

As mentioned before it made a lot more sense in a dash cancel game now it feels like it's sorta grandfathered in but it's fine.

I used to feel like b2b was tedious but after adjusting to it I pretty much prefer it.

It's mk and it's what we gonna have really all I know or can say about it as to why it's still here
 

NurzBenny

Old Member
Didn't wanna delve into this cesspool of bickering and so-so information.

But I think one of the biggest things, if not biggest thing that separates the block button from B2B, is that it makes blocking an active commitment. Of course the technical aspects of a block button are what they are. No proximity option selects, not dealing with the crazy moves that were never designed to be react-able from a pure left right perspective, etc... These are things anyone who spends 5 minutes with the game can figure out.

The OP isn't asking the "how" it works, because I'm pretty sure he knows, we all do. He's asking the "Why" it works. The why it came to be. The why do we like it? The what makes it intrinsically better or worse than back to block. There's no answer as to what's better, it's a preference. There are good-great games with block buttons, b2b. There are terrible games with block buttons and b2b.

The how it came to be is simple, because Ed Boon and John Tobias made it so. Conceptually, MK isn't a defensive game. Blocking isn't "encouraged" to use an old MK1-3 literary parlance. It isn't something in relation to a street fighter or tekken or any other game with a B2B that you can do passively.

There are no circumstances where you can actively apply pressure in MK whilst simultaneously remaining safe by activating a block. There is no way to do this. (Following a fireball, homing missle, bomb trap is different) There are pressure strings that can be stopped anytime with the action of blocking, (Nomad Dash, Reptile Elbow dash, whatever the hell Skarlet does) but these are actions, that one has to chose and commit to, thusly stopping said pressure.

Whereas Street Fighter and tekken (to a degree) have coding built into them that select the proper option for you. There are inputs you can, well, input, that will either complete an offensive action for you if your opponent is doing an action that isn't blocking OR block for you, all at the same time. In Tekken not touching a button or directional at all in neutral will register a stand block for you. There is a way to buffer parries for certain characters but inputing down+back to neutral to down+back that will essentially low block (possibly high block) and or parry for you all at once, depending on your proximity and opponents offensive actions.

I've played literally dozens of fighting game franchises in my lifetime, I don't have a problem with any of these mechanics, because they are just that, mechanics. They help to make games unique. If you balance it right, it will be good. The end. Like someone has mentioned, Guilty Gear is a game with a mountains worth of offensive options, because it has a mountains worth of defensive options. Some more optimal than others for certain situations, but that's the way it should be.

In MK, and this might just be a personal thing, but the commitment is everything. What MK lacks in idk perhaps the more layered (bullshit) mixups, what it does have is the commitment, to offense or to defense. Outside of the occasional tricky high low, everything in MK is pretty react-able. There has never been anywhere even close to a batgirl bola 111 50/50 in MK. In some cases the fuzzy blocking window is so lenient that if you registered a high block of an overhead attack during block stun, that when the move became active you could appear crouching without actually getting hit.

In MK if you get hit, it's because YOU GOT HIT. It's because YOU as the player decided to not block at the moment you got hit. You either a) walked into or out of a sub optimal range or b) decided to go on the offense, and were punished for it, outspaced, slower active frames, poor recovery frames, etc. Blocks register within a frame, so theres is very little wiggle room in terms of "I swear I blocked that" "how do you even block that?" wailings you hear in other games. Blocks out-prioritize every button (switch stance?). You did it or you didn't. It's a decision, you either make or don't make. There are no marvel-esque "guesses" It is not an ambiguous glitch. It is not a set play massacre.

In the same vein, while we don't have in terms of defensive options some things other games do like mashing reversals out of blockstun, slashbacks, alpha counters, 2 frame command grabs, assists, tags etc
What we DO HAVE, is the counter poke. As highlighted before, THIS is what separates the winners and losers at the highest levels. Knowledge of strings, gaps, attack heights, opponents tendencies, frames and the whole nine are what goes into making these high level reads with a strategic down 1s, 3s, and 4s (maybe even uppercuts if you're feeling frisky). Since what MKII, if not further back, this is what could separate one from being able to take back control, give ones self some space, or die a blocking death. (Shock vs. Anyone in UMK3 or trilogy is a good example of this . . . or any high level MK9 tournament play)

To be able to counter poke, is to stop blocking, entirely. It is a decision, it is sacrificing the benefits and cons of one option for the benefits and cons of another. The overlap is minimal. It is the difference.

Lastly, and I'm surprised this hasn't been emphasized more, but in a game where chip damage can quickly turn into real damage, and a high level Johnny Cage can kill you without ever actually landing a hit, it doesn't make blocking the default right answer. It can become very fucking suboptimal in some situations, whereas in some fighting games b2b can cover alot of bases for you. It puts an emphasis on a very specific kind of spacing that can still leave you at alot of risk. It's the decision you have to make. It's THE DECISION.

. . . and not blocking leads to babalities. And babalities are awesome and all we should play for. "Get babied Bro" - @R.E.O.
 
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DreadKnight1

Beaten, by this mere man
A block button renders half of injustice style gimmicks like cross up overhead normals and instead means that players need to use low normals like d3 and d4 to open up players.
Also teleport attacks that hit cross up like scorpion and ermacs would be broken af, not to mention raiden's displacer making life even more difficult for the opponents
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Wasn't really just UFG leading the anti-Scorp stuff...a lot of players who got beat up by PL and REO pretty much were super vocal, too.

Scorpion really didn't change at all, other than losing safe options and losing his jump normals. Teleport wasn't really touched in a meaningful way other than that...it was the same teleport as before. Just now he had no way to even make it safe vs a large portion of the cast.

Anyway, block button changes a lot. Yes, cross-ups are gone in the traditional sense, but they still have a strong purpose, as you've all should have seen in MK9. There's also the benefit of not having proximity blocking, which does significantly alter how you play footsies in NRS games. It also allowed for things such as how MK9's throw mechanic worked (you could not throw an opponent in neutral crouch, but could throw them if they were crouch blocking).

It has its advantages and disadvantages. And NRS builds characters around that fact.
Yes, Scorpion was changed a lot. Making MB Teleport - is a HUGE change. What are you even talking about? I won't go into the details because that would completely de-rail the thread, but...nerfing Scorpion's damage output, his jump attacks, and his teleport completely changed the character.

Is today "Wild, unfounded statement" day or something?
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Yes, Scorpion was changed a lot. Making MB Teleport - is a HUGE change. What are you even talking about? I won't go into the details because that would completely de-rail the thread, but...nerfing Scorpion's damage output, his jump attacks, and his teleport completely changed the character.

Is today "Wild, unfounded statement" day or something?
What I mean by didn't change much was there was no real fundamental change in the character aside from weakened options. Like, he didn't really play any different...he was simply made less safe and less damaging and had worse normals than before. Lol, it's kinda confusing what I actually mean, but basically people complained about the character and, tbh, the things that made people mad about him were the things that he needed to actually be a viable character. He had weak movement, a weak ground game, took a lot of resources to do meaningful damage, and outside of MB teleport, really had no actual safety.
 

GhosT

Noob
Its not so much the existence of a skill ceiling as it is there is no reason to make it back-to-block.

Also back-to-block is a defensive centered movement, it causes you to scoot backwards in order to block because holding back creates that motion. Especially with all of the teleports, it would be nearly impossible to approach some characters.

Give a block button and you can give the same effect but allow for forward movement to become a viable option.
Umm if u are walking forward and a telepirt comes behind you wouldn't you essentially be blocking it already?
 
@Johnny San some benefits of the block button

1) no more auto blocking... you will no longer block things you did not intended to block

2) a more effective way to close distance to your opponent without punishing you to sacrifice some of the ground you already covered when you choose to stand gard.

3) a more skills based spacing game that forces you to really now the range an attack has at the time to walk back and put distance between you and your opponent do to the fact that there is not longer a system that auto protect you if you miscalculate the range of the attack

4) it allows more creativity when it comes to creating new specials move since now you can created special moves that attack the opponent from all angles with risking it been over power

5) it forces the players to have a deeper knowledge of block strings when searching for a window of opportunity to start their offence

6) no more button mashing bettween block strings

7) a more useful mind games between block strings.
benefics of the block button

1) no more auto blocking... you will no longer block things you did not intended to block

2) a more effective way to close distance to your opponent without punishing you to sacrifice some of the ground you already covered when you choose to stand gard.

3) a more skills based spacing game that forces you to really now the range an attack has at the time to walk back and put distance between you and your opponent do to the fact that there is not longer a system that auto protect you if you miscalculate the range of the attack

4) it allows more creativity when it comes to creating new specials move since now you can created special moves that attack the opponent from all angles with risking it been over power

5) it forces the players to have a deeper knowledge of block strings when searching for a window of opportunity to start their offence

6) no more button mashing bettween block strings

7) a more useful mind games between block strings.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
What I mean by didn't change much was there was no real fundamental change in the character aside from weakened options. Like, he didn't really play any different...he was simply made less safe and less damaging and had worse normals than before. Lol, it's kinda confusing what I actually mean, but basically people complained about the character and, tbh, the things that made people mad about him were the things that he needed to actually be a viable character. He had weak movement, a weak ground game, took a lot of resources to do meaningful damage, and outside of MB teleport, really had no actual safety.
So if they nerfed his mobility tool
Nerfed his jump-in attacks
and nerfed his damage output...

...How did the character NOT fundamentally change? I'm pretty sure the Scorpion mains(all two of them) had to play a hell of a lot differently post-patch than pre-patch, so yeah, Scorpion's gameplay did change.

So...yeah.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
This isn't really true. It's not true either in terms of how MK9's meta turned out, or in terms of Injustice; the vast majority of useful crossups in IGAU are safe/standard moves anyway.

F3 - Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Deathstroke, Batman, etc.
J2 - Batman, Grundy, Joker, Black Adam, Raven, etc.
J3 - Deathstroke, Sinestro, Aquaman, Green Lantern etc.
Body Splash - Doomsday
Teleport - Martian Manhunter
Flipkick - Nightwing

etc, etc.

Sure there may be a couple of moves which are highly unsafe and can cross up (like Superman's divepunch), but the overwhelming majority of typical cross-up tools in the game are plenty safe. Hardly anyone is thinking "Gee, should I cross this guy up? I might get bodied if it's blocked". Almost everyone is thinking "Should I make this cross up or not? Time to guess."

Likewise most the same kinds of moves in Injustice that people are cautious about in neutral/footsies because they aren't safe on block, weren't safe in MK9 either. I hear what you're saying, but I don't think it applies for the most part to either game.
While I do agree, let me go ahead put something in there...

I said in the beginning most OTHER games are a bit more loose about cross-ups being a bit more unsafe in trade off for b2b, and Sonicfox's bat uppers just seemed like the most obvious and relevant example. Thats all.

As far as the rest goes, I think the list is more like this if we are being honest...

F3 - Wonder Woman, Flash, Batman, etc.
J2 - Batman
J3 - Sinestro, Aquaman, etc.
Teleport - Martian Manhunter

but thats just me counting more along the more recent top 8s in majors where people like Raven and GL and the like aren't often seen, and most DD's don't abuse body splash so much. Banes, maybe.

The rest of it, I just see it that way that MK pressure is more focused on the attacker's play than the defender's blocking, rather than most games where the defender is on the press. Also I mean there are some things that are "I could get screwed if this is blocked" as well, but not every character has that problem. Those characters are usually in the top 6.


Umm if u are walking forward and a telepirt comes behind you wouldn't you essentially be blocking it already?
Yeah, if a spear doesn't hit you in the face first.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
So if they nerfed his mobility tool
Nerfed his jump-in attacks
and nerfed his damage output...

...How did the character NOT fundamentally change? I'm pretty sure the Scorpion mains(all two of them) had to play a hell of a lot differently post-patch than pre-patch, so yeah, Scorpion's gameplay did change.

So...yeah.
Like I said, it's really weird what I actually meant lol. I'm trying to point out that the main reasons Scorp went from really good to really bad had zero to do with the main thing everyone complained about (teleport not fitting the blocking scheme). It still worked in most of the same ways that it did pre-patch. That part never changed, and people got used to having to deal with it.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Like I said, it's really weird what I actually meant lol. I'm trying to point out that the main reasons Scorp went from really good to really bad had zero to do with the main thing everyone complained about (teleport not fitting the blocking scheme). It still worked in most of the same ways that it did pre-patch. That part never changed, and people got used to having to deal with it.
"Breaks the rules of the game."

What an awful talking point.