USF4 Console balance patch notes released

[TheSpore]

You don't get how input buffer works?

It doesn't remove links, it just widens their window. It wouldn't prevent ALL links from existing, it would prevent 1 frame links from existing. All links would automatically be +1 frame in terms of execution, without changing anything related to hit/block advantage.

It wouldn't affect high level play at all, since they already do their links consistently, and it would allow everyone else to focus on the game's meta, rather than focus on things like latency and missed inputs.

And yes, if you think Capcom is right to make things difficult in execution in order to balance, that is no different from saying Kabal is balanced out by his high execution. That's the same reasoning behind it.

And dam straight they should make a simple, small change to make it more playable for me and thousands of other players. It's not just me. Believe it or not, MOST people can't do 1 frame links consistently (10 times in a row).

I'm not going to insult you or am I going to say you are flat out wrong. Kabal is not a good example, his high execution and high awards is due to the fact that he was largely ignored when other characters were being nerfed and buffed. NRS' IGAU and MK9 are largely criticized due to the inputs being so simplistic to the point where accidental inputs tend to come out way more frequently than in a Capcom Games (in this case SF4). SF has a much more precise input system that allows one to be more exact. It doesn't revolve around the IGAU and MK9 dial a combo system, but rather requires you to understand and have a feel for a move when you input it. In order to do a combo in SF you have to understand the timing it takes to connect the next attack into a combo whereas NRS titles its simply press 112 and the full string is executed typically even when the first hit doesn't even connect. This is largerly why our community is criticized by teh Capcom folks for playing a to simple of a game. Its honestly amazing how night and day the two input systems are and do not truly compare at all. IGAU and MK9 compare more with Blazblue than SF ever will. I am a bit more torn to say that NRS could learn a thing or two from that Blazblue's features in their future titles.

What you are requesting is for a full change in mechanics that could drastically affect the game's overall balance and performance. If you are mainly an online player, so be it, then you have utilize the lag feature in practice to at least get a better feel for the lag. This feature should be fullly carried over into NRS games since they suffer far more from lag than SF ever does.

 

[Tony at Home]

You still don't understand that it would make things that are not supposed to be easy easier.

What reason is there for making something difficult that is not related to how good the move is? Especially given at the highest level, it may make a difference of a pro player dropping it 1 out of 10 times instead of 1 out of 9 times.

If a combo is too strong, it should be balanced by toning it down, not making it hard to do. If there are things that are too good if they can be executed efficiently, then they shouldn't be that good in the first place. 1 frame links should just be eliminated, and any ill consequence of this (such as a pro being not dropping it 1 out of every 10 times) should be dealt with by balancing the move, not by making it harder to do.

 

[Tony at Home]

What you are requesting is for a full change in mechanics that could drastically affect the game's overall balance and performance. If you are mainly an online player, so be it, then you have utilize the lag feature in practice to at least get a better feel for the lag. This feature should be fullly carried over into NRS games since they suffer far more from lag than SF ever does.

What move would be too good if it was a 2 frame link instead of a 1 frame link?

This is basically a built-in plink. And if plinking doesn't break the game, why does this?

I keep being told that this would affect the balance of the game, yet pro's can already do 1 frame links quite consistently- so the argument I'm just balancing the game based on casuals is hypocritical, given the insistence on 1 frame links affects casuals much more than pros.

 

[Konqrr]

Where's the patches for the new characters?

Why would there be patches for new characters? Lol

 

[Skkra]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the current Street Fighter 4 input system. It should absolutely NOT be adjusted whatsoever to account for online play. I play a TON of people online, in fact, who seem to have zero problem executing very high-difficult combos with near 100% consistency. A fighting game in particular should NEVER be adjusted to accommodate online play.

I love SF4, but I'm at a completely casual level. Nonetheless, I can perform several character's 1-frame link combos with 80-90% consistency when I'm playing simply by feeling out the timing. I also do not use plinking. I hit the 1 frame.

Don't blame the game for your lack of ability to perform a link or combo. If you really hate it, play another game. I find nothing wrong with Street Fighter's combo system.

 

[funkdoc]

lol people still unironically quote sirlin in 2014

his whole "top players don't drop combos" argument is complete and utter bullshit fyi. dropped 1f links happen quite a bit with tournament pressure, and execution affects which characters people play in the first place.

why do you think even kabal was never as dominant as meta knight? on paper he should have been almost as bad, but there were never 6 kabals in a major top 8. execution has a real effect on the "meta" (hate this word but w/e), plain and simple

also the idea that strings make NRS games scrubbier is hilarious given that every 3D fighter uses that same system...

 

[Tony at Home]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the current Street Fighter 4 input system. It should absolutely NOT be adjusted whatsoever to account for online play. I play a TON of people online, in fact, who seem to have zero problem executing very high-difficult combos with near 100% consistency.

If you see people doing combos with 100% consistency, then there's no issue with them being done consistntly.

Then what's the problem with a built-in plink-buffer?

That's basically what it is, a built-in plink. Nothing more. It would take you from doing 80-90% consistency to 85% - 95% or higher, just because there's 1 frame of buffer. How is that bad?

** And it's not just for online play, or because of online play, it's because 1 frame links are a bad idea in general, and it should be a minimum of 2 frames for any link **

 

[Tony at Home]

lol people still unironically quote sirlin in 2014

Ummm, yeah, because he's not a well-respected authority on fighting game balance?

When did this change? When he was critical of SFIV's input system? This seems to be the case anyway, when you point out something SFIV does wrong, you lose credibility automatically.

 

[TheSpore]

What move would be too good if it was a 2 frame link instead of a 1 frame link?

This is basically a built-in plink. And if plinking doesn't break the game, why does this?

I keep being told that this would affect the balance of the game, yet pro's can already do 1 frame links quite consistently- so the argument I'm just balancing the game based on casuals is hypocritical, given the insistence on 1 frame links affects casuals much more than pros.

The thing here is you are not seeing the overall bigger picture. By implementing a buffer, you may be making your lower damage combos easier to perform, but you are essentially making it easier for other characters' higher damage 1 frame combos easier. This skews the balance to a degree that can hurt the game. The game's system is designed in a way for the player to achieve high reward for being more skillful, unlike the NRS counterparts that require something as damaging as a super or x-ray to only be the use of pressing two buttons.

 

[Tony at Home]

The thing here is you are not seeing the overall bigger picture. By implementing a buffer, you may be making your lower damage combos easier to perform, but you are essentially making it easier for other characters' higher damage 1 frame combos easier. This skews the balance to a degree that can hurt the game. The game's system is designed in a way for the player to achieve high reward for being more skillful, unlike the NRS counterparts that require something as damaging as a super or x-ray to only be the use of pressing two buttons.

But pro's who do the 1 frame links can do them about 9 out of 10 times. So obviously theres not an issue with the combo's being so good that they need to be dropped often to limit their effectiveness, or else there would be MAJOR issues in high level play, given they are done so consistently.

You bring up the example of NRS making x-ray's and supers easy to do, which is a perfect example. Making strong moves easy to do does not upset the balance. X-rays and supers aren't too good just because you can do them by clicking two triggers on your controller.

 

[MagnetoHalfway]

Skkra's thoughts...



9. Rose got NOTHING but buffs, she’s probably going to be super good now, wouldn’t be surprised to see a new more high level Rose players, or FilipinoMan and Luffy wrecking.





SUPER HYPE FOR THIS NOW! Lots of good changes overall.

I have mained Rose since Vanilla, and honestly man I wish she got nothing but Buffs, but the reality is she received a critical Nerf to her already Shitty wake up game, which was they took out the Throw Invincibility on her EX Soul Spiral smfh, which I will never understand why they felt the need to make her shitty wake up game even worse smh. They also added more frames to Ultra 2 smh, which was a nerf, so I'll be strictly Ultra 1 now. But since I been playing her day 1 Im used to going straight Ultra 1. Im looking forward to this game, but some of the Buffs/Nerfs on the different characters has left me scratching my head.

 

[TheSpore]

But pro's who do the 1 frame links can do them about 9 out of 10 times. So obviously theres not an issue with the combo's being so good that they need to be dropped often to limit their effectiveness, or else there would be MAJOR issues in high level play, given they are done so consistently.

Your still missing the point, the system is designed for the player to become more skillful over time rather than handing over the ability for anyone to do it. 1 frame links were put there for the purpose requiring skill to perform. Yes players can be very adept to performing them more and more consistently, but what you want is the allowance making them easier for your sake and your sake alone, when no one else is complaining and requesting such a thing.

You bring up the example of NRS making x-ray's and supers easy to do, which is a perfect example. Making strong moves easy to do does not upset the balance. X-rays and supers aren't too good just because you can do them by clicking two triggers on your controller.

NRS titles are designed to give the casual player the ability to feel empowered and have a good time by making higher damaging attacks easier for them, yet at the same time allowing enough depth for the non-casual player who wants to take the game further. In other words its a FG that should be your starting point when trying to become more competitive.

 

[Qwark28]

Do you know just how large a window 1 extra frame is?

 

[funkdoc]

Ummm, yeah, because he's not a well-respected authority on fighting game balance?
.

actually he's a total joke to experienced players, and has been for years

had nothing to do with SF4, either. there was his "arcade perfect" PS2 port of super turbo that was used for evo then turned out to have an extra 4 frames of input lag compared to the arcade, coupled with his denials when called out on this. there was the complete failure of HD remix, which resulted from him ignoring his testers' suggestions because it was HIS game, dagnabbit! and his handling of criticism and other things too numerous to mention here...

there is a very good reason only board gamers give a crap about him anymore

 

[REDRUM]

When's SF 5 ?

 

[TheSpore]

When's SF 5 ?

Hey When's Mahvel

 

[Eddy Wang]

Do you know just how large a window 1 extra frame is?

So large that in Ultra i won't ever drop another Ibuki's cr.lk to cr.lp link ever again.

Its no surprise that luthor have a problem wih 1frame links, there is an Angolan sf player who hates this system as well, but he doesn't complain, he just play more fundamental based characters over high level execution characters (like Ryu, Ken, Honda, Blanka ETC)

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

The decrease in Sakura's distance after a back throw is a nice change.

Sucks that Ken U1 and cr.MK buffs are being reverted but walkspeed increase is still good.

There also was nothing said regarding Ryu EX Shoryu FADC into U2. Will it still give full animation? Hopefully it does.

 

[Tony at Home]

Do you know just how large a window 1 extra frame is?

Yes

An extra 1 frame window is the equivalent to the extra frame afforded to you when you plink.

So if you're saying an extra 1 frame window shouldn't be there, you're also saying plinking shouldn't either. Because that's basically what this is, a guaranteed plink.

 

[THTB]

Gouken got a few buffs he needed. But it still feels like they held back on how far they could go with them. st.LK buff is useful and useless at the same time because the move is so slow to begin with. EX tatsu buff is godly for the sole purpose that Gouken's defense up close was BOOTY BUTT CHEEKS. I mean, he would get mauled up close because he had nothing to really do that was remotely reliable. Now all of a sudden 5f, invincible, 200dmg/200stn reversal option. Still, they could've tweaked his other tatsus and given them the vacuum effect buff EX tatsu had gotten. 3f cr.LP is good too, since it gives him a 3f normal to use defensively, and also opens up potential hitconfirms (Gouken players who have played Ultra builds with the change say the links are easy). LP palm buff helps with dealing with focus a little bit better, but I doubt it's all that noticeable. His changes are definitely positive and help, but aside from EX tatsu, pretty much they all just are lackluster still.

On a side note, lol at how many changes on some characters were reverted.

Good shit to giving Oni hard knockdowns on first hit DPs if FADC'd. His DP FADC was the worst in the game.

 

[Tony at Home]

Your still missing the point, the system is designed for the player to become more skillful over time rather than handing over the ability for anyone to do it. 1 frame links were put there for the purpose requiring skill to perform. Yes players can be very adept to performing them more and more consistently, but what you want is the allowance making them easier for your sake and your sake alone, when no one else is complaining and requesting such a thing.


NRS titles are designed to give the casual player the ability to feel empowered and have a good time by making higher damaging attacks easier for them, yet at the same time allowing enough depth for the non-casual player who wants to take the game further. In other words its a FG that should be your starting point when trying to become more competitive.

And once again, how does a 1 frame input buffer window take away any of this, but plinking does not? They're the same thing. If you miss your input by 1 early frame, it comes out the next frame.

 

[TheSpore]

And once again, how does a 1 frame input buffer window take away any of this, but plinking does not? They're the same thing. If you miss your input by 1 early frame, it comes out the next frame.

One requires physical execution the other requires the game making the correction for you. One is subject to failure the other will never fail.

 

[Tony at Home]

One requires physical execution the other requires the game making the correction for you. One is subject to failure the other will never fail.

One requires you buy an expensive stick, with which, it's easy as breathing.

The other is just a b* to do when you are playing on pad.

 

[TheSpore]

One requires you buy an expensive stick, with which, it's easy as breathing.

The other is just a b* to do when you are playing on pad.

Well unfortunately the game was mostly designed with the fightstick in mind, which you can either buy a stick and learn to use or you can just stick to what you have. I play on a pad as well, and plinking is still possible on a pad. Again you are requesting the removal of something that takes skill to use and wanting it easier.

The argument you just made was, well I shouldn't need a half stack amp to play guitar in a band, because I have a small combo practice amp.

 

[Qwark28]

Can we please drop the whole "I can't do it, therefore it should be easier" talk?