This character needs buffs

[Lyuben]

CBA to read all this thread but I would like the following changes to Cyber Sub to make him full:

Ice bombs working properly and freezing every time.

Giving his Ice bombs another command or fixing it somehow so you can dash and 332 or 34

Better d1,d3,d4. In another thread I mentioned how bad his pokes are. Pokes, uppercuts and sweeps are fundamental to the game of all characters, why should one be so limited.

Goddamn it, fix how broken he gets. I hate seeing his brain, muscles and all the crap after he gets lightly tapped. Look at Cyrax and Sektor, at worst a bit of SKIN is exposed. For this guy his GODDAMN BRAIN is seen.

 

[CitizenSnips]

...Wat

No dude, the second time I EVER played you was in a KotH. You'd been picking Cyber Subs all night, so just to be cheeky, I thought I'd go for a Cyber Subs mirror. You wound up going to Reptile, at which point I thought "Welp, this isn't going to end well". You shut me down in that match pretty soundly. In fact, I can only remember playing you with Cyber Subs two other times, so I don't know what to tell you there. Either you're remembering me wrong or you're thinking of someone else.

I'm 2-0 with your Reptile with Subs, by the way. The first time we had that match was the first time I played you, and I barely took that one. The second one was quite a bit more convincing on my part, which I attribute to having more experience with Reptile by then. I played you once in KotH (I think I'd just managed to dethrone Lion for a little while). I know it was in the couple of weeks leading up to Evo, because I can remember making a crack about how you'd need to learn how to stop him before you left. I don't know how you missed that, really.

You can blow someone up for how they play, by the way, which is what I'm referring to. I've seen you play in KotH more often than I've actually played you (this tends to be the trend when Milky is king), and that's just something I've noticed. I specified because I didn't want to come across as that dick who tells you that you're bad at the game, since I was just giving constructive criticism.

...And not to blow up Judgement Blade, but I don't know how you have a harder time with his Cyber Subs. He has a good Smoke and a pretty good Cage, but I'd state for the record that my Cyber Subs trumps his. Nothing against him, by any means.

I really do not recall that second match I had with your Sub. But I'll take your word for it because honestly I do tend to fight Sub too recklessly. Now I play a lot better against him and as long as I am paying attention I typically beat Subs now but again, I do not remember our second match. And we decided to go to EVO about a week before it actually happened, so there were no "few weeks before," lol.

And you're right now I remember the first time I fought your CSZ, I was mixing it up with your Sub Zero my mistake. And I admit I don't D4 cancel often online because of lag. I don't know how some players are so proficient online with D4 canceling and 3 elbow dashes, it is just something I can not do on a consistent enough basis to try online. I did do it often at EVO though because of how easy it is to do, but again, online I just don't feel comfortable to do it on command.

And I still think Judgement Blade's CSZ is better than yours. Maybe not by a much, but I really do despise fighting him. His rushdowns are very good and when he's on his game, I have a hell of a time beating him. But then again I haven't fought him too many times either. He might just be better at fighting me or something, I don't really pay attention during KOTH so I can't really compare you guys against people in general, only against me.

I don't mind you criticizing me, I am fully aware of my faults. I do tend to get a bit jump happy and aggressive which is the reason why I have trouble against good Sub players. And again, I avoid some very useful techniques online because I am afraid of lag messing it up. I'll probably try to do them more often online and if I end up failing miserably, so be it.

 

[Error]

Cyber-Sub Zero definitely needs this buff. Imagine the range on his pokes!

 

[CitizenSnips]

Cyber-Sub Zero definitely needs this buff. Imagine the range on his pokes!

Include a hat and we can officially toss him into hat tier.

 

[The_Riddler]

The Cyber Sub forum seeing far too much activity as of late. Let's all stop posting and we can forget he exists again, please. Thanks.

 

[Niflheim]

The Cyber Sub forum seeing far too much activity as of late. Let's all stop posting and we can forget he exists again, please. Thanks.

I agree. I liked it when CSZ was unknown, so I didn't have to fight a bunch of CSZ mirror matches and have people who know how to fight against him.

 

[PPJ]

fix his negative edge and his horrible d+4 and he should be fine...

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I feel so helpless against good CBZ's. it kinda feels like being trapped in the corner by vanilla sub, but ALL OVER THE SCREEN AT 200MPH

Holy shit, that is the perfect explanation

 

[Altaire]

I really do not recall that second match I had with your Sub. But I'll take your word for it because honestly I do tend to fight Sub too recklessly. Now I play a lot better against him and as long as I am paying attention I typically beat Subs now but again, I do not remember our second match. And we decided to go to EVO about a week before it actually happened, so there were no "few weeks before," lol.

And you're right now I remember the first time I fought your CSZ, I was mixing it up with your Sub Zero my mistake. And I admit I don't D4 cancel often online because of lag. I don't know how some players are so proficient online with D4 canceling and 3 elbow dashes, it is just something I can not do on a consistent enough basis to try online. I did do it often at EVO though because of how easy it is to do, but again, online I just don't feel comfortable to do it on command.

And I still think Judgement Blade's CSZ is better than yours. Maybe not by a much, but I really do despise fighting him. His rushdowns are very good and when he's on his game, I have a hell of a time beating him. But then again I haven't fought him too many times either. He might just be better at fighting me or something, I don't really pay attention during KOTH so I can't really compare you guys against people in general, only against me.

I don't mind you criticizing me, I am fully aware of my faults. I do tend to get a bit jump happy and aggressive which is the reason why I have trouble against good Sub players. And again, I avoid some very useful techniques online because I am afraid of lag messing it up. I'll probably try to do them more often online and if I end up failing miserably, so be it.

Yes, but to be fair, you've played my Cyber Subs like... Two or three times, to my recollection. One of them was back when I couldn't use him for shit, so that one is more or less irrelevant.

Like I said, it was in the weeks leading up to Evo, I don't know specifically when. I just know it was sometime after you all said you were going, because that's why I took a jab at you about the Sub Zero matchup. That's just how I know when it took place.

 

[The_Riddler]

I think the time period after an ice ball freeze during which you cannot throw a bomb should be reduced by just a few frames. I say this only because sometimes the mid bomb after and u.4 combo ender will not come out (the animation happens but no bomb). I understand the reasoning for why that "no bomb" window is there, but taking a frame or 2 off of it shouldn't be that big of a deal. It would only make things a little bit more consistent.

 

[Altaire]

I think the time period after an ice ball freeze during which you cannot throw a bomb should be reduced by just a few frames. I say this only because sometimes the mid bomb after and u.4 combo ender will not come out (the animation happens but no bomb). I understand the reasoning for why that "no bomb" window is there, but taking a frame or 2 off of it shouldn't be that big of a deal. It would only make things a little bit more consistent.

Well, the only real tweaks I'd like to see to Cyber Subs would be ways to diversify him, rather than buff him. I'd like to see him be a LITTLE more space control-oriented, since most of the rushdown characters in this game aren't (Kung Lao is when he's zoning with queer low hat spam, but that's about the only time). I feel like that'd set him apart without making him necessarily broken.

Still, if Cyber Subs never gets another buff for as long as this game is out, I'm okay with that. He's a perfectly solid character, and he's still easily top ten as far as I'm concerned.

 

[The_Riddler]

Well, the only real tweaks I'd like to see to Cyber Subs would be ways to diversify him, rather than buff him. I'd like to see him be a LITTLE more space control-oriented, since most of the rushdown characters in this game aren't (Kung Lao is when he's zoning with queer low hat spam, but that's about the only time). I feel like that'd set him apart without making him necessarily broken.

Still, if Cyber Subs never gets another buff for as long as this game is out, I'm okay with that. He's a perfectly solid character, and he's still easily top ten as far as I'm concerned.

Have you ever had the mid bomb whiff after u.4? It's very annoying, and I'm not exactly sure that it happens for the reason I initially thought. It seems very very wonky, when you can throw bombs and not throw bombs in relation to an ice ball freeze, an EX parry, or a bomb freeze. It would be beneficial to know what exactly the properties are.

 

[Ghost stalker]

I agree. I liked it when CSZ was unknown, so I didn't have to fight a bunch of CSZ mirror matches and have people who know how to fight against him.

So much this, It's like one day in the forum there was nobody, and the next day there was.

On topic: I love all the people who are saying he does not need buffs, then suggesting how his bombs, pokes and button mapping need work.

 

[xTac]

2,1 is not a frame trap on block.

True. 2 has 15 frame startup(believe it or not) and 21 is 0 on block.

+frames on b+1 would be nice for two reasons

It is already +1 on block.

Bombs always freezing would be nice, but it would probably lead to some ridiculous traps and would eventually get nerfed back.

Yes, however, there are a couple situations where the bomb does not freeze and i think it should:
1-Bomb will not freeze if deployed while the opponent is performing a whiffed string or normal
2-Bomb will not freeze if deployed while the opponent is performing any special move

Besides that, i think any other change would lead to setups/traps.

CSZ' teleport has a cooldown and seems to have more vulnerable frames on startup. It's pretty bad.

Not only a cooldown but he is vulnerable during startup. Even the EX version has 10 frames of vulnerability which he can be hit out, so its not even a reliable wakeup. Im not saying i agree with a buff, just providing the info.

He has a psuedo bomb trap off of u+4 anti-air, since it causes an untechable knockdown,

You can end combos with U4...

Against the majority of the roster, you can just keep pressuring with 2 1

Everybody on the roster can interupt this with D1 or D3. Just saying. I agree with everything else u said though.

Fix the Negative Edge as it gives him problems.

Agreed.

Make Ice Bombs not roll for so long.

Nobody would ever get out of the corner.

Have you ever had the mid bomb whiff after u.4? It's very annoying, and I'm not exactly sure that it happens for the reason I initially thought. It seems very very wonky,

ˆthis... No idea why it happens. Stupid bug.

On topic: I love all the people who are saying he does not need buffs, then suggesting how his bombs, pokes and button mapping need work.

ˆthis x2

 

[Ether]

xTac, I agree with that entire post and I did state that you could combo into u+4 for the untechable knockdown <_<

Also, thanks for the frame info. Sometimes off of jump punch, I'll b+1 for a frame trap to open them up for a 2,1. This is a gimmick, however, and this easily gets stuffed by d+1, d+3 or any other quick poke.

It's the SF player in me that wishes people HAD to be more respectful of block pressure in this game. Every time I tick throw someone off of 2 series, I feel its just them not knowing the matchup.

I honestly feel like CSZ's mixups are pretty gimmicky and get blown up by random jumping or d+1/d+3.

 

[PANDEMlC]

cyber only needs his bomb set to a different motion or button. The problem comes when you use his kicks when you rush down, which are his best tools. He'd be amazing if the bomb didn't come out.

 

[xZEPPELIx]

cyber only needs his bomb set to a different motion or button. The problem comes when you use his kicks when you rush down, which are his best tools. He'd be amazing if the bomb didn't come out.

I do agree with this but at the same time you can work around this by pressing back before doing the kicks. It cancels the bomb.

CSZ doesnt need a fucking buff. Not every character is ment to be like Kung Lao.

 

[xTac]

xTac, I agree with that entire post and I did state that you could combo into u+4 for the untechable knockdown <_<.

I guess i read your message too fast and missed that.

I honestly feel like CSZ's mixups are pretty gimmicky and get blown up by random jumping or d+1/d+3.

Ppl will probably jump on my back for this, but i partially agree here. The reason why i say this is because CSZ FASTEST combo-starting move is his standing 1, which has 11 frames startup.

Pretty shitty for a so called "rushdown" character. Put that together with the fact that you cant rushdown with 33 or 34 consistently without shitting a damn bomb plus you cant start anything from low pokes you are left with JP, 11 and 21 to get the high damage stuff going.

Once you hit are they fucked? Yes, damage is good. Once you get in are they fucked? No. He is not JC, and if blocked, you will get interrupted out of all his normals by any character with d1,d3 if you try to follow up. The only +1 move/string is B1. Besides that everything else leaves you at 0 or - according to the data i get here.

When i look at CSZ frame data all i think is that he is the opposite of reptile: Dash makes CSZ look fast, but hes actually pretty slow.

Also, thanks for the frame info.

NP. Something else that i havent seen posted is that throw is guaranteed if you hit 1,1,1.
Nothing amazing, but it is worth mentioning.

 

[Jelan]

A great "buff" would be to make the closebomb fb3 and midbomb into bf3. I dropped him, because of those.

 

[Piggy]

I still think he needs a teleport increase. Altaire knows exactly what I mean too after hitting me across the stage even though I was already apart. His teleport when he comes apart is too slow.

Sent from my phizzone

 

[Ether]

Also, guys, KL has the best parry, not CSZ.

 

[Massive Kano]

Why does KL have better everything than Cyber Subby?

Because KL is fucking stupid. Bite your tongue for even suggesting NRS make anybody into a new KL.

 

[Alice]

Nearly from the start i main CSZ, he is so badass. It's just that you see what your opponent doing and there is always a way to break the defense up. He can do a bit of everything makes him top tier, but fair too. If you get predicateble you lose, good that each special moves and the ex versions have different abilities, so you know each thing like juggles, bomb traps, parrys, dive kicks (and moving with them around), high low mixups and know when you need to use bars can make you a beast like no other. He need no buffs at all.

 

[BajanKing]

This thread is an EPIC FUCKING FAIL! CSZ is one of the best characters in the game and you think he needs buffs?!! lmao unbelievable! Gamers these days -__-

 

[Ether]

Bite your tongue for even suggesting NRS make anybody into a new KL.

Didn't suggest that.

CSZ is one of the best characters in the game

no