This character needs buffs

[The_Riddler]

Cyber Sub's only real hard matchups are with Kitana, Raiden and Cage, none of which can't be managed. He has all the tools to handle any other situation.

I'd just like to throw in Kung Lao as his hardest match-up. Also, Kenshi is extremely difficult.

I'm not sure if you omitted Kung Lao on purpose or if this was just an oversight. If it was purposeful I'd be interested in your analysis of that match.

 

[Altaire]

Wtf CSZ needs a buff?

I mean a tiny buff here or there wouldn't be much of a big deal, but cmon now... people have been saying CSZ is a top character but I just don't think people have been able to use him to his fullest potential. Not saying there aren't good CSZ out there, but I think once someone really shows off what he is capable of then more and more people will realize he is indeed a great character.

Honestly, CSZ is kind of like Kung Lao but not as ridiculous. Very good rushdown, good defense, good damage... what more can you ask for?

...Uh, Cyber Subs doesn't have good defense. The fact that he doesn't have good defense or good conventional zoning is probably all that keeps him from being broke-as-fuck tier.

Anyway, since we're all bringing this up now, I might just make a topic to see how many Cyber Subs players we can get together and determine whose is the best. It's not even about starting a pissing contest, it'd just be cool to see where everyone stacks up. In either case, I'll add both of you for now.

 

[Altaire]

I'd just like to throw in Kung Lao as his hardest match-up. Also, Kenshi is extremely difficult.

I'm not sure if you omitted Kung Lao on purpose or if this was just an oversight. If it was purposeful I'd be interested in your analysis of that match.

Kung Lao really isn't any worse than a 6/4. People think that if Cyber Subs doesn't have his divekick, he's useless.

Like the Cage/Kung Lao matchup, Cyber Subs can go punch for punch with Kung Lao, which doesn't make him nearly as overbearing as he is against most of the cast. The only reason I say that's a 6/4 is that Kung Lao completely invalidates his divekick (which, while not a dealbreaker, is still a huge asset) and Kung Lao has a lot more options. Like the Cyber Subs/Sub Zero matchup, it's definitely doable, but your opponent has an easier time regulating the pace of the match than you do. Kung Lao can outzone you or try to set you up for divekicks, while you can't do the same. That said, you CAN do jumpkick -> divekick for 13% if you see him try to take to the air, so it goes both ways.

 

[Mt. Mutombo]

i dont think he needs buff but i will agree that his ice ball is relatively useless

 

[Ether]

...Uh, what? You can EASILY combo off 2 1 pressure from the ground. It's a safe block string, and it's hit confirmable into either a freeze or 2 1 1+2. Against the majority of the roster, you can just keep pressuring with 2 1 and add on the 1+2 at the end if you see them try to get out. Even if the 1+2 is blocked, you can safely jump out or do a jump back divekick. You get a mixup here, because if they attack or block, you get a safe divekick. If you anticipate a jump, you can just uppercut them. You can also mix in 3 3 EX freeze if they aren't blocking low, and if they ARE blocking low, just throw them. No one seems to realize that you make yourself vulnerable to throws when you commit to blocking low, which is why Ermac's F4 mixup is so strong.

First off, you can easily get a freeze from halfscreen to fullscreen distance if your reads are tight. Often times, you should be throwing out an ice ball on a knockdown just because it's safe, it's free meter and it's good oki. If you have time, you can throw out an ice bomb just to get them off their spot or keep them out of yours, then throw in the ice ball to keep them at bay. There's also nothing stopping you from using EX freeze from fullscreen, because his EX freeze is functionally identical to Sub Zero's.

The parry IS absolutely godlike if used sparingly. It gets you out of frametraps, it completely invalidates the crossup punch and the EX freeze grants you a full combo punish. As long as you don't abuse it to the point where your opponent will actively try to circumvent it, the parry is a godsend.

The slide is better than okay. If you seriously have any issue with this, you're asking for too much.

There's really nothing you can say to defend this. Cyber Sub's only real hard matchups are with Kitana, Raiden and Cage, none of which can't be managed. He has all the tools to handle any other situation, and you'd rather make excuses than use them. Truthfully, I find it pretty amusing that this comes just two weeks after you say you're going to be repping the character at Evo.

I've been told I have one of the best Cyber Subs out there, and you know who I blame when I lose? Myself.

Good points. How is Cage difficult?

I'm not going to argue for the sake of arguing. It's good that this thread at least sparked a detailed discussion about the tools of a relatively unpopular character on a fairly inactive board.

And imo, I still think the bombs should be consistent.

 

[Altaire]

i dont think he needs buff but i will agree that his ice ball is relatively useless

It's really not useless at all. Again, there are safe opportunities to throw it. It builds meter, it occupies space and if you're lucky, you might just catch someone with it. Just because it isn't Sub's ice ball doesn't mean it's useless.

 

[The_Riddler]

Kung Lao really isn't any worse than a 6/4. People think that if Cyber Subs doesn't have his divekick, he's useless.

Like the Cage/Kung Lao matchup, Cyber Subs can go punch for punch with Kung Lao, which doesn't make him nearly as overbearing as he is against most of the cast. The only reason I say that's a 6/4 is that Kung Lao completely invalidates his divekick (which, while not a dealbreaker, is still a huge asset) and Kung Lao has a lot more options. Like the Cyber Subs/Sub Zero matchup, it's definitely doable, but your opponent has an easier time regulating the pace of the match than you do. Kung Lao can outzone you or try to set you up for divekicks, while you can't do the same. That said, you CAN do jumpkick -> divekick for 13% if you see him try to take to the air, so it goes both ways.

I can agree that it's 6-4 Kung Lao, but those other match-ups you mentioned (Cage, Raiden, Kitana) are no worse than that either. I personally feel that Kung Lao is the worst of them though, only because you can't pressure him as well. Any time you attempt to loop 2,1 you are assuming the risk of having him spin you in between and launch you for a combo. Of course he also has to guess whether or not you will add the 1+2, but if that's the case then he benefits anyway by having you end your block string at that point. In addition, any ice ball or bomb you throw out will almost surely be punished on reaction by instant teleport kick into combo. In my opinion, Kung Lao forces you to be too linear while also limited your rushdown capabilities, which is why I think it's the most difficult match-up (even though it's a 4-6, it's his worst 4-6).

 

[Altaire]

I can agree that it's 6-4 Kung Lao, but those other match-ups you mentioned (Cage, Raiden, Kitana) are no worse than that either. I personally feel that Kung Lao is the worst of them though, only because you can't pressure him as well. Any time you attempt to loop 2,1 you are assuming the risk of having him spin you in between and launch you for a combo. Of course he also has to guess whether or not you will add the 1+2, but if that's the case then he benefits anyway by having you end your block string at that point. In addition, any ice ball or bomb you throw out will almost surely be punished on reaction by instant teleport kick into combo. In my opinion, Kung Lao forces you to be too linear while also limited your rushdown capabilities, which is why I think it's the most difficult match-up (even though it's a 4-6, it's his worst 4-6).

...Cage is a very, VERY hard matchup for Cyber Subs. I'd say that's a 7/3 at best. The issue is that Cyber Sub's only real option is rushdown, and Cage is just so much better at it. Cyber Subs can handle Kung Lao because despite having fewer options, he can trade shots with him just fine. He really can't do that with Cage. Realize that Cage is the only character who gives Kung Lao a run for his money in close quarters.

Kitana just makes it entirely too easy to stay away from Cyber Subs and, again, eliminates his divekick from the picture. She can zone him all day, every day. It's a winnable matchup, but it's definitely harder for him.

Kabal similarly zones him out, but unlike Kitana, Kabal has no problem fighting up close. Again, not an unwinnable matchup, but Kabal really forces Cyber Subs to play by his rules. I honestly have an easier time with a good Kung Lao than I do with a good Kabal.

 

[Piggy]

So no one considers his teleport to buffed up? Such as make it faster?

 

[Altaire]

I just don't think he needs it. His teleport is really just there to get him in when he freezes you, and for a select few punish opportunities. If a character with such strong offense could just teleport in to get on you at no real cost, he'd be cheesy as fuck.

 

[The_Riddler]

...Cage is a very, VERY hard matchup for Cyber Subs. I'd say that's a 7/3 at best. The issue is that Cyber Sub's only real option is rushdown, and Cage is just so much better at it. Cyber Subs can handle Kung Lao because despite having fewer options, he can trade shots with him just fine. He really can't do that with Cage. Realize that Cage is the only character who gives Kung Lao a run for his money in close quarters.

Kitana just makes it entirely too easy to stay away from Cyber Subs and, again, eliminates his divekick from the picture. She can zone him all day, every day. It's a winnable matchup, but it's definitely harder for him.

Kabal similarly zones him out, but unlike Kitana, Kabal has no problem fighting up close. Again, not an unwinnable matchup, but Kabal really forces Cyber Subs to play by his rules. I honestly have an easier time with a good Kung Lao than I do with a good Kabal.

I haven't played any top-notch Cage's so I guess I'm not really qualified to dismiss your claim. However, I do know how much of a pain a good Kabal can be.

On the subject of Kung Lao, do you punish his spin consistently on block? It seems to me that 2 is too slow because you have to dash to get in range. I've only done this online though so I'm not quite sure.

 

[Altaire]

I haven't played any top-notch Cage's so I guess I'm not really qualified to dismiss your claim. However, I do know how much of a pain a good Kabal can be.

On the subject of Kung Lao, do you punish his spin consistently on block? It seems to me that 2 is too slow because you have to dash to get in range. I've only done this online though so I'm not quite sure.

You can punish the spin with 2. You can even punish it with U4 (no dash necessary) if you let go of block soon enough, though you need to be quick.

If you really can't get him with 2 1, you could always try B2 4. It's not great, but it shouldn't require a dash to catch him with, and a 13% punish is better than nothing.

 

[Helter Skelter]

1. Fix the Negative Edge as it gives him problems.

2. Make every low move hit him out of regular Ice Parry. It's ridiculously inconsistent.

3. His Ice Ball is a combo extender. Nothing more. Stop being greedy.

4. Make Ice Bombs not roll for so long.

5. If NRS do allow his bombs to blow up an opponent in any state. They should either make it Ice Puddle grounded for 5%.
or alternatively stay the same and deal 0%. He'd be dumber than Cyrax otherwise.

He does not need major buffs he's a very good character. Oh, and his pokes are fine.

 

[Crathen]

Does Csz need any big buff? No

He could use a faster teleport startup to get around Iaf zoning? Yes imo , but nothing broken like Raidens teleport , it kinda bugs me that some characters can Iaf all day from full screen and Csz can't do much without being risky ( slide , iceblast wich can be interrupted , divekick riskying to whiff and get punished ) , take kitana for example ( yeah i know it's a bad matchup ) , she can IaF all day from fullscreen and if Csz tries to iceball/blast you will probably get interrupted , sliding will not get there and you will be punished with f21 and you will get hit if you try to teleport or in case you succeed to teleport she will d1 you to create space , you could dash block your way in just in time for Kitana using his Fan Teleport to get out of the corner and get back to full screen zoning.

Still i won't complain about it , Csz is a great character and his rushdown/oki is great so no need to ask for major buffs

 

[CitizenSnips]

...Uh, Cyber Subs doesn't have good defense. The fact that he doesn't have good defense or good conventional zoning is probably all that keeps him from being broke-as-fuck tier.

I don't main CSZ but I have to stick with my original post and say he at least has good defense. Not anywhere near the best or anything, but his parry alone pretty much makes enemies have to be very careful with jumpins and overly aggressive pressure. When the opponent has to poke and limit their pressure because of parry, I think that's fair enough to call it good defense. But I'm mostly speaking from the view of someone fighting CSZ, I know when I fight them I have to basically just zone or punish.

EDIT: I guess I mean he has good pressure defense. His anti-zoning is weak though like you said.

 

[Altaire]

I don't main CSZ but I have to stick with my original post and say he at least has good defense. Not anywhere near the best or anything, but his parry alone pretty much makes enemies have to be very careful with jumpins and overly aggressive pressure. When the opponent has to poke and limit their pressure because of parry, I think that's fair enough to call it good defense. But I'm mostly speaking from the view of someone fighting CSZ, I know when I fight them I have to basically just zone or punish.

EDIT: I guess I mean he has good pressure defense. His anti-zoning is weak though like you said.

Not trying to blow you up here, but the reason you have to zone and punish is because you just aren't exploiting the parry properly. I'm not saying you're incapable, you just don't do it/don't think to do it, from my experience. If you notice, I rarely ever parry against Lionheart or Milky anymore, because they know which of their tools will bust up the parry. In Reptile's case, you can do D4 forceball all day, because it's a safe poking tool, neither of those attacks can be parried and Cyber Subs can't punish it even IF it's anticipated. D4 acid hand works as well, though you aren't getting a full combo punish for that.

The parry is great for getting out of frametraps, especially against characters like Cage who are going to be constantly hammering you with normals that can be parried, but it's exploitable if abused. If you parry too often, a smart opponent can either 1) go in with low pokes 2) throw projectiles or 3) do a jump in or crossup without the jump-in punch to throw off the parry timing. Even then, if that character has any normal or contact special that can't be parried, they'll start opening with that if there's any way to combo off it. Sektor has the telepunch, Nightwolf has the hatchet, Kung Lao has his low starter, and so on.

When I say a character is strong on defense, I think of someone like Sub Zero or Ermac, who can do a stellar job of keeping you out and can actually use this as a winning strategy. I still think both characters need to press the offense to some degree as well, but I digress.

 

[CitizenSnips]

Not trying to blow you up here, but the reason you have to zone and punish is because you just aren't exploiting the parry properly. I'm not saying you're incapable, you just don't do it/don't think to do it, from my experience. If you notice, I rarely ever parry against Lionheart or Milky anymore, because they know which of their tools will bust up the parry. In Reptile's case, you can do D4 forceball all day, because it's a safe poking tool, neither of those attacks can be parried and Cyber Subs can't punish it even IF it's anticipated. D4 acid hand works as well, though you aren't getting a full combo punish for that.

The reason I never D4 into anything is because back then I didn't know how to easily do it so online I would not bother considering lag also made the timing a bit weird. Also, you aren't blowing me up at all, like I said I don't know CSZ too well like I know Reptile, I was just putting an opinion out there. And plus I'm 2-1 against your CSZ which means little to nothing since that's hardly enough games played to determine anything and I never had a problem with your CSZ parries but instead I did get my shit pushed in by Judgement Blade's a week or so ago. I do agree though, once you are more careful about the ice parry it's not a huge problem but it is a very good way to at least deal with overly aggressive players.

I guess I might over-value the parry a bit because I do believe it is a great tool. Not only does it function as a counter but it really functions well with mind games too. That's all I was trying to say. I am aware of it's weaknesses and how to get around it, but I still think it is an awesome tool.

 

[Creepy00]

well idk cyber sub but my friend main him
I would say a faster start up in iceball, remove negative edge or change properties in his ice bombs (sometimes it will come out if you try to dash from his bnb)IMO

 

[Altaire]

The reason I never D4 into anything is because back then I didn't know how to easily do it so online I would not bother considering lag also made the timing a bit weird. Also, you aren't blowing me up at all, like I said I don't know CSZ too well like I know Reptile, I was just putting an opinion out there. And plus I'm 2-1 against your CSZ which means little to nothing since that's hardly enough games played to determine anything and I never had a problem with your CSZ parries but instead I did get my shit pushed in by Judgement Blade's a week or so ago. I do agree though, once you are more careful about the ice parry it's not a huge problem but it is a very good way to at least deal with overly aggressive players.

I guess I might over-value the parry a bit because I do believe it is a great tool. Not only does it function as a counter but it really functions well with mind games too. That's all I was trying to say. I am aware of it's weaknesses and how to get around it, but I still think it is an awesome tool.

The first time you played my Cyber Sub was what, two or three months ago? I was still maining Sub Zero at that point. I didn't start putting real work into Cyber Subs until it hit me that he was a much better fit for my more aggressive playstyle, because he's more balls-out rushdown than Sub Zero is.

Taking that into consideration, we're effectively 1-1. You don't see me gloating about the win I have against your Cyber Subs, because I know he isn't your main. Even then, Reptile runs all over him in that matchup because you can punish even a safe divekick (connects below chest level) with the elbow dash 100% of the time. Factor in that EX elbow dash is 17% on its own, and that's a pretty rough matchup for him, especially since Reptile grossly outzones him. Nevermind that he has a million and one pokes that can't be parried.

tl;dr Reptile has an answer for everything Cyber Subs has. At this point, I just avoid that matchup altogether and go to Ermac or Sub Zero.

 

[CitizenSnips]

The first time you played my Cyber Sub was what, two or three months ago? I was still maining Sub Zero at that point. I didn't start putting real work into Cyber Subs until it hit me that he was a much better fit for my more aggressive playstyle, because he's more balls-out rushdown than Sub Zero is.

Taking that into consideration, we're effectively 1-1. You don't see me gloating about the win I have against your Cyber Subs, because I know he isn't your main. Even then, Reptile runs all over him in that matchup because you can punish even a safe divekick (connects below chest level) with the elbow dash 100% of the time. Factor in that EX elbow dash is 17% on its own, and that's a pretty rough matchup for him, especially since Reptile grossly outzones him. Nevermind that he has a million and one pokes that can't be parried.

tl;dr Reptile has an answer for everything Cyber Subs has. At this point, I just avoid that matchup altogether and go to Ermac or Sub Zero.

Actually the first time I fought your CSZ I lost lol. I won the following two by punishing divekick like you just said.

And how exactly am I gloating? The reason I brought it up is because 3 matches is pretty much nothing. I only threw it in there because you said "not trying to blow you up," which I was just trying to say I know you aren't because how can you blow someone up when we've played so few games? That's the only reason... I had no intention to say I'm better or anything. Your Sub is 1-0 against me I really don't care because again, it was just one match.

And I don't think CSZ v. Reptile is in anyone's favor. Divekick is indeed easily punished by elbow dash, but CSZ has enough going for him in that match up imo. His pressuring is very solid and that combined with his parry is hard to deal with. Yes, I can D4-acid hand to avoid the parry, but I'm not going to win just on that. CSZ slide also iirc goes under normal forceballs which helps him a bit with the zoning problem. I don't know why you think I'm trying to say 2-1 means much of anything especialy when I literally wrote "means little to nothing," when I mentioned it.

 

[PND OmegaK]

tl;dr Reptile has an answer for everything Cyber Subs has. At this point, I just avoid that matchup altogether and go to Ermac or Sub Zero.

You can make reptile's zoning game redundant with divekicks, so I don't see why you're having problems with the match up.

 

[Error]

One question, is CSZ's slide more punishable than SZ's slide on whiff, I feel like it takes forever to recover.

CSZ slide also iirc goes under normal forceballs which helps him a bit with the zoning problem.

Nah, it only goes under spit.

 

[The_Riddler]

And I don't think CSZ v. Reptile is in anyone's favor. Divekick is indeed easily punished by elbow dash, but CSZ has enough going for him in that match up imo. His pressuring is very solid and that combined with his parry is hard to deal with. Yes, I can D4-acid hand to avoid the parry, but I'm not going to win just on that. CSZ slide also iirc goes under normal forceballs which helps him a bit with the zoning problem.

I agree that the match-up is even, but Cyber Sub's slide most definitely does NOT go under forceballs. Dive kick works well against forceballs though, and an EX dive kick punish for 18% is pretty significant. It will most likely deter a Reptile from zoning at all, unless it's on wake-up. Slide goes under acid spit.

 

[CitizenSnips]

I agree that the match-up is even, but Cyber Sub's slide most definitely does NOT go under forceballs. Dive kick works well against forceballs though, and an EX dive kick punish for 18% is pretty significant. It will most likely deter a Reptile from zoning at all, unless it's on wake-up. Slide goes under acid spit.

Ahh maybe on wakeup he can go under forceballs? I don't know who I am thinking of (maybe Mileena) but I recall someone able to go under forceballs with that type of move. It's probably Mileena... or maybe it was just someone with armor on their move. And yea, the divekicks cockblock zoning unless for whatever reason CSZ is from full screen away. But it is fun to anticipate a divekick and instead charge a forceball and have them go into it.

 

[Altaire]

Actually the first time I fought your CSZ I lost lol. I won the following two by punishing divekick like you just said.

And how exactly am I gloating? The reason I brought it up is because 3 matches is pretty much nothing. I only threw it in there because you said "not trying to blow you up," which I was just trying to say I know you aren't because how can you blow someone up when we've played so few games? That's the only reason... I had no intention to say I'm better or anything. Your Sub is 1-0 against me I really don't care because again, it was just one match.

And I don't think CSZ v. Reptile is in anyone's favor. Divekick is indeed easily punished by elbow dash, but CSZ has enough going for him in that match up imo. His pressuring is very solid and that combined with his parry is hard to deal with. Yes, I can D4-acid hand to avoid the parry, but I'm not going to win just on that. CSZ slide also iirc goes under normal forceballs which helps him a bit with the zoning problem. I don't know why you think I'm trying to say 2-1 means much of anything especialy when I literally wrote "means little to nothing," when I mentioned it.

...Wat

No dude, the second time I EVER played you was in a KotH. You'd been picking Cyber Subs all night, so just to be cheeky, I thought I'd go for a Cyber Subs mirror. You wound up going to Reptile, at which point I thought "Welp, this isn't going to end well". You shut me down in that match pretty soundly. In fact, I can only remember playing you with Cyber Subs two other times, so I don't know what to tell you there. Either you're remembering me wrong or you're thinking of someone else.

I'm 2-0 with your Reptile with Subs, by the way. The first time we had that match was the first time I played you, and I barely took that one. The second one was quite a bit more convincing on my part, which I attribute to having more experience with Reptile by then. I played you once in KotH (I think I'd just managed to dethrone Lion for a little while). I know it was in the couple of weeks leading up to Evo, because I can remember making a crack about how you'd need to learn how to stop him before you left. I don't know how you missed that, really.

You can blow someone up for how they play, by the way, which is what I'm referring to. I've seen you play in KotH more often than I've actually played you (this tends to be the trend when Milky is king), and that's just something I've noticed. I specified because I didn't want to come across as that dick who tells you that you're bad at the game, since I was just giving constructive criticism. I wasn't trying to imply that you were gloating, by the way, so perhaps my wording was off. All I was saying is that I wouldn't really count those games, since I know he isn't a serious character for you. At the time, he wasn't one for me, either. It's almost sad how much I half-assed my Cyber Subs back then, knowing how much potential he has now.

...And not to blow up Judgement Blade, but I don't know how you have a harder time with his Cyber Subs. He has a good Smoke and a pretty good Cage, but I'd state for the record that my Cyber Subs trumps his. Nothing against him, by any means.

About the matchup, a few things:

1) Almost all of his good pressure strings can be punished by the elbow dash. Reptile has him beat here. I'm pretty sure he can even interrupt a blocked 2 1 1+2 after the 2 1 with an elbow dash, though I'm not sure on that.

2) He can't slide under forceballs. He can slide under acid spit, but unlike Sub Zero, he has no answer to the force ball, so Reptile can zone him out with it all day. If your forceball spacing is too predictable, he can punish with a divekick, but that doesn't happen if you're careful. If you're thinking of the wakeup slide, both Subs and Cyber Subs can go through projectiles with EX slide on wakeup (very inconsistently, as with every "invincible wakeup" in the game).

3) Again, Reptile basically invalidates the parry.

I wouldn't say it's an impossible matchup, but definitely 6-4 in Reptile's favor as far as I'm concerned. He just has a much easier time shutting down Cyber Subs in that matchup.