The Zoning Academy (Mortal Kombat X Edition)

[MrProfDrPepper]

people are starting to catch on how many recovery frames telefury is on whiff, trying to think of a way around this, anyone have any ideas? so far i am thinking maybe bait them into my telepush range maybe, or bait out a run so i can punish it with telefury, if anyone can give me some zoning strats with kenshi that would be wonderful

 

[AK XEN0M0RPH]

He should be more specific and say braindead 50/50 starters.

There are always exceptions yes, but the vast majority of the cast doesn't have stuff like "oh look I landed a Sonya low poke, now you must guess OH/Low starter to not lose 30%" or "oh look, Ermac landed a kick so now you must guess OH/Low starter to not lose 35%, and if you guess wrong you lose the health and have to guess again" or Raiden's "oh look, that combo 3/4's of the screen away put my in the corner, so now I must guess to not lose the entire round in the corner".

The fact of 50/50's is not the problem. The problem is how incredibly stupid, easy, and powerful the 50/50 starters are.

Every one of those were full combo punishable for the same damage. Only 50/50 that is truly dumb is sonya cause she can sometimes make it safe for no meter

 

[SaltShaker]

Every one of those were full combo punishable for the same damage. Only 50/50 that is truly dumb is sonya cause she can sometimes make it safe for no meter

Raiden cannot be punished for his 50/50 because anyone with an ounce of skill will OS. Meanwhile his reward is massive.

Almost everyone can make their 50/50 starters safe at this point in the game.

 

[AK XEN0M0RPH]

Zoning with cassie ? She is rushdown lol. I did combos and also armour break setups if you watch the whole way through instead of pick out negatives because you don't like the style of zoning that the character has obviously been made for.

Cassie is footsies, not pure rush down. I use b1, b2, d4, and iag to control space. And I did watch the whole thing. Doing b22 or b311 into ss I don't count as a combo in mkx. Maybe in street fighter.

 

[AK XEN0M0RPH]

Raiden cannot be punished for his 50/50 because anyone with an ounce of skill will OS. Meanwhile his reward is massive.

Almost everyone can make their 50/50 starters safe at this point in the game.

I don't use os cause I view it as cheating. If you block correctly you should be rewarded. I should not be rewarded if I input the buttons correctly and it covers all options. And many 50/50s can be made safe, tho with meter. Like your boy shinnok. Best zoning / rush down/ and matter build. Like wtf

 

[SaltShaker]

I don't use os cause I view it as cheating. If you block correctly you should be rewarded. I should not be rewarded if I input the buttons correctly and it covers all options. And many 50/50s can be made safe, tho with meter. Like your boy shinnok. Best zoning / rush down/ and matter build. Like wtf

Don't me wrong, I HATE OS in this game, I love winning even more, so use them. I don't think they are leaving at this point, so I'd rather use it than not and have my opponent use them.

Yea Shinnok is pretty stupid in BS, I'll even admit that. Don't see the point in "three variations" when "one" variation can do everything better than the other two lol.

 

[Carmine]

people are starting to catch on how many recovery frames telefury is on whiff, trying to think of a way around this, anyone have any ideas? so far i am thinking maybe bait them into my telepush range maybe, or bait out a run so i can punish it with telefury, if anyone can give me some zoning strats with kenshi that would be wonderful

Using standing 1 you can normally bait out a response of some type, which you can react to, or if they don't have a teleport I normally spam tele push to build free meter to bait out a response as well, or you can randomly run in throw/b32 for full combo

 

[Doombawkz]

it takes skill with some of the cast, but still 50/50 is not your reward. why should a guessing game be your reward?
playing better is your reward, maybe a good read? a bait? some character have real good pressure too and mind games.

Let me put it this way.

As a zoner, you utilize screen control and for doing so, you get a reward being chip damage. The risk you face for a wrong guess, say a low projectile they guard, is the opponent inches closer.

You have inevitably less risk, and thus less reward, however that is how it goes. If you guess wrong on your offense, you don't take any direct damage most of the time, you just get less space to control.


As a rush down, my risk is higher because for every wrong guess I lose resource, being health. My reward is greater once I get in being I am allowed to put pressure on, in the form of 50/50s usually, but those also carry some risk in the form of your ability to block and punish through armor or negative frames.

So as a zoner your risk is low and your reward is low. As a rush down, my risk is high and my reward is high.


Am I saying 50/50s take skill? No, but then they aren't the problem. The problem is it's easier to approach and stay in than it is to keep me out. It's disproportionate reward for what ends out being a lower risk overall on my side while your side is unchanged.

You wanna fix something, start with the approach

 

[NHDR]

Some of these posts I'm reading. WTF?

1. 50/50's exist in Street Fighter. In fact, they're abundant in SF4. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't played the game.

2. That video of HQT Predator against Kitana is pure zoning. How is it NOT zoning? The only reason it looks like "braindead spam" is because the Kitana player was inexperienced. He didn't even try to run, dash, walk forward, or jump. Its obvious he was overwhelmed by simple projectiles. The Predator kept Kitana out. That's the definition of zoning.

 

[Helter Skelter]

This is one the only communities where zoning people is exclusively relegated to projectile attacks where their opponent is unable to retaliate.

Jacqui can zone most of the cast with Low Shotty.

Other games have characters like Dormammu, Vega, Guile, Faust, Te
stament, Peacock, Glacius, Kan-Ra, etc. Where zoning is actually interactive with the other player or is heavily reliant on gaining momentum to maintain offence.

Zoning is about attempt to keep your opponent in certain parts of the screen in an effort to benefit yourself or disadvantage your opponent.

Which Cassie attempts to do every time she pushes you to the corner.

However is NRS world this means everyone being Zod from injustice and standing in one place throwing shit.

...Btw, I main Shinnok and Quan Chi in this game.

 

[conqueror]

Let me put it this way.

As a zoner, you utilize screen control and for doing so, you get a reward being chip damage. The risk you face for a wrong guess, say a low projectile they guard, is the opponent inches closer.

You have inevitably less risk, and thus less reward, however that is how it goes. If you guess wrong on your offense, you don't take any direct damage most of the time, you just get less space to control.


As a rush down, my risk is higher because for every wrong guess I lose resource, being health. My reward is greater once I get in being I am allowed to put pressure on, in the form of 50/50s usually, but those also carry some risk in the form of your ability to block and punish through armor or negative frames.

So as a zoner your risk is low and your reward is low. As a rush down, my risk is high and my reward is high.


Am I saying 50/50s take skill? No, but then they aren't the problem. The problem is it's easier to approach and stay in than it is to keep me out. It's disproportionate reward for what ends out being a lower risk overall on my side while your side is unchanged.

You wanna fix something, start with the approach

what are you talking about? (i know kenshi (balanced) more so my examples are based on him) for example if someone, anyone low profiles his df3, he's open to full combo punish no matter where or who you are!! (he can't do anything even come closer to you
when you dodge his db4, you can get pretty close and maybe bait his armor or read something, it's on your favour from any angle less space for him too.
his bf2 is punishable, except mb version, that doesn't lead too anything. same thing with db1 except mb version of this move is not safe.

so isn't this your reward? or you just want to walk in say hi in middle of the way to some npc? (don't take me wrong i'm not downplaying kenshi in any way, just telling his weaknesses and your rewards for good read and play. except well in kenjutsu with his 11, 111 and 114.)

 

[Doombawkz]

what are you talking about? (i know kenshi (balanced) more so my examples are based on him) for example if someone, anyone low profiles his df3, he's open to full combo punish no matter where or who you are!! (he can't do anything even come closer to you
when you dodge his db4, you can get pretty close and maybe bait his armor or read something, it's on your favour from any angle less space for him too.
his bf2 is punishable, except mb version, that doesn't lead too anything. same thing with db1 except mb version of this move is not safe.

so isn't this your reward? or you just want to walk in say hi in middle of the way to some npc? (don't take me wrong i'm not downplaying kenshi in any way, just telling his weaknesses and your rewards for good read and play. except well in kenjutsu with his 11, 111 and 114.)

To repeat, the issue is disproportionate risk to reward. For kenshi, I'll give the counter that F/T cannot do anything to him because he controls space well.

You're right, most character duck and rush kenshi down for missing a move, but that's not to the fault of 50/50s.

If you played injustice, Bane was a rush down monster. He had free armor on everything, but that's not what made him good. Every 18 seconds his pressure would inevitably end, but what made him the monster he was was his ability to cover the entire screen in 2 dashes.

You couldn't zone bane most of the time simply because he covered so much distance in so little time. The characters who could were Zod (a top 5 zoner) and Lex (who controlled with mines). That's it. Bane didn't have to risk much to get a huge reward, and he could force that reward to happen every time because of his approach game.


Now let's take MKx into the light. The big problem isn't that the characters have a advantage when they get close (some do but that's another thing), it's that they constantly get to press that advantage because keeping them out is much harder than them getting in.

In ratio form, the risk/reward should be 0/.5 for zoning, and 1/1 for rushdown. Instead it's 0.5/.75 for zoning, and 1/1.25 for rush down. Zoning carries risk now due to some characters sheer mobility and the existence of teleports, and the reward is meager, where as the rush down face the same risk they did before, but get bigger rewards by merit that their risk is present for less time while zoning is present the entire match.

Once a rush down gets in, his risk drops because he no longer risks losing resource on his way in. As he does, the zoning risk becomes infinite because there is no longer any space to control. Rush down changes in flat units, where as zoning changes in exponent based on those units. It's all very complex and weird sounding, but basically to answer your question, yes it is my reward but it shouldn't be.

Me ducking a telefury should get me half-screen distance, not a full combo punish.

 

[conqueror]

To repeat, the issue is disproportionate risk to reward. For kenshi, I'll give the counter that F/T cannot do anything to him because he controls space well.

You're right, most character duck and rush kenshi down for missing a move, but that's not to the fault of 50/50s.

If you played injustice, Bane was a rush down monster. He had free armor on everything, but that's not what made him good. Every 18 seconds his pressure would inevitably end, but what made him the monster he was was his ability to cover the entire screen in 2 dashes.

You couldn't zone bane most of the time simply because he covered so much distance in so little time. The characters who could were Zod (a top 5 zoner) and Lex (who controlled with mines). That's it. Bane didn't have to risk much to get a huge reward, and he could force that reward to happen every time because of his approach game.


Now let's take MKx into the light. The big problem isn't that the characters have a advantage when they get close (some do but that's another thing), it's that they constantly get to press that advantage because keeping them out is much harder than them getting in.

In ratio form, the risk/reward should be 0/.5 for zoning, and 1/1 for rushdown. Instead it's 0.5/.75 for zoning, and 1/1.25 for rush down. Zoning carries risk now due to some characters sheer mobility and the existence of teleports, and the reward is meager, where as the rush down face the same risk they did before, but get bigger rewards by merit that their risk is present for less time while zoning is present the entire match.

Once a rush down gets in, his risk drops because he no longer risks losing resource on his way in. As he does, the zoning risk becomes infinite because there is no longer any space to control. Rush down changes in flat units, where as zoning changes in exponent based on those units. It's all very complex and weird sounding, but basically to answer your question, yes it is my reward but it shouldn't be.

Me ducking a telefury should get me half-screen distance, not a full combo punish.

i feel like sometimes you're talking to someone else, you didn't really respond to my post!

lets go back to my post

1) when you low profile kenshi's df3, you can full combo punish him with everyone from 3/4 screen. (my bad you can't full combo punish it from full screen with everyone but most character have some sort of move that can knock him down and get to him) isn't this your reward? (please answer)

2)when you block his db4, you can get close, sometimes pretty close. when you read it and dodge his db4, you can simply full combo punish him from anywhere. isn't this your reward?

3)when you block his bf2, his at -15 thats pretty good right?, the mb version is -2 on block and if you read anyone of this 2 moves you can simply jump in punch him and then full combo punish. isn't this your reward?


"the issue is disproportionate risk to reward" what? dude let me make it simple, you make a read you get your reward, (most of the time a big ass one in this game) you don't zooner gets his reward.

 

[Doombawkz]

i feel like sometimes you're talking to someone else, you didn't really respond to my post!

lets go back to my post

1) when you low profile kenshi's df3, you can full combo punish him with everyone from 3/4 screen. (my bad you can't full combo punish it from full screen with everyone but most character have some sort of move that can knock him down and get to him) isn't this your reward? (please answer)

2)when you block his db4, you can get close, sometimes pretty close. when you read it and dodge his db4, you can simply full combo punish him from anywhere. isn't this your reward?

3)when you block his bf2, his at -15 thats pretty good right?, the mb version is -2 on block and if you read anyone of this 2 moves you can simply jump in punch him and then full combo punish. isn't this your reward?


"the issue is disproportionate risk to reward" what? dude let me make it simple, you make a read you get your reward, (most of the time a big ass one in this game) you don't zooner gets his reward.

I did answer it in my final lines, but I'll do it again.

1) No you don't, and no its not my "reward" so much as its your "risk" for doing that move.

2) See above. Some characters might but thats an issue of approach, not 50/50.

3) Please don't use "if" situations to justify things. You can equally say "if" kenshi lands every hit, he wins, which is true. The issue isn't "if" he whiffs it, its "when" he does so what does he lose?


You're right, though its not so simple as that. So whats the issue then, the fact that when I get in I get pressure, or the fact that I can pressure whenever I want because I can always get in?

 

[Black Chapters]

Damn, never saw this topic before.

I'm looking at Zoning with FF Liu Kang, he's got:

Shaolin Flame adds damage to all fire and punch attacks, Dragon's Roar is neutral on block, and ending a combo with it allows a safe SF activation.
Fireballs do 10.5%, ex does 15% and Dragon's Roar does 7%, ex is 8%, also the Instant Air Fireballs add to the Zoning. b2 has good range as well, and his Uppercut has use as well.

I always looked at Dragon's Fire as the Rushdown Variant and Flame Fist as the Zoner Variant, that's how I used it well before the recent patches.

This game needs balance, it needs more Zoning.

 

[conqueror]

I did answer it in my final lines, but I'll do it again.

1) No you don't, and no its not my "reward" so much as its your "risk" for doing that move.

2) See above. Some characters might but thats an issue of approach, not 50/50.

3) Please don't use "if" situations to justify things. You can equally say "if" kenshi lands every hit, he wins, which is true. The issue isn't "if" he whiffs it, its "when" he does so what does he lose?


You're right, though its not so simple as that. So whats the issue then, the fact that when I get in I get pressure, or the fact that I can pressure whenever I want because I can always get in?

all i see is a big reward for every read, you might see a zooner like kenshi superior but i don't. it was good talk, i enjoyed it.

 

[Doombawkz]

all i see is a big reward for every read, you might see a zooner like kenshi superior but i don't. it was good talk, i enjoyed it.

I just feel like every character should have a bit harder of a time getting in, and thats about it.

 

[gibster13]

I think there is a lot more zoning now then what was before. It is not as rewarded as pushdown and 50/50s but it is still there. There might be a 60s timer instead of 99 which will benefit the more defensive type which is good.

 

[gibster13]

Who knew A-list could zone ? Johnnys fireballs are not that bad but his pressure is way better I thought to upload it here for it might help Thanks and enjoy

 

[gibster13]

Some Quan Zoning in a match! I think Quan has top 2 zoning maybe its only competition is Hish-qu-ten ? Enjoy

 

[gibster13]

Sorry for another video but this one is hella good! Me vs UnDeadJim (tournament player) I try to zone as much as i can

Enjoy !

 

[legion666]

I think Summoner Quan Chi is still number 1 zoner in the game, he outzones every character in the game if played right.

 

[M2Dave]

I think Summoner Quan Chi is still number 1 zoner in the game, he outzones every character in the game if played right.

Correct.

In terms of zoning potential...

1. Summoner Quan Chi
2. Hish-Qu-Ten Predator
3. Bone Shaper Shinnok

In terms of overall potential...

1. Bone Shaper Shinnok
2. Summoner Quan Chi
3. Hish-Qu-Ten Predator

But I am honestly not certain who is better overall between Summoner Quan Chi and Hish-Qu-Ten Predator, who is still being heavily explored.

 

[Israfel]

Sign me up, Brothers!

 

[SaltShaker]

Correct.

In terms of zoning potential...

1. Summoner Quan Chi
2. Hish-Qu-Ten Predator
3. Bone Shaper Shinnok

In terms of overall potential...

1. Bone Shaper Shinnok
2. Summoner Quan Chi
3. Hish-Qu-Ten Predator

But I am honestly not certain who is better overall between Summoner Quan Chi and Hish-Qu-Ten Predator, who is still being heavily explored.

Yea I agree. I was thinking about what you said in the QC thread off and on for about a week, and was still thinking on it but you're right. Summoner QC does have better zoning as whole due to the results he can get from it as well as the high mid to full screen damage off of it. Unless some unexpected DLC comes along in a steroid version of Noob, he'll probably hold down the #1 spot.

Where as overall BS Shinnok runs away with that #1 spot. I would say HQT might be able to be close though with his fully safe pressure and mixups with the PS Cancels. A ji2 on block or pressure off a landed D3 can have some filthy safe 50/50's. Something like Ji2 B31~PS Cancel 32~EX DB3 is hard not to get hit at least once for 30% or more. OH/Low/OH/Low inside of that on top of the ways you can mix it up, while being +. QC has his own endless guesses where you eventually guess wrong too, with more direct set ups so I guess it cancels out lol.

All in all, I think those 3 characters run away with this category with Kitana trailing behind at 4th.