What's new

The Zoning Academy (Mortal Kombat 11 Edition)

This.

Ive always wondered what the thought process is when designing these character. A lot of the characters have moves slapped in without any sort of cohesion, although there are a few exceptions. It seems like they just thought up whatever move thats cool and just throw it in there. We then end up with characters having useless ass moves wondering wtf is the point of it.
Sometimes I end up having to rush Sonya down :confused:
 

JTC

ABILITY TO FREEZE
Fuck the kombat kasts. They were full of nonsense. No one should be basing their opinion of the meta or how to play characters based on those. Day 1 hopping in game, anyone with their own eyes can look at Noob and his frame data and make a judgement for themselves.

Having explored and labbed a lot of the cast, if I step back and approach the game thinking “Which character is going to give me the best fullscreen options?” It’s going to be Cetrion, Skarlet, and Erron, and they’re all strong as fuck. Zoning’s fine. We gotta define terms to get anywhere.
I dont disagree.

This why i was confused when they mention noob as a zoner but when you take a look at his movesets that doesnt seem to be the case.

However you would think the devs themselves would know what theyre talking about. I mean its their game lol. If the devs dont know that theyre doing or talking about then what does that say about the game?
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
I like zoning with Sonya, but she's also strong up close. Which is rare to see within one character. I do hope Terminator, Fujin and if the cyber ninjas make it. Sektor are all zone heavy.
As much as I want Sonya nerfed (AND BOY I FUCKING DO), I feel like this combination isn’t necessarily the issue. Remember Dragonfire Liu Kang from MKX? Between lowfireball and IAF, he had MEAN fucking zoning and he was a monster at close range (watch Ninjakiller). I think the difference is that when he went in he was still playing mindgames, he wasn’t blowing you up for 45% for missing a coin flip.

I think we gotta separate characters being OP, from us judging who’s a zoner and who isn’t by their close range tools. Being a zoner is about having options from fullscreen, and Sonya has em. Even if they add startup frames to rings, or make the 2nd one high, or delete the KB, she’d still have a great projectile and a good turret drop. Having a close game doesn’t mean a character can’t be a “zoner.” It’s about the range game.
 

GLoRToR

You're my fan if you can't stop shitposting me.
Noob was labeled a "premier zoning character" on the Kombat Kast. I agree with your main point, though. Archetypes have no meaning in this game because the top tier characters do everything very well. I suppose Cetrion is technically the best traditional zoning character while Scorpion is the best anti-zoning and space control character.
They also promised us an "honest fighting game based on fundamentals".
Look at all the fundamentals Geras, Scorpion or Erron take to play lmao MKX all over again.
They also said no definitive mixups and look at Kabal and Sub-Zero.

Yeah. Noob might be a spacing character but he's more an anti-zoner in my opinion.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
Yeah. Noob might be a spacing character but he's more an anti-zoner in my opinion.
To me, Noob is a mid-range character. He has very good normal attacks, great anti-aerial attacks, and high damaging combos. Of course, the top tier characters have what Noob has and much more.

If you slowed down Scorpion's teleport by seven frames, changed the hit range from mid to high, caused the amplified version to come out on hit only, and removed the ability to perform aerial teleport, you would be left with Noob's teleport. LOL. So he is not much an anti-zoning character.

We gotta define terms to get anywhere.
How about a character that can keep most other characters half a screen away or farther? Or a character that can force most other characters to approach him/her?

The reality is in a game with Erron Black's projectile parry, Geras's sand trap, Jade's glow, Scorpion's teleport, Sub Zero's EX ice ball, etc. zoning is limited and anything but fine. In order to zone some of the aforementioned characters effectively, you would need some exceptional zoning, which does not exist in this game.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
As much as I want Sonya nerfed (AND BOY I FUCKING DO), I feel like this combination isn’t necessarily the issue. Remember Dragonfire Liu Kang from MKX? Between lowfireball and IAF, he had MEAN fucking zoning and he was a monster at close range (watch Ninjakiller). I think the difference is that when he went in he was still playing mindgames, he wasn’t blowing you up for 45% for missing a coin flip.

I think we gotta separate characters being OP, from us judging who’s a zoner and who isn’t by their close range tools. Being a zoner is about having options from fullscreen, and Sonya has em. Even if they add startup frames to rings, or make the 2nd one high, or delete the KB, she’d still have a great projectile and a good turret drop. Having a close game doesn’t mean a character can’t be a “zoner.” It’s about the range game.
As a Sonya player I don't want her nerfed too much I'll admit, however I will say if they do touch her they better damn well nerf Erron Black, Geras, Scorp and Sub. I feel like whenever I go online that's all I get the typical go to "win character" and I think that needs to change. Yeah I know LK was a solid overall character in MK X, though I don't recall him winning a lot of tourneys if memory serves though that one guy was a beast with him. Damage output in this game is reduced though some characters can still get decent % combos for sure. I have noticed her far turret drop will miss if you're at full screen, like the fullest range full screen but most of the time people won't be THAT far so the one that reaches almost full range length screen will still hit you, then you have the mid and of course close one. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if they decided to make her either a zoner or strong up close, me personally I'd prefer the former being a zoning player but that's me lol.
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
As a Sonya player I don't her nerfed too much, however I will say if they do touch her they better damn well nerf Erron Black, Geras, Scorp and Sub. Yeah I know LK was a solid overall character in MK X, though I don't recall him winning a lot of tourneys if memory serves though that one guy was a beast with him. Damage output in this game is reduced though some characters can still get decent % combos for sure. I have noticed her far turret drop will miss if you're at full screen, like the fullest range full screen but most of the time people won't be THAT far so the one that reaches almost full range length screen will still hit you, then you have the mid and of course close one. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if they decided to make her either a zoner or strong up close, me personally I'd prefer the former being a zoning player but that's me lol.
I mean, they should get nerfed as well, but on their own merits. Not as an act of equality for Sonya mains. Doesn’t her projectile have a 12f startup? It’s nothing major with her, the main complaint I’ve heard is damage output. Her mixup is a short range high starter, sure, but then the cancels. She’s honestly one of the few characters I haven’t labbed at all, and right now I just want her rings nerfed.

She’s not going to be bottom tier once they tone her down, and anyone who drops a character because of nerfs was never a real main to begin with.
 
Last edited:

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
To me, Noob is a mid-range character. He has very good normal attacks, great anti-aerial attacks, and high damaging combos. Of course, the top tier characters have what Noob has and much more.

If you slowed down Scorpion's teleport by seven frames, changed the hit range from mid to high, caused the amplified version to come out on hit only, and removed the ability to perform aerial teleport, you would be left with Noob's teleport. LOL. So he is not much an anti-zoning character.



How about a character that can keep most other characters half a screen away or farther? Or a character that can force most other characters to approach him/her?

The reality is in a game with Erron Black's projectile parry, Geras's sand trap, Jade's glow, Scorpion's teleport, Sub Zero's EX ice ball, etc. zoning is limited and anything but fine. In order to zone some of the aforementioned characters effectively, you would need some exceptional zoning, which does not exist in this game.
To repeat my point, why is Erron Black not a zoner? Or Geras? Or Jade? Or SZ? Why aren’t they examples of strong zoning? You just defined “zoner” yourself and every character you mentioned fell perfectly in line with your own definition. I always have to approach Geras and EB. And they can keep me more than half a screen away if they want to.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
I mean, they should get nerfed as well, but on their own merits. Not as an act of equality for Sonya mains. Doesn’t her projectile have a 12f startup? It’s nothing major with her, the main complaint I’ve heard is damage output. Her mixup is a short range high starter, sure, but then the cancels. She’s honestly one of the few characters I haven’t labbed at all, and right now I just want her rings nerfed.
Oh yeah of course, I mean just for game balance. I honestly have seen way more Blacks, Subs, Scorps and Geras's than Sonya(from my experience honestly) so far at least. Yeah I believe so. Yeah, though to be fair there are characters you don't hear about like Kung Lao who's damage output is pretty high as well, I played this one guy other night who was doing 40% like nothing with seemingly very little effort. But he's not top tier so nobody notices or cares. At any rate, I think a few characters need some nerfing/tweaking even if it's a lot, not saying to kill them all together just balance out some things for sure. I wouldn't mind if they slowed down Sonya's rings.
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
Oh yeah of course, I mean just for game balance. I honestly have seen way more Blacks, Subs, Scorps and Geras's than Sonya(from my experience honestly) so far at least. Yeah I believe so. Yeah, though to be fair there are characters you don't hear about like Kung Lao who's damage output is pretty high as well, I played this one guy other night who was doing 40% like nothing with seemingly very little effort. But he's not top tier so nobody notices or cares. At any rate, I think a few characters need some nerfing/tweaking even if it's a lot, not saying to kill them all together just balance out some things for sure. I wouldn't mind if they slowed down Sonya's rings.
KL’s damage is situational and dependent on KB’s though. He doesn’t get it off a coin flip. Context matters. And for sure on the nerfs- Geras for example should be gutted. No reason for him to have the best throws, and the best combo damage, and the best fullscreen game, and the best d1, and the best jump in, and tied with EB for best fatal blow, and a -3 cancellable 11f startup no gap all mid string, and a consistent 4 KBs a game. The dude’s insane. Keep seeing people go “don’t nerf, he’s not that bad” bullshit. Or “buff everyone to his level” then we get janky shit like Project M 3.0. Fun, but drives competitive players away.
 
If close range characters have taken such a big hit, why are all the characters with the best mix ups (i.e., Erron Black, Geras, Jacqui, Sonya, Sub Zero) considered S tier while the zoning characters (i.e., Cetrion, Noob) are not?

I would also argue that Mortal Kombat 11 gives you less defensive options than Mortal Kombat X as long as you are standing considering there are no armor moves and backdashes have no invincibility frames.
there is a serious issue with backdashing in this game, those characters are winning because theres no way to get away once they get in- but the projectiles and long range moves seem fine if we could just gtfo away for a second.
i mained raiden with the intention of being an anti zoner but for the most part i just keep away and shoot despite that not being my natural style so i guess i have a small bias since zoning is working for me

i wish we had a run button that worked both directions, run towards and run away.
 

GLoRToR

You're my fan if you can't stop shitposting me.
To me, Noob is a mid-range character. He has very good normal attacks, great anti-aerial attacks, and high damaging combos. Of course, the top tier characters have what Noob has and much more.

If you slowed down Scorpion's teleport by seven frames, changed the hit range from mid to high, caused the amplified version to come out on hit only, and removed the ability to perform aerial teleport, you would be left with Noob's teleport. LOL. So he is not much an anti-zoning character.
Fair enough. I consider him an anti-zoner because of the punish damage off of his mb teleport.

My proposed changes to Scorpion are similar;
  1. MB only comes out on hit, not on block or on whiff
  2. Teleport a high
  3. Cancels are more unsafe the closer they happen to the opponent, with -5 outside sweep and -30 in the opponent's face.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
KL’s damage is situational and dependent on KB’s though. He doesn’t get it off a coin flip. Context matters. And for sure on the nerfs- Geras for example should be gutted. No reason for him to have the best throws, and the best combo damage, and the best fullscreen game, and the best d1, and the best jump in, and tied with EB for best fatal blow, and a -3 cancellable 11f startup no gap all mid string, and a consistent 4 KBs a game. The dude’s insane. Keep seeing people go “don’t nerf, he’s not that bad” bullshit. Or “buff everyone to his level” then we get janky shit like Project M 3.0. Fun, but drives competitive players away.
Well everyone's is situational to be fair if you can't connect them then that will be an issue but not all of his combos lol, the guy the other night was bodying everyone without KB combos. He was doing some AMP moves with spins for sure but wasn't relying on KB's that's for sure. But I know what you mean, a lot of characters are dependent on their KB for big damage such as Raiden for example, and good luck getting that B2 back to back in a tight match against a good foe. Yeah I feel that Erron Black and Geras HAVE to be addressed some how, Sub they don't have to kill completely but he does seem strong with the votex and his 50/50 game is elite. Yeah I'd much rather see everyone more balanced than have everyone buffed lol.
 
Quite a productive outcome came out of discussing zoning. Seems like the real issue at the moment are a few bad apples defecating on the meta and archetypes altogether since they can do it all, thus they should be deleted from the game
 

GLoRToR

You're my fan if you can't stop shitposting me.
Quite a productive outcome came out of discussing zoning. Seems like the real issue at the moment are a few bad apples defecating on the meta and archetypes altogether since they can do it all, thus they should be deleted from the game
lol

I just don't think that a naked teleport should come out faster than how long it takes for a projectile to reach it midscreen.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
To repeat my point, why is Erron Black not a zoner? Or Geras? Or Jade? Or SZ? Why aren’t they examples of strong zoning? You just defined “zoner” yourself and every character you mentioned fell perfectly in line with your own definition. I always have to approach Geras and EB. And they can keep me more than half a screen away if they want to.
In my opinion, Jade can be categorized as a zoning and anti-zoning character. She is a good character with conspicuous weaknesses. However, as I have explained in one my previous posts before, Erron Black, Geras, and Sub Zero are top tier characters that can do everything very well. These characters have 50/50 mix ups, yet they are formidable from a distance too. In fact, they have access to space control options that rival those of the so-called "premier zoning characters". Sonya, for example, has a projectile that is just as good as, if not even better, than Noob's spirit ball. The same argument can be made for Cetrion's geyser versus Geras's sand trap.

Please understand that I am not complaining about tiers. I think Cetrion is a tournament viable zoning character while Noob is a solid mid tier character.
I am, however, criticizing the character designs and the information that was provided to the community on the Kombat Kasts.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
Noob teleport is very predictable . Can you ghostball then teleport get free teleport combo ?
Well sure you can play the fight bearing the teleport in mind always...but more than once I have seen Noob teleport on zoning full screen and combo big time.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
Seeing more and more of the zoning in this game...complaints from those who prefer zoning I feel like amount to just wanting it be even more oppressive than it can be in this.
Depending on who the opponent is, one's zoning can be a big advantage, and maybe moreso online too.

And yeah it can feel cheap with the teleport counter play against zoning, but that just means getting rid of the Mahvel moment from teleports at the very least while making zoning less oppressive too.
 
"Zoners" dont like how so much of the roster has a legit projectile. They want to rain down an obstacle course that most of the cast has to crawl through, then have a gtfo move for when they get close. If your character has better projectile than Sonya, she can still just shoot her projectile and knock you down then come in, so whats the point of having a better projectile.
 
Last edited: