The Zoning Academy (Mortal Kombat 11 Edition)

[Paul the Octopus]

Do you guys not think cassie’s zoning is reasonably good? I realize she is not a pure zoner, but Gross used her “low” gunshot pretty effectively during the Summit and caused a lot of near time outs.

 

[NeonGroovyGator]

I have a lot more fun playing Cetrion, Jade or Skarlet than I had with PEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEW characters on previous NRS games.
Zoning is more fun when it involves midscreen play too imo. Nothing fun for either side when the entire match is played on only one spot of the screen.
This way, it feels less turn-based and more like everyone is actively playing the game at all times.

 

[FuhnnyBonez]

I like your post. Brief humorous and precise. Thats essentially whats wrong with the big picture. Doesnt make sense to use a "zoner" with poor mixup and frames and limbs when I can just pick wang kang, boneya, blax and 5050 stagger you to sodium death while I oneupu and defecate on your zoning with my superior zoning and antizoning. Good times

 

[M2Dave]

Do you guys not think cassie’s zoning is reasonably good? I realize she is not a pure zoner, but Gross used her “low” gunshot pretty effectively during the Summit and caused a lot of near time outs.

I agree. Cassie is no pure zoning character, but Gross's zoning looked great in certain match ups, particularly versus DJT's Baraka. The low gunshot is good, but the EX up kick is excellent for side switching.

Nothing fun for either side when the entire match is played on only one spot of the screen.

You mean like right now? The best characters are also the best anti-zoning characters who are mashing low pokes and shoving their fast, safe, hit-confirmable, special-cancelable, mid strings down your throat over and over again. Mortal Kombat X is known for its monotonous offense, but at least there is a backdash with invincibility frames, armor, and strings that are neutral or plus on block.

I like your post. Brief humorous and precise. Thats essentially whats wrong with the big picture. Doesnt make sense to use a "zoner" with poor mixup and frames and limbs when I can just pick wang kang, boneya, blax and 5050 stagger you to sodium death while I oneupu and defecate on your zoning with my superior zoning and antizoning. Good times

Thank you. Well-said.

 

[ColdBoreMK23]

I feel like defense in this game was catered to keeping you close to your opponent. I said this the other day while playing a long set, I really miss wakeups from MK9 and Injustice.

At least there were options for zoners to make a decent read and wake up with a move that pushes the opponent away.

Zoners got fucked in this game, well "true" zoners. 5050 characters and rushdown clowns got better zoning.

 

[Gaxkang]

I am guessing you have never played Mortal Kombat 9.

Only against the AI for a while.

But I played Injustice 1 and 2, and MKX...and in 11 the NRS style is still around, very fast projectiles, and difficult to jump over. And chip damage/death.

 

[cavemold]

Lui kang pretty decent , Kitana is probably the best one . Scarlet works . Baraka can zone well . Frost is decent , centrion is biggest zoner kabal can be annoying zoner as well

 

[cavemold]

The recovery on Sonya's Rings is so ridiculous that she puts the traditional zoners to shame.

And her KB as well forget about her too

 

[cavemold]

There seems like there's a lot of plus or effectively plus stuff as it is heh.

And when it comes to zoning...Noob can like teleport a zoning attempt and do massive damage, that's gonna mess with the morale of any zoning I have to think.
His own zoning...seems pretty good to me really. The awkward speed of it works in his favor I guess.

Noob teleport is very predictable . Can you ghostball then teleport get free teleport combo ?

 

[FuhnnyBonez]

Noob teleport is very predictable . Can you ghostball then teleport get free teleport combo ?

Bad option no doubt, for antizoning that is. Reasoning? Not fast enough to be used on reaction and abysmal priority. You can literally hit him out of the air with a projectile as he's teleporting through the portal.

Only effective on a time machine hard read during a zoning battle. .

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

NRS has done a great job at making characters that dont fit a cookie cutter archetype but everyone wants to have these extremes. No character should be 100% about projectiles, theres plenty of long range neutral going on in the game and combos are so easily escaped/low damage that the close range has taken a bigger hit from mkx than long range

 

[FuhnnyBonez]

NRS has done a great job at making characters that dont fit a cookie cutter archetype but everyone wants to have these extremes. No character should be 100% about projectiles, theres plenty of long range neutral going on in the game and combos are so easily escaped/low damage that the close range has taken a bigger hit from mkx than long range

I come from anime games and killer instinct. I play a hybridtype "trappler". I know all about non cookie cutter archetypes.

The general premise was not zoning diversity nor projectiles. We were discussing bad design with poor reasoning.

Along the lines of why is a rushdown character able to antizone me...out range me...and do what im supposed to do better at my optimal range.

Or why give an antizoner a command grab. Just hypothetical examples...not actual specifics. It all seems whimsical and slapped on. Design choices that make you question the studios actual FG knowledge.

 

[GLoRToR]

I feel like Injustice 2 had dominant zoning and now zoners kinda suffer from everyone having either a teleport or a broke ass F4 or any other tool that makes zoning kinda meh.

 

[FuhnnyBonez]

I feel like Injustice 2 had dominant zoning and now zoners kinda suffer from everyone having either a teleport or a broke ass F4 or any other tool that makes zoning kinda meh.

Zoners usually vary. (Traps, projectile, long limbs teleports etc)but the key component remains...range.

Alot of these so called zoners in this game cant sustain range because either their limbs are bad or their tools (specials) designed to enforce space control have horrendous frames and priority that require specific setups to even use safely or at least effectively.

 

[M2Dave]

NRS has done a great job at making characters that dont fit a cookie cutter archetype but everyone wants to have these extremes. No character should be 100% about projectiles, theres plenty of long range neutral going on in the game and combos are so easily escaped/low damage that the close range has taken a bigger hit from mkx than long range

If close range characters have taken such a big hit, why are all the characters with the best mix ups (i.e., Erron Black, Geras, Jacqui, Sonya, Sub Zero) considered S tier while the zoning characters (i.e., Cetrion, Noob) are not?

I would also argue that Mortal Kombat 11 gives you less defensive options than Mortal Kombat X as long as you are standing considering there are no armor moves and backdashes have no invincibility frames.

 

[GLoRToR]

Zoners usually vary. (Traps, projectile, long limbs teleports etc)but the key component remains...range.

Alot of these so called zoners in this game cant sustain range because either their limbs are bad or their tools (specials) designed to enforce space control have horrendous frames and priority that require specific setups to even use safely or at least effectively.

It's funny because Jade has a projectile immunity move that's not immune to every projectile AND is -44 just for activating it for 12 frames so the opponent has 56 frames to blow you up.

 

[FuhnnyBonez]

It's funny because Jade has a projectile immunity move that's not immune to every projectile AND is -44 just for activating it for 12 frames so the opponent has 56 frames to blow you up.

That is just wrong on so many levels. For starters, why certain projectiles and not others? Like...what is the reasoning? Is it that projectile properties are at play? Or is it your moves properties?

And the frames are a joke. Whats so powerful about this move that it requires exposing yourself to such high risk?

 

[GLoRToR]

That is just wrong on so many levels. For starters, why certain projectiles and not others? Like...what is the reasoning? Is it that projectile properties are at play? Or is it your moves properties?

And the frames are a joke. Whats so powerful about this move that it requires exposing yourself to such high risk?

Ask any Jade upplayer they'll explain how good this move is.

 

[Wrath0594]

Why do people think Noob is a zoner? Isn’t his projectile an 18 frame high with no amp? And his only other one is a slow mid. What makes you want to sit fullscreen with him? I think Cetrion and Skarlet are “zoners”, not Noob. He’s a character with zoning tools. And he’s had some tourney results.

Also, someone said the zoners have “bad limbs.” Ah, I forgot how bad Skarlet f2 and b4 were. And how “bad” Noob’s b1 and d4 were. Silly me. Wtf even?

Idk what this thread is supposed to be anymore. Rename it “I wish I could sit fullscreen using X character, but I keep getting outskilled.” Or move on to a new thread titled “Nerf Geras, Erron, and Sonya” and I’ll be on board supporting it. Nerf SZ’s iceball travel speed too. He can keep the mixups, he doesn’t need to combo when his projectile trades with 14f projectiles.

But again, top tiers are stupid. Has nothing to do with zoning tools. One could turn it around and argue the top tiers are in fact the best zoners even. Geras sandtrap is technically a zoning tool! As is Erron guns and scudshot. Sonya rings and turret drop. SZ iceball and axes too. All of them can play a mean fullscreen game. Why have we decided Noob’s shitty ghostball makes him a “zoner”, but these characters can’t be “zoners”? Who decides they’re “antizoners”? It’s completely arbitrary.

 

[JTC]

Or why give an antizoner a command grab. Just hypothetical examples...not actual specifics. It all seems whimsical and slapped on. Design choices that make you question the studios actual FG knowledge.

This.

Ive always wondered what the thought process is when designing these character. A lot of the characters have moves slapped in without any sort of cohesion, although there are a few exceptions. It seems like they just thought up whatever move thats cool and just throw it in there. We then end up with characters having useless ass moves wondering wtf is the point of it.

 

[M2Dave]

But again, top tiers are stupid. Has nothing to do with zoning tools. One could turn it around and argue the top tiers are in fact the best zoners even. Geras sandtrap is technically a zoning tool! As is Erron guns and scudshot. Sonya rings and turret drop. SZ iceball and axes too. All of them can play a mean fullscreen game. Why have we decided Noob’s shitty ghostball makes him a “zoner”, but these characters can’t be “zoners”? Who decides they’re “antizoners”? It’s completely arbitrary.

Noob was labeled a "premier zoning character" on the Kombat Kast. I agree with your main point, though. Archetypes have no meaning in this game because the top tier characters do everything very well. I suppose Cetrion is technically the best traditional zoning character while Scorpion is the best anti-zoning and space control character.

 

[Wrath0594]

Noob was labeled a "premier zoning character" on the Kombat Kast. I agree with your main point, though. Archetypes have no meaning in this game because the top tier characters do everything very well. I suppose Cetrion is technically the best traditional zoning character while Scorpion is the best anti-zoning and space control character.

Yeah, like my whole thing is if you see Noob lose to Geras on the flip side one could say “Wow, Geras really outzoned him!”

I think it’s important to specify what our definition of a zoner is. I think of it as a character with mutliple options that encourage you to be fullscreen, and one of the best markers of this are fullscreen frame traps. This definition is somewhat based on MKX Balanced Kenshi. It accurately describes Skarlet and Cetrion here as well.

Like I don’t consider Liu Kang, Johnny, or Cassie zoners when they only have 1 option from fullscreen and it isn’t really based on space control. I guess Raiden could be a zoner just because of his diagonal lightning encouraging space control, albeit he’s a fucking terrible zoner. Jade and Erron also fit the definition perfectly. Sonya, Frost, and Jax I’d say make the cut. Past that, I don’t see a lot of characters I’d call “zoners”. Maybe Kabal? Idk enough about Kollector. But we can’t just call anyone that we happen to main a zoner because they have one projectile, and everyone we lose to an antizoner.

 

[MKF30]

I like zoning with Sonya, but she's also strong up close. Which is rare to see within one character. I do hope Terminator, Fujin and if the cyber ninjas make it. Sektor are all zone heavy.

 

[JTC]

Why do people think Noob is a zoner?

NRS themselves said so. Yes i was confused too.

 

[Wrath0594]

NRS themselves said so. Yes i was confused too.

Fuck the kombat kasts. They were full of nonsense. No one should be basing their opinion of the meta or how to play characters based on those. Day 1 hopping in game, anyone with their own eyes can look at Noob and his frame data and make a judgement for themselves.

Having explored and labbed a lot of the cast, if I step back and approach the game thinking “Which character is going to give me the best fullscreen options?” It’s going to be Cetrion, Skarlet, and Erron, and they’re all strong as fuck. Zoning’s fine. We gotta define terms to get anywhere.