The Top 10 Characters.

[MKF30]

NPO- Superman, Batman, Black Adam, Aquaman, WonderWoman, Green Lantern, Flash, Batgirl, Killer Frost, Doomsday.

lol in other words the Justice League=top tier

 

[Qwark28]

She does. DD is also an other possible 7-3. Plus she has a load of 4-6s as well.

Also the fact that qwark didnt mention b23 as one of her best strings makes me wonder how much he actually knows about Raven. Most of us agree that is her best string.

when you need a fast advancing string you will not go to b23, most ppl want the 3 of b23 to hit since it has a huge hitbox.

f22 is faster, longer reach and hit confirmable for a combo, the only use for b23 is a combo ender for fullscreen trait zoning

 

[Qwark28]

Don't care what KDZ purportedly said.

Superman beats Doomsday... badly. Even worse than BA does. Superman will keep on doing so as long as his float-standing animation causes the second hit of ES to whiff at max distance.. and gives Superman a free 40-68% punish.

Also Superman's f23 outranges Doomsday's d1 by a considerable distance.

SonicBoomBrad

he doesnt lose to superman worse than BA and when superman doesnt have trait its ex venom all day.

 

[GGA Max]

No one is proficient enough with all fighters to answer this.

People might be basing this off the bad mus that their main two characters have. Bleh.

 

[Zoidberg747]

when you need a fast advancing string you will not go to b23, most ppl want the 3 of b23 to hit since it has a huge hitbox.

f22 is faster, longer reach and hit confirmable for a combo, the only use for b23 is a combo ender for fullscreen trait zoning

You are wrong.

F22 is a good string but it leaves her at neutral right in the opponents face. This is not ideal for a Raven.

B23 is better for a variety of reasons. First off, b2 has just as much range and is also hit confirmable. Yes it is slower but it sets up so much more. We do NOT want the 3 to hit unless it is a combo ender. If they block the 3 they are pushed back and we are only at -1. If you link lift off of a b23 it counts as a full blockstring, the trick is that the lift comes out half a second after the 3. So if your opponent tries to do anything after the string, they will be full combo'd. Once you get them to respect this, you can either dash and grab, jump in, f222, or backdash to setup more zoning footsies.

You also listed 223 as one of her best strings, which is again wrong. There is a large frame gap between the 2nd 2 and the 3 which can be d1'd by a lot of the cast. Once people learn the MU this string will not be used often.

 

[SonicBoomBrad]

he doesnt lose to superman worse than BA and when superman doesnt have trait its ex venom all day.

He doesn't lose to Black Adam at all. It's 5-5. As of right now, Superman-Doomsday is not winnable. 7-3 easy. The gap in damage output, not being able to use trait, and Superman's zoning being as good as it is completely dominate that match up.

@EMPEROR_THEO

 

[Qwark28]

You are wrong.

F22 is a good string but it leaves her at neutral right in the opponents face. This is not ideal for a Raven.

B23 is better for a variety of reasons. First off, b2 has just as much range and is also hit confirmable. Yes it is slower but it sets up so much more. We do NOT want the 3 to hit unless it is a combo ender. If they block the 3 they are pushed back and we are only at -1. If you link lift off of a b23 it counts as a full blockstring, the trick is that the lift comes out half a second after the 3. So if your opponent tries to do anything after the string, they will be full combo'd. Once you get them to respect this, you can either dash and grab, jump in, f222, or backdash to setup more zoning footsies.

You also listed 223 as one of her best strings, which is again wrong. There is a large frame gap between the 2nd 2 and the 3 which can be d1'd by a lot of the cast. Once people learn the MU this string will not be used often.

re-read my post, i said 223 is a pretty bad string...

b2 is not hit confirmable. and doesnt have as much range as f22, go into training mode and look for yourself.

if you read your opponent will do anything after b23 then its going to be either a dash or jump, you can deal with both.

theres something very wrong with your opponents if you think you can dash in and grab people, jump and backdash with people not reacting, a half decent opponent will always react to every one of those except f22.

if you wanna go in with an advancing string that means you're making a read, otherwise i dont see why youd just press buttons and throw out normals for nothing. F22 is just fine.

 

[Vintagesoul]

he doesnt lose to superman worse than BA and when superman doesnt have trait its ex venom all day.

Ex Venom... and then what? Superman blocks one ES and then it's DD's turn to start blocking f23 loops... Plus DD is now out of meter.

The truth is, DD only has 2 ways to get in that don't involve running into f23- Ex Venom and j3 (not jd3). One uses meter, and the other isn't something you can use all the time.

Superman controls the match up with f23. That in itself might not be so bad. What truly seals the deal is the damage outputs- every touch by Superman easily does double the damage that DD would do off a touch.

Throw in the fact that Superman gets to randomly punish Earthshaker on block... and it becomes a worse than 7-3 match up.

 

[Qwark28]

He doesn't lose to Black Adam at all. It's 5-5. As of right now, Superman-Doomsday is not winnable. 7-3 easy. The gap in damage output, not being able to use trait, and Superman's zoning being as good as it is completely dominate that match up.

@EMPEROR_THEO

how does he not lose to black adam? i have been playing vs doomsday since week -1 of the game literally, this matchup is not even and never will be. I had explained the matchup over 3 pages in the PL props thread but noone listens and every damn doomsday throws out a different number.

supermans zoning is overrated and you can tell it is when ppl still get hit with MB lasers and still do stupid shit against him. trait is not everything for doomsday and is not even essential to his gameplay, losing it is bad but not a huge deal and you can bait his trait activation since it recovers in 21 frames,

 

[Zoidberg747]

re-read my post, i said 223 is a pretty bad string...

b2 is not hit confirmable. and doesnt have as much range as f22, go into training mode and look for yourself.

if you read your opponent will do anything after b23 then its going to be either a dash or jump, you can deal with both.

theres something very wrong with your opponents if you think you can dash in and grab people, jump and backdash with people not reacting, a half decent opponent will always react to every one of those except f22.

if you wanna go in with an advancing string that means you're making a read, otherwise i dont see why youd just press buttons and throw out normals for nothing. F22 is just fine.

You dash in and grab after you make them respect the lift. It is called conditioning.

Sure certain characters can deal with backdash, but I can also just start walking back to setup my footsie game. (Which btw, I want people to react too, as I can punish with either a soul crush or full combo)

And if you think b23 leads to nothing, I dont think you have seen Ravens full potential. F22 is a great string, but it is not her ONLY good string, and it also has its downsides(leaves you in opponents face, for example)

 

[Qwark28]

You dash in and grab after you make them respect the lift. It is called conditioning.

Sure certain characters can deal with backdash, but I can also just start walking back to setup my footsie game. (Which btw, I want people to react too, as I can punish with either a soul crush or full combo)

And if you think b23 leads to nothing, I dont think you have seen Ravens full potential. F22 is a great string, but it is not her ONLY good string, and it also has its downsides(leaves you in opponents face, for example)

i didnt say b23 leads to nothing, stop putting words in my mouth yet again.

dash in and grab is, again, not viable. you can react to dashes with blockstrings and even full combos. this is stuff that was known from day 1 of the demo.

certain characters? almost everyone can move on reaction to your backdash.

 

[Zoidberg747]

i didnt say b23 leads to nothing, stop putting words in my mouth yet again.

dash in and grab is, again, not viable. you can react to dashes with blockstrings and even full combos. this is stuff that was known from day 1 of the demo.

certain characters? almost everyone can move on reaction to your backdash.

Again, not a backdash, back walk. If you move I soul crush.

You obviously have your way of playing the character, I have mine. Let's leave it at that.

 

[sling1414]

They're decent mids but I find the other 20 better than those 10 xD. I was honestly on the fence with bane but his frame traps are sexy.
I honestly think Zatanna is bottom 5, maybe even bottom 3 right now. She's pretty easy to open up and her strings are really slow.

Ya as of right now Zatanna is looking pretty garbage, i would honestly say Lobo and Shazam are looking better than her which is weird cuz Lobo is one of her good MU's lol

Now it is very early and theres a good chance we just haven't figured her out yet but as of this moment ya she seems pretty damn bad lol

 

[Qwark28]

Ex Venom... and then what? Superman blocks one ES and then it's DD's turn to start blocking f23 loops... Plus DD is now out of meter.

The truth is, DD only has 2 ways to get in that don't involve running into f23- Ex Venom and j3 (not jd3). One uses meter, and the other isn't something you can use all the time.

Superman controls the match up with f23. That in itself might not be so bad. What truly seals the deal is the damage outputs- every touch by Superman easily does double the damage that DD would do off a touch.

Throw in the fact that Superman gets to randomly punish Earthshaker on block... and it becomes a worse than 7-3 match up.

since when is DD out of meter? are we throwing around random stuff here?

earth shake is -1 on block, DDs d1 is 7f, basic frame data.. how is superman starting his pressure when DD can

D1 shake
Backdash
Armour

The truth is, DD blocks one laser and he gets his huge dash and he's in your face, the truth is that while you play with your F23's range DD outranges it with F2 and he's in. Also, JD3s in this game have huge priority, I have stuffed a large amount of moves with it.

D1 shake is not done all day long after MB venom, a DD who is predictable with his shake is a scrubby DD and good DDs space themselves well since this char is all about spacing.

 

[NY_Jailhouse]

Eveyone make a list, the thread!

Mmh, aquaman, superman, black Adam, zod

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Batman, wonderwoman, killer frost, doomsday, flash

 

[Qwark28]

Again, not a backdash, back walk. If you move I soul crush.

You obviously have your way of playing the character, I have mine. Let's leave it at that.

I was replying to your backdash statement.

There is 'way" of playing the character, most of what you described doesn't work vs solid opposition, it might work once or twice but that's it. This is a debate about matchups, if you don't want to argue in an arguement don't get involved in it.

 

[RiBBz22]

Cool id really like that

From the frosts I've played I feel MU is 6-4 or 5-5 minimum but I really need I play yours

I beat some frosts recently 25-3but they are not you in any way so we gotta help each other

We have to play sometime soon. I put the game down for a while, but I am back and want to play better players.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I was replying to your backdash statement.

There is 'way" of playing the character, most of what you described doesn't work vs solid opposition, it might work once or twice but that's it. This is a debate about matchups, if you don't want to argue in an arguement don't get involved in it.

And I said instead of backdash I back walk.

Most of what I described is mind games. Of course they dont work on everyone, but if it works on someone why would I not abuse it?

I dont want to argue with you because you are obviously not going to change your POV, so what point is there in me arguing with you?

 

[SonicBoomBrad]

how does he not lose to black adam? i have been playing vs doomsday since week -1 of the game literally, this matchup is not even and never will be. I had explained the matchup over 3 pages in the PL props thread but noone listens and every damn doomsday throws out a different number.

supermans zoning is overrated and you can tell it is when ppl still get hit with MB lasers and still do stupid shit against him. trait is not everything for doomsday and is not even essential to his gameplay, losing it is bad but not a huge deal and you can bait his trait activation since it recovers in 21 frames,

Because with good reads Adam becomes very predictable. And he has no way to get Doomsday off of him once he's in. The only thing that is really difficult about that match up is Adam's mobility. But as long as you have good reads you can win. This is not the case with Superman.

Anyone who says Superman's zoning is overrated has not played against a good enough Superman. What's overrated about it? The fact that it has no recovery? The fact that if you block a high laser he's +20? The fact that if he meter burns in and you block the pushback still pushes you almost a full dash range back? The fact that if you get hit with a laser at any point he can meter burn it and send you back full screen? I seriously don't understand why people think his zoning isn't that good. Maybe it's because KDZ went on a rant about how it was mediocre because he never really uses it. I played against Theo every week. Theo is THE zoning Superman. I know how good his zoning is.

Let's say he burns trait for no reason randomly and I activate, it's very easy for him to keep me out with lasers even if he doesn't have trait and I do just by meter burning his and air dashing. Meaning I'm still very reliant on reads and spacing even when he DOESN'T have trait. Give him trait and it's a whole different game. Sure I can burn trait to make him burn his, but my 15 second cooldown vs his 6-7 second cooldown or whatever it is isn't worth the trade. Let's say I just completely forget about trait . Then he's free to MB laser any time I try to venom and push me full screen. And even if I do get in and knock him down, he has about 4 different wake ups all with different punish ranges on them. Now repeat that about 10-12 times without getting hit more than 4 and you win the match. Yeah, that sounds possible.

 

[Qwark28]

And I said instead of backdash I back walk.

Most of what I described is mind games. Of course they dont work on everyone, but if it works on someone why would I not abuse it?

I dont want to argue with you because you are obviously not going to change your POV, so what point is there in me arguing with you?

I didn't reply to that, back walking is a fine option.

What you described are reactable things.

I told you that they were reactable, i analysed the moves and the scenarios and you went on with other things, am i supposed to drop the convo too?

 

[THTB]

Damn it, Dave.

Damn it, Dave.

Italicizing your posts...it makes whatever you previously said 100x funnier.

 

[Name v.5.0]

I really dont understand why you guys think Aquaman is top 5. His uphill battles against Supes, BA, and GL are enough to keep him out.


Top 5 (NPO): Superman, Black Adam, Wonder Woman, Flash, and Batman

6-10 (NPO): Aquaman, Green Lantern, Zod, Batgirl, MMH

 

[Qwark28]

Because with good reads Adam becomes very predictable. And he has no way to get Doomsday off of him once he's in. The only thing that is really difficult about that match up is Adam's mobility. But as long as you have good reads you can win. This is not the case with Superman.

Anyone who says Superman's zoning is overrated has not played against a good enough Superman. What's overrated about it? The fact that it has no recovery? The fact that if you block a high laser he's +20? The fact that if he meter burns in and you block the pushback still pushes you almost a full dash range back? The fact that if you get hit with a laser at any point he can meter burn it and send you back full screen? I seriously don't understand why people think his zoning isn't that good. Maybe it's because KDZ went on a rant about how it was mediocre because he never really uses it. I played against Theo every week. Theo is THE zoning Superman. I know how good his zoning is.

Let's say he burns trait for no reason randomly and I activate, it's very easy for him to keep me out with lasers even if he doesn't have trait and I do just by meter burning his and air dashing. Meaning I'm still very reliant on reads and spacing even when he DOESN'T have trait. Give him trait and it's a whole different game. Sure I can burn trait to make him burn his, but my 15 second cooldown vs his 6-7 second cooldown or whatever it is isn't worth the trade. Let's say I just completely forget about trait . Then he's free to MB laser any time I try to venom and push me full screen. And even if I do get in and knock him down, he has about 4 different wake ups all with different punish ranges on them. Now repeat that about 10-12 times without getting hit more than 4 and you win the match. Yeah, that sounds possible.

Ill talk to you on live because i dont think you understand supermans zoning when youre still talking about blocking high lasers.

 

[THTB]

Ex Venom... and then what? Superman blocks one ES

WHY THE FUCK DOES EVERYONE THINK DD HAS TO DO ES AFTER D1???????

He doesn't. If he knows you're expecting d1, he doesn't even have to do d1. He can simply do something else.

 

[Zatoichi]

It's easy who the top 10 are:

Superman
Batman
Black Adam
Green Lantern
Aquaman
Flash
Killer Frost
Wonder Woman
Nightwing
Catwoman