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The Tierlist is ALMOST Correct

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
It is senseless though. If the community for some reason decided Sheeva was the best, would that change anything? No, it wouldn't. No one would suddenly pick her up because other people think she's the best. This community puts entirely too much stock in tier lists, it's very weird and kinda annoying. Tier lists are meaningless. Any character can win at any given moment. And when a low tier character wins, people think that character is somehow magically top 10 or better than they were. No, that isn't how tier lists work. Tier lists are based on match-ups on paper. They do not factor in player ability at all. Kabal is #1 based on his match-ups, that doesn't mean he can't lose. It also doesn't mean if Stryker beats him, that Stryker is better. The MK9 community doesn't seem to realize that.
The only thing to realize here

Player > Character
 
What the holy hell? This was created today and already 12 pages? Oh, the lactation going on in my shirt :D
Preserve, freeze, special ice cream, enjoy. Cows can't hold a candle to humans.

MITDJT
Try learning to feed from the underestimation of Liu Kang. Let it fuel your power and dedication!

*Long good post*
Just pick a character you like, shut up, level up and go kick some ass already.
That makes a lot of sense. As STB Espio taught me a long time ago; players who use their favorite characters tend to do better than players who see a top character and think that they could win with the aforementioned top character.
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
Matchup numbers are irrelevant. X player using Y character to win Z tournament matters.

Anyone picking up the game at this stage will look at threads like this, pick up kabal or kenshi and make do with that, if they cant win they will probably just go cry to Tekken Tag 2 or something instead of coming here for a juicy argument.
 

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
People, stop derailing tier list threads with this player > character bullshit. OF COURSE tier lists arent going to help you win. However, they are an excellent barometer for how the game has developed over time, and they are essentially a staple for any fighting game that has ever existed.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I'm wondering if, to accurately prove all the MU numbers, you'd need a player at the level of dedication and skill or a REO or Pig for each character to really showcase playing them at the highest level.

I think 16 Bit hit the nail on the head when he said that a lot of characters are likely being played at 7/10 of their full potential. Many matchups have not been explored to their fullest.

Also we see MU numbers changing every few months due to tech and playstyle evolution.

And consider that if a matchup is actually in between 6-4 and 5-5, you cannot be 'correct' by calling it 6-4 or 5-5.. Reality doesn't work completely in whole numbers.

This is a fuzzy science at best.. There can be no perfect tier list, and everyone will never agree 100% as long as the game is still living, breathing, and evolving. Which to me, is a great thing :)
 

Tom Brady

Champion
I'm wondering if, to accurately prove all the MU numbers, you'd need a player at the level of dedication and skill or a REO or Pig for each character to really showcase playing them at the highest level.

I think 16 Bit hit the nail on the head when he said that a lot of characters are likely being played at 7/10 of their full potential. Many matchups have not been explored to their fullest.

Also we see MU numbers changing every few months due to tech and playstyle evolution.

And consider that if a matchup is actually in between 6-4 and 5-5, you cannot be 'correct' by calling it 6-4 or 5-5.. Reality doesn't work completely in whole numbers.

This is a fuzzy science at best.. There can be no perfect tier list, and everyone will never agree 100% as long as the game is still living, breathing, and evolving. Which to me, is a great thing :)
This comment is ridiculous...

dude... REALLY? we need reo or pig to play cage or kitana because guys like dizzy and 16bit just dont cut the mustard? pig needs to pick up cyrax because guys like maxter and denzell just cant play the character at its full potential?

and before you even defend yourself just know that saying " wondering if, to accurately prove all the MU numbers, you'd need a player at the level of dedication and skill or a REO or Pig for each character to really showcase playing them at the highest level." means that NO ONE besides 2 players in the community play the game at its highest level. several of us play the game at the highest level and have the characters progressing to that point. Dont tell a lot of these guys that they need pig or reo to play their character.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
Low hitboxes kill Sonya more than they kill KL.

KL will be poked/uppercutted at worst, Sonya will be full comboed, by everybody.
But I'm the only player I know that has ever punished Sonyas strings that way. Its just the same as punishing Jaxs strings, but easier.

WAKE UP TYM!
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
This comment is ridiculous...

dude... REALLY? we need reo or pig to play cage or kitana because guys like dizzy and 16bit just dont cut the mustard? pig needs to pick up cyrax because guys like maxter and denzell just cant play the character at its full potential?

and before you even defend yourself just know that saying " wondering if, to accurately prove all the MU numbers, you'd need a player at the level of dedication and skill or a REO or Pig for each character to really showcase playing them at the highest level." means that NO ONE besides 2 players in the community play the game at its highest level. several of us play the game at the highest level and have the characters progressing to that point. Dont tell a lot of these guys that they need pig or reo to play their character.
I didn't say those were the only two players playing at that level. Those are only two examples. I said "A player at the level of dedication of.." which obviously means anyone at a similar level to the guys listed.

16 Bit already said in this thread that he feels he's playing Kitana at 7/10 out of her max potential, and that many characters are not completely explored. So you can blow him up for that, not me.

You need to actually read my posts before blowing me up, haha.. Because you're starting to wild out after only getting like 50% of the info.

Easy there, young padiwan :)
 

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
Low hitboxes kill Sonya more than they kill KL.

KL will be poked/uppercutted at worst, Sonya will be full comboed, by everybody.
But I'm the only player I know that has ever punished Sonyas strings that way. Its just the same as punishing Jaxs strings, but easier.

WAKE UP TYM!
Since when does Sonya use pressure strings? The days of 114~ms are long gone.
 

Death

Warrior
Low hitboxes kill Sonya more than they kill KL.

KL will be poked/uppercutted at worst, Sonya will be full comboed, by everybody.
But I'm the only player I know that has ever punished Sonyas strings that way. Its just the same as punishing Jaxs strings, but easier.

WAKE UP TYM!
This.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
I'm wondering if, to accurately prove all the MU numbers, you'd need a player at the level of dedication and skill or a REO or Pig for each character to really showcase playing them at the highest level.

I think 16 Bit hit the nail on the head when he said that a lot of characters are likely being played at 7/10 of their full potential. Many matchups have not been explored to their fullest.

Also we see MU numbers changing every few months due to tech and playstyle evolution.

And consider that if a matchup is actually in between 6-4 and 5-5, you cannot be 'correct' by calling it 6-4 or 5-5.. Reality doesn't work completely in whole numbers.

This is a fuzzy science at best.. There can be no perfect tier list, and everyone will never agree 100% as long as the game is still living, breathing, and evolving. Which to me, is a great thing :)
This comment is ridiculous...

dude... REALLY? we need reo or pig to play cage or kitana because guys like dizzy and 16bit just dont cut the mustard? pig needs to pick up cyrax because guys like maxter and denzell just cant play the character at its full potential?

and before you even defend yourself just know that saying " wondering if, to accurately prove all the MU numbers, you'd need a player at the level of dedication and skill or a REO or Pig for each character to really showcase playing them at the highest level." means that NO ONE besides 2 players in the community play the game at its highest level. several of us play the game at the highest level and have the characters progressing to that point. Dont tell a lot of these guys that they need pig or reo to play their character.
LBSH...nobody plays any character at their highest level. they may be the best player for that character but humans are flawed and therefore they cannot be considered the highest possible level. They are the highest level among humans but that isnt what can consider a MU number. Reo drops combos in every tournament, pig misses opportunities for big damage sometimes.

Sometimes pig is unbeatable, but sometimes he makes stupid mistakes. Not to mention his opponent would have to be of equal skill and state of mind in order for any MU number to be determined...that will never happen. Human nature makes using tournament results for MU numbers completely incorrect. The only way to look at MU numbers is to take the human out of the picture, take execution errors out, and only look at tools compared between two characters.
 

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
She cant win a game with D4 alone, divekicks are full combo punishable. You've got to use a string at some point, its not just 114 either, its every single string she has. 1 mistake against some characters is pretty damaging. Also, people need to actually punish the Ex Cartwheel
Dude, I know you know how to play Sonya. Only shit Sonyas throw out EX cartwheel and divekick randomly.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
When people realize they are not playing at the highest posible level, and egos go away, only then can you keep getting better.

All this nonsense about "several of us play the game at the highest level and have the characters progressing to that point." (Tom Brady) Needs to STOP. I am not there. None of you are there. None of you will ever be there.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
LBSH...nobody plays any character at their highest level. they may be the best player for that character but humans are flawed and therefore they cannot be considered the highest possible level. They are the highest level among humans but that isnt what can consider a MU number. Reo drops combos in every tournament, pig misses opportunities for big damage sometimes.

Sometimes pig is unbeatable, but sometimes he makes stupid mistakes. Not to mention his opponent would have to be of equal skill and state of mind in order for any MU number to be determined...that will never happen. Human nature makes using tournament results for MU numbers completely incorrect. The only way to look at MU numbers is to take the human out of the picture, take execution errors out, and only look at tools compared between two characters.
I think 'the highest level' doesn't mean "never ever makes a single mistake"... It just means that, on the whole, you're playing the character about as well as humanly possible.

Tools are critical, but tech/strategies are what turn tools into winning/losing advantages/disadvantages.. And that is why matchup charts generally evolve alongside specific players, and will continue to do so as long as players continue to improve their games.
 

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
More like almost every time the opponent jumps.

I haven't seen many Kenshis outside of Pig, Blackula, Michaelangelo, and Forever King, but Blackula is the only Kenshi I see that actually does AA 21 combos with Kenshi.

Not trying to put you on blast Pig, just saying. :p
Blackula is also the only Kenshi I see that loses to Kitana.
 

Chuckychuck

Warrior
Low hitboxes kill Sonya more than they kill KL.

KL will be poked/uppercutted at worst, Sonya will be full comboed, by everybody.
But I'm the only player I know that has ever punished Sonyas strings that way. Its just the same as punishing Jaxs strings, but easier.

WAKE UP TYM!
Expose her, make vid pls