The Problem With Deadshot

[kabelfritz]

all discussion aside, i see more and more videos of deadshots losing surfacing. and those are not random deadshots, but sonic fox's (vs honeybees flash), Tekkenmaster's (vs kings darkseid) and p2w's (vs steves grodd).

so, can we please stahp, just for a little, and play this out? please?

for your enjoyment:

 

[RoboCop]

Isn't Blue Beetle poop?

He's wonky, but I don't know if he's poop. His projectile is basically Deadshot's Wrist Shot, but only -3 instead of -9. Up close, he's got very solid pokes and normals thanks to his trait. I think he's just harder to use than a lot of characters, so you don't see him wrecking shit as much.

 

[RoboCop]

Also a lot of wake ups in this game are killed by meaty attacks. Test it out.

People spend more time calling for nerfs than actually trying to learn the game.

Tested already. Works on a lot of other characters' wakeups, but not Deadshot. Cheetah can even d3 under poor Darkseid's knee, but not Deadshot.

 

[SaltShaker]

all discussion aside, i see more and more videos of deadshots losing surfacing. and those are not random deadshots, but sonic fox's (vs honeybees flash), Tekkenmaster's (vs kings darkseid) and p2w's (vs steves grodd).

so, can we please stahp, just for a little, and play this out? please?

for your enjoyment:

I'll just be using this post as my default response going forward.

 

[Espio]

He's wonky, but I don't know if he's poop. His projectile is basically Deadshot's Wrist Shot, but only -3 instead of -9. Up close, he's got very solid pokes and normals thanks to his trait. I think he's just harder to use than a lot of characters, so you don't see him wrecking shit as much.

Except Deadshot's recovery on straight shot is better. Blue legit gets outzoned by Deadshot currently. Sometimes if you have a lifelead you can contest him much more at full screen, but even if Deadshot's straight shot was equal, Deadshot still has projectiles that cover so many different ranges and places. I don't wanna compare too much cause I'm not complaining about Deadshot.

I think Blue Beetle is solid, but I keep seeing people trying to make him seem like his zoning options are equal to Deadshot's but they aren't.

I'm not salty about Deadshot or saying Blue Beetle needs anything mind you.

I'd also like to agree and say that people that cannot even do his float cancels or get them consistently are claiming Blue Beetle is poop so I wouldn't take anything coming from that camp too seriously. If you don't have good spacing, a good grasp of float and his stagger/pressure game then he is definitely lul for sure.

 

[Branden Delio]

Ivy has a garbage back dash, 20f D2 that's punishable on block, no 50/50s and she doesn't do his damage. He has better mobility than her, better zoning, better wakeup.

And who cares if it's a high? It's 8f and has the reach of the heavens. It being a high just opens up his way to land a b2 even easier since people will be looking to duck f1.

Come on bro does he really need that damage? Lol

But she has a half screen or more overhead that leads to full combo and some of the bst counter zoning. Stahp

 

[Branden Delio]

Except Deadshot's recovery on straight shot is better. Blue legit gets outzoned by Deadshot currently. Sometimes if you have a lifelead you can contest him much more at full screen, but even if Deadshot's straight shot was equal, Deadshot still has projectiles that cover so many different ranges and places. I don't wanna compare too much cause I'm not complaining about Deadshot.

I think Blue Beetle is solid, but I keep seeing people trying to make him seem like his zoning options are equal to Deadshot's but they aren't.

I'm not salty about Deadshot or saying Blue Beetle needs anything mind you.

I'd also like to agree and say that people that cannot even do his float cancels or get them consistently are claiming Blue Beetle is poop so I wouldn't take anything coming from that camp too seriously. If you don't have good spacing, a good grasp of float and his stagger/pressure game then he is definitely lul for sure.

This

 

[Wam-Zlay]

Good gameplan against deadshot

1. Pick grodd
2. Crouch
3. Wait for leap
4. Reset and kill

 

[RoboCop]

Except Deadshot's recovery on straight shot is better. Blue legit gets outzoned by Deadshot currently. Sometimes if you have a lifelead you can contest him much more at full screen, but even if Deadshot's straight shot was equal, Deadshot still has projectiles that cover so many different ranges and places. I don't wanna compare too much cause I'm not complaining about Deadshot.

I think Blue Beetle is solid, but I keep seeing people trying to make him seem like his zoning options are equal to Deadshot's but they aren't.

I'm not salty about Deadshot or saying Blue Beetle needs anything mind you.

I'd also like to agree and say that people that cannot even do his float cancels or get them consistently are claiming Blue Beetle is poop so I wouldn't take anything coming from that camp too seriously. If you don't have good spacing, a good grasp of float and his stagger/pressure game then he is definitely lul for sure.

I dunno, BB's starts up in 14 as opposed to 11, but is only -3 on block as opposed to -9. They seem to have the same recovery. BB's also do about 12 more damage and are slower, allowing him to put 2 on screen at once. I'd say if BB's isn't actually better that they're close enough to be equally-powered.

But you're right that that's only part of what makes Deadshot an amazing zoner. No db3 or db2 for BB.

 

[Reauxbot]

This thread is a good reminder on how bad TYM has become.

There are solid points to everyone's "complaints" though...
don't be toxic

 

[Branden Delio]

I dunno, BB's starts up in 14 as opposed to 11, but is only -3 on block as opposed to -9. They seem to have the same recovery. BB's also do about 12 more damage and are slower, allowing him to put 2 on screen at once. I'd say if BB's isn't actually better that they're close enough to be equally-powered.

But you're right that that's only part of what makes Deadshot an amazing zoner. No db3 or db2 for BB.

Ok but bb has one projectile and it's a high vs all of deadshots zoning options it's not even close. Sure there high projectiles are similar cool story enough about blue beetle you don't know what you're talking about. Go play the match up against a good ds

 

[Branden Delio]

Shit even batmans zoning is better than blue beetle so just stahp.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Good gameplan against deadshot

1. Pick grodd
2. Crouch
3. Wait for leap
4. Reset and kill

I'm not convinced this will keep working against a DS who knows the MU. A gentle breeze knocks Grodd out of leap. Once they figure out the mechanics of leap, it'll be damn hard for Grodd to get in.

 

[xKhaoTik]

But she has a half screen or more overhead that leads to full combo and some of the bst counter zoning. Stahp

But I'm not complaining about Ivy tho.

I never said her zoning was bad and I know she has a gdlk overhead

People need to learn how to read before posting lol

 

[RoboCop]

That's the thing, both sides have valid concerns. It is early in the game's life and normally I'd be reluctant to even mention buffs or nerfs, let alone make an entire thread about a problem character. But these are legit concerns that I haven't seen a single Deadshot defender refute. It's not that "you're wrong, his up close game isn't amazing", it's "nerf-happy crybaby trying to ruin my character". Great. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that he excels where other characters, who should be better than him at their given role, are being exceeded on every level. This isn't about him being "too good". It's about him being too good "for this game". He makes other characters completely redundant. That's a problem.

I also understand the reluctance to knee-jerk nerf requests. I do remember CSZ. I was not one of the people calling for his nerfs. Just because one character was treated unfairly doesn't mean we can never again debate the strengths and weaknesses of any character, ever. This isn't CSZ.

And just to kind of reply to about 99% of the negative comments in this thread: read the damn OP before you light your torches. I want Deadshot to be the amazing zoner he was meant to be. I don't want him to also have a top-10 rushdown game and a top-10 wakeup. Anyone who can't agree with that doesn't want him to just be a great zoner and not be nerfed; they want an invincible character with no weaknesses. That sounds more like crybaby behavior if you ask me.

@SaltShaker You're one of my favorite posters on TYM and I hate that we're on opposite sides of this. I totally get your position, though, and I think it's a smart and reasonable position. I could be totally wrong, but I just don't think it's too early to see what's right in front of our eyes.

And finally, to just refute the 10,000 "this pro player is beating Deadshot on stream right now!!!" replies: That is not the point of this thread. Deadshot can be beaten; just because you pick him doesn't give you and automatic win. This isn't about how Grr beat Sonic Foxx or any other nonsense. The issue is that Deadshot makes easily 25% of the cast redundant because he does what they do better than they do it, while also having top 1 or 2 zoning. That is the problem with Deadshot. That's not an opinion, that is an objective fact. I didn't say he's too good. I didn't say he's overpowered. I said he makes much of the cast redundant. (I'm actually going to amend this section to the OP to drive that home.)

 

[Reauxbot]

But I'm not complaining about Ivy tho.

I never said her zoning was bad and I know she has a gdlk overhead

People need to learn how to read before posting lol

How does ivy do against Deadshot?
I've been playing online for a while. Not one ivy came across my path so nor do I play her, soI know nothing of her. If she has counter zoning I'm interested. I need a secondary.

 

[DubiousShenron]

Why is it that all the zoners have all the most spammy hurr durr wakeups.

You need to end every combo in some plus HKD just to initiate any kind of oki. I get knocked down by a deadshot or whatever and get raped out of my wakeups by accident or dont even have one (joker)

Zoners should have HORRIBLE wakeups.

Ah tym, you are so utterly entertaining

 

[Reauxbot]

Give someone facts and they'll still call you crazy.

 

[xKhaoTik]

How does ivy do against Deadshot?
I've been playing online for a while. Not one ivy came across my path so nor do I play her, soI know nothing of her. If she has counter zoning I'm interested. I need a secondary.

It's hard. She can't really get anything going because of how fast and good the zoning is. She can try to sneak a drill in here and there but she'll most likely get hit during the start up or trade.

Barkskin helps a lot but she has to really earn it against him. Trait helps immensely since it helps her move in much easier. MB f3 helps a lot too since the reach is GDLK and it's plus on block.

So basically, she can counterzone against him but he makes it very hard.

 

[Branden Delio]

But I'm not complaining about Ivy tho.

I never said her zoning was bad and I know she has a gdlk overhead

People need to learn how to read before posting lol

Nobody is complaining about Ivy but youre over here making it seem like Ivy is such a shit character.

 

[SaltShaker]

@SaltShaker You're one of my favorite posters on TYM and I hate that we're on opposite sides of this. I totally get your position, though, and I think it's a smart and reasonable position. I could be totally wrong, but I just don't think it's too early to see what's right in front of our eyes.

Same.

I think it's very similar to the CSZ/Alien situation. CSZ had very obvious and blatant tools, which lead people to believe he was stronger than he actually was, when patience would have revealed that he was good but nothing overpowering. Instead he was bomb nerfed never to been seen again. The fact is he wasn't nerfed "that hard", it was that he wasn't as good as people thought early on so the nerfs had much bigger consequences than intended as the game played out. The same way you say "right in front of our eyes" is the exact same stance people had with their pitchforks at that time. Meanwhile Alien was barely even mentioned for 3 weeks, so by the time they nerfed he barely was touched and went on to destroy the game for months. People were saying Alien was too slow to be viable and low mid tier the first couple of weeks, but how did that story end? I can see this exact same situation repeating again in the exact same way. We can literally have Deadshot nerfed and some random like Harley or Beetle not be touched but rise to top and it would be an exact replica.

That's my biggest issue. It's easy for you for example to play Cheetah and say "wow this Deadshot is godlike", but it's easy for me to face Adam, Supergirl, Grodd, Aquaman, Arrow, Darkseid, and Atrocitus with a "wtf this MU is tough" face as well. There's MUs I feel these "strong normals" barely even work and I struggle keeping people out. It is a very MU based game unless you're playing the even better characters like Batman, then you always are ok. The proposed nerfs of "nerf WC recovery, unsafe or remove 50/50, reduce meter building, unsafe WU" i keep seeing could have devastating consequences. I can't even imagine how a couple of MUs could be playable with those nerfs. Aquaman could become unplayable.

People think I'm just adamant because I don't want my character nerfed, which is true. But I don't want any character nerfed for months. Not until we know what actually is too strong, or any buffs for people too weak. It's impossible by any standard to know that in week 1 unless someone is 6f mid that's +4 on block broken. We've seen how this plays out wayyy too often to go knee jerk all over again.

Batman.

 

[Scoot Magee]

The issue is that Deadshot makes easily 25% of the cast redundant because he does what they do better than they do it, while also having top 1 or 2 zoning.

I really can't support this argument because it's so early in the games life. If anything your argument should be to buff those 25% of the characters instead of nerfing deadshot. Still people don't know much about their characters yet. It's been proven countless amounts of times that characters who were fine end up receiving buffs due to under representation. It's too early to come to conclusions like this.

I think making changes based on 7 days of experience is a lot more risky than leaving the game be for a while. If people played more patiently they'll do better against deadshot. It's a new game and it takes time to get used to. There's always some bs that's hard to learn to fight against in the early stages of a game.

I play arrow and I can handle deadshot right now. I can get a knockdown with fire arrows and etc. If they nerf the character he may end up losing badly to characters he seems to go even with now.

 

[Scoot Magee]

How risky does it become for deadshot to use his projectiles when right outside of the range of his normals?

 

[xKhaoTik]

Nobody is complaining about Ivy but youre over here making it seem like Ivy is such a shit character.

How?
I said her f3 is gdlk. I agreed she has good walkspeed. I talked about her counter zoning. I talked about how good her trait is. I even said she's a bomb ass character and I love using her

I said she had a bad backdash and a bad D2. That's not complaining, those are actual facts.

You seem to have trouble with comprehension because not once have I said she's shit or she's bad. Learn to read please. Not too late to go back to school

 

[Reauxbot]

Same.

I think it's very similar to the CSZ/Alien situation. CSZ had very obvious and blatant tools, which lead people to believe he was stronger than he actually was, when patience would have revealed that he was good but nothing overpowering. Instead he was bomb nerfed never to been seen again. The fact is he wasn't nerfed "that hard", it was that he wasn't as good as people thought early on so the nerfs had much bigger consequences than intended as the game played out. The same way you say "right in front of our eyes" is the exact same stance people had with their pitchforks at that time. Meanwhile Alien was barely even mentioned for 3 weeks, so by the time they nerfed he barely was touched and went on to destroy the game for months. People were saying Alien was too slow to be viable and low mid tier the first couple of weeks, but how did that story end? I can see this exact same situation repeating again in the exact same way. We can literally have Deadshot nerfed and some random like Harley or Beetle not be touched but rise to top and it would be an exact replica.

That's my biggest issue. It's easy for you for example to play Cheetah and say "wow this Deadshot is godlike", but it's easy for me to face Adam, Supergirl, Grodd, Aquaman, Arrow, Darkseid, and Atrocitus with a "wtf this MU is tough" face as well. There's MUs I feel these "strong normals" barely even work and I struggle keeping people out. It is a very MU based game unless you're playing the even better characters like Batman, then you always are ok. The proposed nerfs of "nerf WC recovery, unsafe or remove 50/50, reduce meter building, unsafe WU" i keep seeing could have devastating consequences. I can't even imagine how a couple of MUs could be playable with those nerfs. Aquaman could become unplayable.

People think I'm just adamant because I don't want my character nerfed, which is true. But I don't want any character nerfed for months. Not until we know what actually is too strong, or any buffs for people too weak. It's impossible by any standard to know that in week 1 unless someone is 6f mid that's +4 on block broken. We've seen how this plays out wayyy too often to go knee jerk all over again.

Batman.

You leave Batman out of this.
-_-