The Problem With Deadshot

Discussion in 'Deadshot' started by karaokelove, May 22, 2017.

  1. karaokelove

    karaokelove Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Yay, another Deadshot thread! This was a bit too much for a post in his already-toxic nerf threads, so here you go. (Note: I was a Deathstroke main, so I'm all about zoning.)

    Deadshot is a zoning character. That's what he does. He should be amazing at it, and he is. That's fine. Zoning is a scrub-killer and people are going to complain about it no matter what. This post is not directly about his zoning.

    The problem with Deadshot is his ability to do everything else in the game better than a lot of characters who focus on those specific things; characters who don't have arguably the best zoning in the game. We'll dive into that topic in general in a minute, but specifically I want talk about his 50/50.

    So he's got great zoning, fine. And you're a patient player and you manage to work your way in, great. But then you've got a coin-flip guess: guess wrong and you take a nice chunk of damage and are back to square one. Guess right and it doesn't matter because he can always remain almost totally safe thanks to Wrist Cannon and Bullet Barrage. A total guess that's weighted in Deadshot's favor.

    Well is the 50/50 short-ranged like Ivy's low-starter? No, both options are sweep distance.

    Well can one option not be canceled, like most other 50/50's in the game? Nope, both options can be special-canceled.

    Well does he have to commit to one or the other? Nope, he can actually stagger b1's to make the 50/50 even harder to block.

    In fact, the only downside to either string is that b12 has a gap.

    Ok, great, so his 50/50 is pretty what? Well, look at the characters who have poor zoning options. You'd think they should be better up close in just about every way; their rushdown should be at least as good as his zoning. But nope; he's got:
    • 6-frame high starter (that ends with a mostly safe low that can be ended early). No rushdown character beats that.
    • 6-frame advancing mid that's 0 on block and pushes the opponent back past sweep distance and benefits from his trait. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any rushdown character has a 6-frame mid. Maybe Aquaman? You can't even punish the gap in f123 because the 3 is a step-back triple-hitting move, so it creates space while breaking armor.
    • A low-hitting safe 8-frame d1.
    • an f3 that's +6 on block
    • an 11-frame sweep that's only -5 and outranges even Cheetah's d3; the phantom hitbox actually extends well past his boot
    • A long-range low-overhead b12 that sends full-screen on hit and is only -1 on block
    • a long-range overhead that sends full-screen on hit
    Ok, so look at those tools. What rushdown character has access to that many amazing up-close tools? A 6-frame mid? Safe, staggerable 50/50? Why does he even need zoning when he's got that kind of up-close game? Catwoman doesn't have those tools. Cheetah doesn't have those tools. Bane doesn't even come close to those tools. And those are all characters that are completely defined by their up-close game; they literally don't even have projectiles.

    Ok, so you work your way in and guess right on his 50/50 and manage to land a hit and get a knock-down. Woo, this must be where his weak point is, correct? No one character can have zoning that good and rushdown that good and also have a decent wakeup, right? Wrong; he's got an invincible wakeup that's totally safe with meter (and he always has meter thanks to how quickly he builds it with his zoning). If it hits, yup, you guessed it; full screen. If you make a read, it's still a difficult move to whiff-punish due to how far he travels. Hell, if it whiffs, you just saved him a meter. So there's almost no downside to using this wakeup.

    Ok, so he's got amazing zoning, amazing rushdown, and arguably a top-10 wakeup move (maybe even top 5?)? Yes, and that's the problem with Deadshot; not that his zoning is so strong, but that his everything is so strong. [Note: I said "strong", not "unbeatable". And I only mean strong for how much versatility he has. I've heard him called a "hybrid" character by his defenders. Great, but a "hybrid" means versatility, not strength; a hybrid doesn't have amazing zoning and amazing rushdown and a 50/50 and an amazing wakeup, they should have adequate tools that compliment each other and create strength in their versatility. /note)

    He's a mess of a character, just in a very strong way. If you look at the opposite end of the "what the fuck was NRS thinking" spectrum, we see Brainiac; a character who's just as messed up, but in a way that makes him borderline unusable. No wakeup? Check. No projectile? Check (including trait; if your projectile goes away on block, fuck you, you do not have a projectile). No safe specials to cancel into? Check. Has to use crazy setups to get any damage? Check. So he's useless and difficult to use? Yes; opposite of Deadshot. Ideally, every character should be somewhere between those two extremes.

    So that's the problem with Deadshot. I want him to be an amazing zoner. That's totally fine. But when you give him the best zoning in the game without any weaknesses to offset it (other than a mediocre d2), it offsets the game balance dramatically. Why use Bane when I can use a character who dominates from both up close and full-screen? Why use half the cast when Deadshot does what they do better than them while being easier to play? [Fun fact: Deadshot can build 1 meter every 3 seconds while keeping his opponent locked down from up to full-screen, whether or not his opponent is blocking. If the opponent is crouching, it just becomes 1 meter every 7 seconds.]

    If you want to keep Deadshot as good at zoning as he currently is, you really need to bite the bullet (no pun intended) and admit that he needs nerfs. Whether or not you agree, he's going to get nerfs. You know it, I know it, and Ed Boon knows it. If you want him to keep his zoning, you need to admit that his up-close game is maybe a bit too intense. Hopefully when he receives his inevitable nerfs, they'll focus on his up-close game and leave his zoning alone. That's a best-case scenario for you Deadshot mains. I was a Kano main in Mk9, a Deathstroke main in I1, and a Jax main in MKX: I'm all too familiar with the nerf hammer. It's coming, and you can either complain like the anti-Deadshot zealots are doing right now, or you can at least attempt some damage control by redirecting the hate towards his up-close game.

    Phew, so in conclusion:

    The issue is that Deadshot makes easily 25% of the cast redundant because he does what they do better than they do it, while also having top 1 or 2 zoning. That is the problem with Deadshot. That's not an opinion, that is an objective fact. I didn't say he's too good. I didn't say he's overpowered. I said he makes much of the cast redundant.
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
  2. SaltShaker

    SaltShaker In Zoning We Trust

    Why yall don't make any threads about the characters better than him though? How will I hang in the multiple bad MUs without getting obliterated after them nerfs? Who gonna play with him after he gets the Inj1 Scorpion treatment?




  3. karaokelove

    karaokelove Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    1) That doesn't address a single thing brought up in the OP. You're not saying "no, I disagree, he doesn't have all the tools". You're essentially saying "sure, but what about x character?". That's not helpful to anyone. It's not even a non-argument, it's just an empty statement. Can't agree with it. Can't refute it. It literally just ends the discussion. Great.

    2) Is there a character better than him? I don't mean "Doctor Fate zones better" or "Cheetah has better rushdown". I mean in general, is there a character in the game who is just "better" than Deadshot? I'm surprised Blue Beetle isn't getting as much hate, honestly, but even he doesn't match Deadshot completely.
  4. CY MasterHavik

    CY MasterHavik Master of Chaos and Jax
    Premium Supporter

    So Slade is gonna get raped by the nerf bat of crybabies AGAIN....jesus he got buttfuck Injustice. Can we leave the man alone?

    (Also Deadstroke/Deathshot it's the same fucking guy.)
    Hardcore_Harley likes this.
  5. DDutchguy

    DDutchguy Raiden enthusiast

    Inb4 this turns out to be bait.

    I've seen some of your posts regarding Deadshot and you generally become overly defensive when someone says something bad about Deadshot. If you've posted a proper response about this before then fair enough, but I'd like to hear some legitimate thoughts on why this very good zoning character needs safe 50/50s and an excellent wakeup.
    Jelan, alkipot, x TeeJay o and 4 others like this.
  6. DDutchguy

    DDutchguy Raiden enthusiast

    If Deadshot gets his safe 50/50s nerfed but his zoning remains untouched then what's the problem exactly? He can still play his game so he's not getting 'raped by the nerf bat of crybabies'.
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
  7. SaltShaker

    SaltShaker In Zoning We Trust

    Don't take it too seriously. I've stated my stance multiple times but the same arguments keep coming up, so now I'm tired and just say Buff Deadshot whenever I see the daily thread.

  8. DDutchguy

    DDutchguy Raiden enthusiast

    Not sure what it will actually do for you but suit yourself.
  9. karaokelove

    karaokelove Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Thanks for taking the time to form a reasonable and cohesive argument. It's really appreciated.

    That said, at what point in my post am I being a "crybaby"? Was it when I pointed out how other rushdown characters don't have safe 50/50s? Or when I mention his 6-frame mid. How about his safe advancing wakeup? Does mentioning his solid tools make me a crybaby?
  10. ATP2014

    ATP2014 The best mediocre Batman

    The only thing really bugs me is the safe wakeup knee when MB. Shit is obnoxious.
  11. Error

    Error DF2+R2

    The problem with Deadshot is his fucking ugly skull mask gear.

    ABACABB End Of Humanity

    Darkseid is good example of how to balance zoner , hes amazing at zoning but his normals are very bad and hes slow . Thats why I dont understand why they made ds so good upclose too if hes already beast at zoning .
  13. karaokelove

    karaokelove Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Yes! His basic helmet is so much better than any gear piece I've found so far. Don't know why they want him to looks like fucking Wall-E.
  14. juicepouch

    juicepouch blink-182 enthusiast

  15. CY MasterHavik

    CY MasterHavik Master of Chaos and Jax
    Premium Supporter

    Yeah, but we should see how NRS patches characters. His zoning is gonna get touched and it won't feel good. He had to deal with it in the first game.

    I get it. zoning characters should be stupid good at everything else, but what always get touched is what they are supposed to be in the first place because Johnny69 doesn't know how to block guns.
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
    KIllaByte and juicepouch like this.
  16. karaokelove

    karaokelove Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Should we? Jacqui Briggs received almost as much hate in MKX and she only received buffs patch after patch. I wouldn't put it past NRS to appropriately tone down his up-close game without touching his zoning.
  17. Unrelated, but people keep mentioning Deathstroke like he was nerfed into oblivion.

    He ended the game as an upper-mid tier character. How the hell is that "nerfed to shit"?
  18. The chosen puddle

    The chosen puddle UPRISE ..... THERE IS ONLY GRODD

    Death stroke and deadshot are 2 different ppl
  19. karaokelove

    karaokelove Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Ha, yeah, I didn't even want to open that whole can of worms. Deathstroke's up-close game was better than his zoning. He was even more ridiculous than Deadshot, honestly. But they nerfed the recovery on his zoning instead of his rushdown.
    God Confirm likes this.

    ABACABB End Of Humanity

    General idea of zoning character is that he dominates from fullscreen and its hard to get in on him but when someone finally does it he should be scared . Not like " ok hes in , now im gonna mix him to death" lol
  21. CY MasterHavik

    CY MasterHavik Master of Chaos and Jax
    Premium Supporter

    I missed out on MK10.(I had no PS4 at the time.). But with that said, wow well NRS must have become unpredictable. If they actually just nerf what you brought with 50/50 and his up close game. I wouldn't be against that. I just don't want a repeat of the last game.

    Wait, really?!
    EdenianWarrior and karaokelove like this.
  22. The chosen puddle

    The chosen puddle UPRISE ..... THERE IS ONLY GRODD

    No im joking they are both batman
  23. Tanno

    Tanno The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
    Premium Supporter

    Just make Deadshot a copy paste of Erron Black and it should be fine. :DOGE
    Misky and T-box88 like this.
  24. villainous monk

    villainous monk Break bread over a whiskey n rocks. Like a man.

    It's sad really. What you pointed is is true. Even though his up close game is good it's not great. It all depends on people's skills. Knowledge and experience dealing with match ups. Most people havent played or played aganst a hybrid zoner like him. Not only in this game but all fighters before it. I play dead shot too. I also lose to dead shot but I'm not going to go online here and vomit out my brine of salty rage and cry about it. I'll ask for help.
    I'll go to the lab and practice who can get in or out better then he can.
    I'll play different characters and zone him out before he starts his shit.

    Basically I'll WORK to beat him and learn from my losses how not to get beat by him. But nobody says that. Or does it. Or posts it. No. We just bitch.

    But I don't care. I'll keep using a character like him even more now because I'm an ass like that. I just wish people would stop bitching about him and lab or use him too.

    Darkseid is next and Harley too. Those are the next targets after dead shot.
    armani, ismael4790 and SaltShaker like this.
  25. BookBurning

    BookBurning Voidwards

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