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The Problem With Deadshot

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
Yeah the pro scene is certainly shifting the deadshot conversation. I remember at the start of MKX watching @STB Shujinkydink destroy kids in tournament with a very simple hard to blockable with bat and B2. In MKX quan was one of the better zoners as well. If I recall correctly quan did get nerfed but learning how to deal with the bat mixups stayed in the game. Some people hate it understandably, but quan was never a huge problem in the competitive scene, or in casual play. He was occasionally picked up and always very strong, but everything was ok.
the Bat / B2 combo was a safe 1f HTB that you could 50/50 the overhead or low to come first, that looped back into itself meterlessly. It was probably the brokest thing to be released in MKX next to the LK block infinite, and ended up needing to be nerfed heavily. Quan was the brokest character in the game for a long period lol. The argument of what happens in a competitive scene with only about 5-10 ppl MAXIMUM skilled enough to be classed as competing at the highest level available is kind of anecdotal as hell, you need a competitive pool the size of a real esport before you can start analyzing win result data and using it to draw conclusions of game balance, at a game our size outcomes are decided by the players, not so much the characters up.




I'm all for waiting to see how strong this character is in time. But that means you guys too. Stop using flawed arguments to whine about why your character doesn't need nerfs - if you want to wait it out, then wait it out, because the #1 people I see making a decision on whether he's balanced or not is Deadshot players themselves telling us how fine he is - if it's not too early for you guys to make that call then it's not too early for anyone else to say he's too strong either, so do yourself a favor and hush up and let the game grow.
 

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Premium Supporter
- b1 -10 on block
- b12 -6 on block
- Mb low guns have no pushback on block
- overhead can't be special cancelled on block
- d2 buff

There ya go.
 

Krunchy

Noob
I brought up quan because it's truly the most extreme example of a broken 50/50. He had that along with an already very strong kit. Quan was a problem and he deserved to be adjusted I feel like he was in a pretty good place tier wise after. Deadshot isn't even that op and people are talking about him like he's nullifying 50% of the cast..
 

karaokelove

Dead or alive, you’re coming with me.
Premium Supporter
- b1 -10 on block
- b12 -6 on block
- Mb low guns have no pushback on block
- overhead can't be special cancelled on block
- d2 buff

There ya go.
Eh? The string that starts with an overhead can absolutely be canceled.

Also, his strings don't launch, so by canceling into Wrist Shot he essentially has a +21 restand on any string that isn't blocked (with the exception of b12u3). And before I have to say this a dozen time, that in itself isn't overpowered. It just doesn't make sense for such a strong zoner. Give it to WW or CW or Cheetah; Deadshot is a zoner, he doesn't need that nonsense.

[Edit] I'm an idiot.
 
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SHAOLIN

内部冲突
Eh? The string that starts with an overhead can absolutely be canceled.

Also, his strings don't launch, so by canceling into Wrist Shot he essentially has a +21 restand on any string that isn't blocked (with the exception of b12u3). And before I have to say this a dozen time, that in itself isn't overpowered. It just doesn't make sense for such a strong zoner. Give it to WW or CW or Cheetah; Deadshot is a zoner, he doesn't need that nonsense.
You gotta be quicker than that kid, he's taking about a " What If " patch note for Deadshot.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
How can we already be sure that Deadshot is a problem character? All we really know is he's a strong character, he has yet to do anything super dominant. He certainly doesn't compare to the MKX launch characters. Batman, Black Adam, and Aquaman are all better for sure imo.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
Deadshot feels like a PG-13 movie after dealing with all of MKX's gross stuff
Like the launch version of MKX had Quan Chi with the looping safe 1 frame htb 50/50, 50/50s that could be made plus on block, and the best zoning in the game. Liu Kang with and actual block infinite. Thunder God Raiden who had option selects out the ass, taking practiacally 50% damage off of a safe 50/50, along with a 6 frame advancing mid that led to (soap bar in my mouth) amounts of chip and meter building that you can't do shit about. Alien left the biggest mark on MKX, but he wasn't shit compared to those 3 honestly unless we are talking day 1 Tarkatan. Those were actual broken characters that were too good.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
Assumptions like this is why we should wait before having an idea on placement.

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/injustice/index.html?tc=ya0-tre63mc93mfc7qizbhg93lh87odg7qfbf3h6f1kwf3bkf29nbj9pf2izj5dgf3h3j4j2f2mpbhddbibibjkubhi63lbl7rf7j5dbj6h4bij47pbgj7f8bi7sbh-bk5-naForever King

In hindsight, it now looks laughable. That was after 4 months, and we haven't hit 3 weeks and any dlc.
The Deathstroke placement is honestly just as cringe as the Batgirl and Martian
 

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Premium Supporter
Assumptions like this is why we should wait before having an idea on placement.

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/injustice/index.html?tc=ya0-tre63mc93mfc7qizbhg93lh87odg7qfbf3h6f1kwf3bkf29nbj9pf2izj5dgf3h3j4j2f2mpbhddbibibjkubhi63lbl7rf7j5dbj6h4bij47pbgj7f8bi7sbh-bk5-naForever King

In hindsight, it now looks laughable. That was after 4 months, and we haven't hit 3 weeks and any dlc.
Look, we usually agree on everything and I love zoning. I'm playing Harley in Injustice 2 and I hope to god starfire is a strong zoner so I can pick her up too.

I don't really care about deadshot's zoning. But his upclose game is bullshit.

I also think other characters need changes

BM:
- trait cool down increased by 2 seconds
- trait doesn't regenerate between rounds
- slight damage nerf

BA:
- trait cool down increased by 3 seconds
- trait doesn't regenerate between rounds

AM:
- trait cool down increased by 2 seconds
- b12*3 introduce a gap where the * is

SM:
- trait cool down increased by 2 seconds
- slight damage nerf

Atrocitous:
- last hit of mix up string hits mid
- trait cool down increased by 2 seconds

Captain Cold:
- increase the gap between wall and the MB
 

SM StarGazer

The voice of reason in a Sea of Salt
Like I've said. Fuck Wlill Smith. Turn b1 into a mid, increase recovery on PewPew, MB Rifle should be death on block at close range.
 

armani

Noob
how did the FGC get like this? the purpose of fighting games is to learn the matchups, git gud, and enjoy the game and experience. what's so hard about that? everybody resorts to whining & continuously wants to point out how OP a characters tools are. if y'all spent this much time in the lab then I really feel like deadshot would just be another character. like what's so hard? again..... one of the core values of playing fighting games is to learn matchups and to thoroughly understand characters, mechanics, playstyles, etc. and it's still way too early in the games lifespan to make any real discernment on whether or not a character has a "problem" or not.

whether or not y'all want to admit it, these knee jerk responses to character design and playstyle are what crippled past NRS games. there's always this early focus & outrage on character balance to the point where it reaches NRS and it leaves us with a butchered game. it never fails. there is no reason why NRS was patching MKX monthly! and granted, while that game needed more love (block infinites, quick meter building, etc.) the amount of changes that were made almost wrecked the game, especially in competitive play.

we all know how heavy-handed NRS gets when it comes to nerfing and buffing characters, so I think it's best to just shut up and see this thing through. as fighting game players, we should love the fact that we aren't doing well against/ hate this matchup, cause it SHOULD give us a reason to level up our own character. what's so different now? ok, the consensus says that our boy Will Smith has highly favorable 50/50s, great frames, an invincible and safe MB wake-up, brain-dead projectiles, etc... the real PROBLEM, with these "problems with deadshot" threads is that I see no one providing real solutions, rather choosing to whine because this particular character has the impression of being really strong. y'all do realize that everyone is saying the same thing about Deadshot at this point? it has been proven time and time again that what's on paper isn't always true about a character in-game and even more so as the game progresses.

y'all are gonna end up destroying this fucking game because y'all can't get the instant gratification of easily winning against every character the day you buy the game. I feel bad cause NRS actually cares about delivering quality games and y'all aren't doing nothing but having a tearfest right now and this shit is appalling.

TL;DR - be an actual fighting game player and actually learn the matchup.. aka git gud

NRS IF YOUR READING THIS, WAIT TO PATCH THIS GAME!
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
- b1 -10 on block
- b12 -6 on block
- Mb low guns have no pushback on block
- overhead can't be special cancelled on block
- d2 buff

There ya go.
Whole point of mb rifle is pushback, which was already nerfed since pre release. If mb rifle had no pushback on block there would be few reasons to use it over ex trickshot.

About his 50/50s, I think only change needed is f23 to be not special cancelable. It would reduce the safety of his 50/50 starters in the corner.

About the b12u3 string, i think people still don't exploit its gaps. If string gets significantly more negative AND keeps gaps, it will suck.

In zoning department, everything besides straight shot (some recovery should be added, not teleflurry recovery, thanks xD) is fine.
 

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Premium Supporter
Whole point of mb rifle is pushback, which was already nerfed since pre release. If mb rifle had no pushback on block there would be few reasons to use it over ex trickshot.

About his 50/50s, I think only change needed is f23 to be not special cancelable. It would reduce the safety of his 50/50 starters in the corner.

About the b12u3 string, i think people still don't exploit its gaps. If string gets significantly more negative AND keeps gaps, it will suck.

In zoning department, everything besides straight shot (some recovery should be added, not teleflurry recovery, thanks xD) is fine.
Being pushed back basically full screen on block is bullshit. If I get hit, sure, but if I make the read and progress in slowly why the hell should I be pushed back just because? It's not like you can jump over them or avoid it (except for a few characters).

Im not advocating for his string to be punishable, just get rid of his bullshit stagger.

His straight hot is fine since that's obviously how he's meant to be played. Zoning is ok, just allow the opponent to capitalise when they make the correct read. Being pushed back on block for making correct reads is not fair. Eating cancer 50/50 staggers is not fair.

You can also keep your b12 string if you like, just make b1 19 frames startup.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
how did the FGC get like this? the purpose of fighting games is to learn the matchups, git gud, and enjoy the game and experience. what's so hard about that? everybody resorts to whining & continuously wants to point out how OP a characters tools are. if y'all spent this much time in the lab then I really feel like deadshot would just be another character. like what's so hard? again..... one of the core values of playing fighting games is to learn matchups and to thoroughly understand characters, mechanics, playstyles, etc. and it's still way too early in the games lifespan to make any real discernment on whether or not a character has a "problem" or not.

whether or not y'all want to admit it, these knee jerk responses to character design and playstyle are what crippled past NRS games. there's always this early focus & outrage on character balance to the point where it reaches NRS and it leaves us with a butchered game. it never fails. there is no reason why NRS was patching MKX monthly! and granted, while that game needed more love (block infinites, quick meter building, etc.) the amount of changes that were made almost wrecked the game, especially in competitive play.

we all know how heavy-handed NRS gets when it comes to nerfing and buffing characters, so I think it's best to just shut up and see this thing through. as fighting game players, we should love the fact that we aren't doing well against/ hate this matchup, cause it SHOULD give us a reason to level up our own character. what's so different now? ok, the consensus says that our boy Will Smith has highly favorable 50/50s, great frames, an invincible and safe MB wake-up, brain-dead projectiles, etc... the real PROBLEM, with these "problems with deadshot" threads is that I see no one providing real solutions, rather choosing to whine because this particular character has the impression of being really strong. y'all do realize that everyone is saying the same thing about Deadshot at this point? it has been proven time and time again that what's on paper isn't always true about a character in-game and even more so as the game progresses.

y'all are gonna end up destroying this fucking game because y'all can't get the instant gratification of easily winning against every character the day you buy the game. I feel bad cause NRS actually cares about delivering quality games and y'all aren't doing nothing but having a tearfest right now and this shit is appalling.

TL;DR - be an actual fighting game player and actually learn the matchup.. aka git gud

NRS IF YOUR READING THIS, WAIT TO PATCH THIS GAME!
@wsj515 you wanted a good argument? There isn't one better than this post.
 

karaokelove

Dead or alive, you’re coming with me.
Premium Supporter
That essay still misses the point. I think I've said this once for every page of this thread: we're not calling Deadshot overpowered. He's beatable. He's no Aquaman or Batman or Bladam. He's just a mess of a character. If he's a zoner, he doesn't need that up-close nonsense. If he's a hybrid, he doesn't need top 1 or 2 zoning.

I also am not actively calling for nerfs. I'm saying he's going to get nerfed, so if I were a Deadshot main (who supposedly just want a good zoner), I'd hop on the "please nerf his rushdown and not his zoning" train in an instant.

And finally, what is the "real solution" to a 50/50? I'm pretty sure it's just to ritually sacrifice Sonic Fox and pray to the old gods, but so far I haven't been able to get my hands on a wild Sonic.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
"Fair" is a funny thing in games like this. There is an "unfair" aspect to every character in the game. Batman's trait nuking footsies is "unfair", Aquaman and Black Adam taking half your life with a combo that could be executed by a quadrapalegic monkey while also having an amazing toolset is "unfair", Superman having a string like F23 while other supposed footsie characters don't have something as good as that is "unfair", Deadshot too has some "unfair" aspects about him. But that's just how the game works really, anything that is good is probably going to be annoying for the person on the receiving end, because it's good.
 
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SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Look, we usually agree on everything and I love zoning. I'm playing Harley in Injustice 2 and I hope to god starfire is a strong zoner so I can pick her up too.

I don't really care about deadshot's zoning. But his upclose game is bullshit.

I also think other characters need changes

BM:
- trait cool down increased by 2 seconds
- trait doesn't regenerate between rounds
- slight damage nerf

BA:
- trait cool down increased by 3 seconds
- trait doesn't regenerate between rounds

AM:
- trait cool down increased by 2 seconds
- b12*3 introduce a gap where the * is

SM:
- trait cool down increased by 2 seconds
- slight damage nerf

Atrocitous:
- last hit of mix up string hits mid
- trait cool down increased by 2 seconds

Captain Cold:
- increase the gap between wall and the MB
Notice you're in response to a tier list by a Top 5 NRS player who had both MMH and Batgirl at mid tier at that time, and Wonder Woman #1. If you implement all these nerfs to the "supposed top tier of a 2 week old game", how could you possibly know that a "supposed" mid tier or low tier isn't the best in the game literally right now? What if those characters need those tools to fight this games Batgirl and MMH, or those tools aren't as good as they appear two weeks in?

It's impossible.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
Look, we usually agree on everything and I love zoning. I'm playing Harley in Injustice 2 and I hope to god starfire is a strong zoner so I can pick her up too.

I don't really care about deadshot's zoning. But his upclose game is bullshit.

I also think other characters need changes

BM:
- trait cool down increased by 2 seconds
- trait doesn't regenerate between rounds
- slight damage nerf

BA:
- trait cool down increased by 3 seconds
- trait doesn't regenerate between rounds

AM:
- trait cool down increased by 2 seconds
- b12*3 introduce a gap where the * is

SM:
- trait cool down increased by 2 seconds
- slight damage nerf

Atrocitous:
- last hit of mix up string hits mid
- trait cool down increased by 2 seconds

Captain Cold:
- increase the gap between wall and the MB
nah leave their traits alone, also the gap for aquamans string makes no sense. :/ don't agree with much of it. the last hit of attrocitus mixup string being mid, i can go with that tho.