The official buffs/nerfs discussion thread.

[RWDY Nori]

I swear I've gotten poked out of it fullscreen before. Glitch? (This was online)

I've also lost to Kung Lao's Dive kick after startup.

I've lost to D+1's, projectiles, everything. And this is all at least 1 full second after startup.

This may just be an online issue, but it seems to lose to everything no matter what for me.

Some general questions I just have to ask:

1) Why are you doing ANY X-ray full screen unless you are Reptile?

2) If you are seeing KL do a divekick, why would you react w/X-ray vs blocking, then doing F3, 2, spin/block torturing mixups?



X-Rays are supposed to be for combos. If are trying to play this game like SF4 where you can close your eyes, hope an ultra saves you, it doesn't work that way. You are Kabal brother, you don't even NEED your x-ray.

 

[notjuice]

THIS! How bull is it we have a character whose projectiles can't be stuffed? Furthermore, I wish they'd make his ground saw not spawn behind him before going forward like it currently does. I'm sick of reading Kabal correctly, deep jumping/teleporting his saw only to get hit by it on the other side. Well, I guess it's not "correct reading" afterall but I feel like it should be.

Some things I'd like to see:
Cage flipkick truly punishable on block. A huge range shoryuken like that shouldn't be so safe on block. Upball is pretty much the same move and it's punishable...

A few more startup frames on KL's spin so it's not the be-all-end-all answer to pressure/frametraps.

A few more startup frames on Reptile's elbow dash, for the same reason above.

A few more startup frames on Raiden's teleport, for again the same reason.

Increase the d4/d1 hitboxes of Kitana, Mileena and Sonya a bit.

Give Stryker full armor on ex roll or most of his ex moves in general. If a kickass character like Rain can be swimming in armor, surely they can spare some for Stryker.

Give Sheeva's ex telestomp full armor. Right now it's a waste of a meter since it doesn't change the properties of the move or grant safety.

Make Baraka's ex blade charge fullscreen and/or make B3,1 safe on block.

As DanCock would say, "take the handcuffs off Sindel."

i agree completely.

the biggest problem KL spin, Reptile dash, and Raiden teleport constitute are the fact that these moves are "get out of jail free cards". this is NOT good fighting game balance. there has to be risk vs reward options. if you're getting pressured on one of these characters, there's just simply no reason not to use them. you WILL get out, and you don't spend a meter doing it like everyone else does via armor moves. there's no tradeoff, at all. you get pressured? you use one of those moves.

as jenny said, tack on some starting frames for all those moves.

one of my ideas for reptile dash is that perhaps the damage initiation on the elbow dash does NOT begin with the move. think of SSF4 Akuma's Raging Demon. now yes i know that this is a super move but stay with me. it'd work in a similar way. at the beginning of the move, when you initiate it (without any kara setups or anything fancy) you will not instantaneously grab the opponent into the move. it has starting frames before the move itself is initiated.

now i wouldn't say that it has to be as slow to come out as raging demon, but for the purposes of this balance it keeps the mobility options of dashing instantly while taking away the 6 frame punish no meter spent get out of jail free card. you don't even have to add that many frames of delay on it, just enough so that it's not completely mindless to use. a SMALL change like this would drastically improve the quality of play, as you don't have to fear setting the opponent up due to a 6 frame startup move that negates alot of pressure.

as far as if elbow dash should have some sort of afteruse delay, if it needs to be done okay. but atleast either add on a few frames of startup delay, or do the change i suggested first and see if it doesn't drastically improve gameplay balance. for raiden's teleport, even 7 frame startup as opposed to 6 would be a godsend of a change so that he can be stuffed out of brainlessly teleporting out of any dangerous situation. same goes for KL, he shouldn't be allowed to START a combo with a 6 frame move.

 

[elamit]

:facepalm:

 

[Error]

I find Kung Lao painfully boring to watch, and I'm not lying or not a true MK fan...


back to lurking the character forums now.

 

[RWDY Nori]

I find Kung Lao painfully boring to watch, and I'm not lying or not a true MK fan...


back to lurking the character forums now.

Then you are focusing too much on the char not the players. It was absolutely terrific to watch Reo and PL get in each others heads and a true fan would appreciate that..............or are not experienced enough to understand it. Pick one

 

[HadesWTF]

Some general questions I just have to ask:

1) Why are you doing ANY X-ray full screen unless you are Reptile?

2) If you are seeing KL do a divekick, why would you react w/X-ray vs blocking, then doing F3, 2, spin/block torturing mixups?



X-Rays are supposed to be for combos. If are trying to play this game like SF4 where you can close your eyes, hope an ultra saves you, it doesn't work that way. You are Kabal brother, you don't even NEED your x-ray.

I know this. This is mostly just me testing stuff out. The Kung Lao Instance was when he had a fraction of health left and he was across the screen dive kicking and I was like (okay I'll just xray and win) but dive kick won the exchange. He was trying to jump divekick to make it across the screen.


I don't ever use Kabal's xray....but if I did I wouldn't combo with it, the damage scaling is the worst in the game. I do find myself with a full meter during the end of a fight a lot of the time because he builds meter so insanely, and it would be nice if....you know....those 3 full bars didn't lose to a normal.

 

[Error]

I found the ReovsPerfect Legend match and all the other ones very entertaining, I watched that stream for it's whole duration. I still find KL boring to watch, it's just me, and maybe I'm not experienced enough to see the magical hype behind KL, I'm just the average online casual player who looks too much into competitive play. Better than watching sports.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

i agree completely.

the biggest problem KL spin, Reptile dash, and Raiden teleport constitute are the fact that these moves are "get out of jail free cards". this is NOT good fighting game balance. there has to be risk vs reward options. if you're getting pressured on one of these characters, there's just simply no reason not to use them. you WILL get out, and you don't spend a meter doing it like everyone else does via armor moves. there's no tradeoff, at all. you get pressured? you use one of those moves.

as jenny said, tack on some starting frames for all those moves.

one of my ideas for reptile dash is that perhaps the damage initiation on the elbow dash does NOT begin with the move. think of SSF4 Akuma's Raging Demon. now yes i know that this is a super move but stay with me. it'd work in a similar way. at the beginning of the move, when you initiate it (without any kara setups or anything fancy) you will not instantaneously grab the opponent into the move. it has starting frames before the move itself is initiated.

now i wouldn't say that it has to be as slow to come out as raging demon, but for the purposes of this balance it keeps the mobility options of dashing instantly while taking away the 6 frame punish no meter spent get out of jail free card. you don't even have to add that many frames of delay on it, just enough so that it's not completely mindless to use. a SMALL change like this would drastically improve the quality of play, as you don't have to fear setting the opponent up due to a 6 frame startup move that negates alot of pressure.

as far as if elbow dash should have some sort of afteruse delay, if it needs to be done okay. but atleast either add on a few frames of startup delay, or do the change i suggested first and see if it doesn't drastically improve gameplay balance. for raiden's teleport, even 7 frame startup as opposed to 6 would be a godsend of a change so that he can be stuffed out of brainlessly teleporting out of any dangerous situation. same goes for KL, he shouldn't be allowed to START a combo with a 6 frame move.

do you even read other posts? It is a skill I know.
In any case. Reptiles dash isn't a "get out of jail" move. Neither is spin. Neither is teleport really.
I am going to assume most of your matches come online... so yes I feel that pain. Sometimes they feel unpunishable. I realize that. Sometimes I lose because of the lag. That is fine. Sometimes I lose because I made bad decisions.

Offline these things are VERY punishable. Go into practice mode and set wake-up attacks on and always blocking. then punish. You'll realize the mistake of saying they are "free".

 

[Zoidberg747]

Let the haters hate. They obviously don't play Baraka. I don't necessarily agree with making blade charge safe, but fullscreen ex blade charge is something I feel he needs desperately. He has to spend EVERYTHING (all meter) to get in versus zoners who can zone for FREE. That's the crux of the situation. Nightwolf got a fullscreen armored ex shoulder bash that hits overhead, but Baraka can't get the same treatment with his hitting high? It's not like Nightwolf even needed the armor, he already had anti-zoning tools. Johnny got armor on his fullscreen gap closer and he's a much more deadly close combatant than Baraka. I'm not saying Baraka is bad, he's actually pretty good with a lot of nice frametraps, but fleeing zoners are a fucking nightmare for him, especially if they have air fireball games (Sindel, Liu Kang, Kitana, Mileena, Kabal, etc).

LOL my second main is baraka, and I have NO problem getting in on people. You just have to know and time your blade charge. It would be overpowered, whether you main him or not. At the very least you can dash block, most zoners cant compete with baraka once he gets in close. I could see maybe giving EX blade charge more range then the regular one, but fullscreen I think would just be OP.

 

[RWDY Nori]

the biggest problem KL spin, Reptile dash, and Raiden teleport constitute are the fact that these moves are "get out of jail free cards". this is NOT good fighting game balance. there has to be risk vs reward options.

I stopped after reading this. Has anybody told you that you can get FULL combos after any of these? Yes, even Raiden's teleport isn't safe. This is why you don't see Raidens winning tournaments, he is only god tier online, not offline.

Nori is going to show you something cool, watch this:


-Kabal's spin, great move right? If you block it, full combo
-Reptiles elbow dash, same
-Raiden's superman, same
-KL's divekick AND spin, same
-Johnny Cage's Shadow kick (green you can duck, or block and rape) and EX shadow kick, block and rape
-Mileena's roll, block and punish
-Raiden's shock move? Very unsafe. EX Shock? Very unsafe
-SZ's slide, same
-CSZ slide, teleport and dive kick (unless done VERY low, which is hard), block and destroy

Starting to see a pattern here?

-NW's shoulder? Duck punish, no matter what
-Ermac's force lift, block and punish
-Noobs teleport, block and punish
-Sektor's teleport uppercut

These are the best "get off me" moves in the entire game and all have HUGE risk/reward, how can you possibly say it isn't risk/reward options?

 

[MagnetoHalfway]

I stopped after reading this. Has anybody told you that you can get FULL combos after any of these? Yes, even Raiden's teleport isn't safe. This is why you don't see Raidens winning tournaments, he is only god tier online, not offline.

Nori is going to show you something cool, watch this:


-Kabal's spin, great move right? If you block it, full combo
-Reptiles elbow dash, same
-Raiden's superman, same
-KL's divekick AND spin, same
-Johnny Cage's Shadow kick (green you can duck, or block and rape) and EX shadow kick, block and rape
-Mileena's roll, block and punish
-Raiden's shock move? Very unsafe. EX Shock? Very unsafe
-SZ's slide, same
-CSZ slide, teleport and dive kick (unless done VERY low, which is hard), block and destroy

Starting to see a pattern here?

-NW's shoulder? Duck punish, no matter what
-Ermac's force lift, block and punish
-Noobs teleport, block and punish
-Sektor's teleport uppercut

These are the best "get off me" moves in the entire game and all have HUGE risk/reward, how can you possibly say it isn't risk/reward options?

Truth.

 

[Robotic]

People who play offline for the most part against people who play online for the most part have 2 different games they are playing. That is a major issue, game creators! Fix that in the next installment! These forums are people arguing over a game that behaves differently to each person, unfuckingbelievable. I can't even reliably lean my support to one side or another because I have no idea what speed their game is coming out at.

You will all agree to disagree till the stars burn up and it might not even be your fault. Kung, Raiden, Rep, Kitana's D1 could definitely seem broken with the online lag, I get that. Those same issues are handled offline pretty easily, I get that too. It would be nice if we were all playing the same game, that would be a good start.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

People who play offline for the most part against people who play online for the most part have 2 different games they are playing. That is a major issue, game creators! Fix that in the next installment! These forums are people arguing over a game that behaves differently to each person, unfuckingbelievable. I can't even reliably lean my support to one side or another because I have no idea what speed their game is coming out at.

You will all agree to disagree till the stars burn up and it might not even be your fault. Kung, Raiden, Rep, Kitana's D1 could definitely seem broken with the online lag, I get that. Those same issues are handled offline pretty easily, I get that too. It would be nice if we were all playing the same game, that would be a good start.

This guy. He speaks the truth.
My timing is off on everything, it's like I've gotta play with a built-in delay in my brain.
Forget the 50%'er most of the time, because the uppercut never seems to come out when it's supposed to.
Listen to the people. I mean, in this particular case.
Some requests are insane. This, this one is not. Try. Pretty please.

 

[Past]

This x1000. No nerfs/buffs are needed anymore. This game will never be 100% balanced, but we DO have the most balanced competitive fighting game at the moment. Fix some hit boxes and this game is perfect.

Lol not as long as games like Blazblue and Arcana heart exist.

 

[RWDY Nori]

Lol not as long as games like Blazblue and Arcana heart exist.

I meant games that are taken seriously by the general fighting game community, should have been more specific

 

[Zoidberg747]

Blazblue is a very technical game and is taken very seriously by most of the fighting community. Idk about arcana heart but im sure its the same way. And I hate to break it to you guys but to most of the general fighting game community MK9 is a joke(Not me, I love it, but to most, yeah).

 

[RWDY Nori]

Okay now that comment makes you look like a dumbass. Blazblue is a very technical game and is taken very seriously by most of the fighting community. Idk about arcana heart but im sure its the same way. And I hate to break it to you guys but to most of the general fighting game community MK9 is a joke(Not me, I love it, but to most, yeah).

First off, I didn't call anybody any names and don't want it done to me. I'm all about sarcasm, but name calling won't be tolerated on the site. Period

Second, I never said Arcana Heart and Blaze Blue were crappy games. However, look at the turnout at Evo for MK9 vs the other games. If BlazeBlue or AH3 had more than 500 people enter, I'm not aware of it and I'll gladly retract my statement. Also, over 20k people watched the stream at Evo, so it's clearly more popular than you are letting on. If it wasn't for hurricane Irene, Summerjam would have had at least 100 people enter. That sounds like a popular game to me. Just saying

 

[Zoidberg747]

First off, I didn't call anybody any names and don't want it done to me. I'm all about sarcasm, but name calling won't be tolerated on the site. Period

Second, I never said Arcana Heart and Blaze Blue were crappy games. However, look at the turnout at Evo for MK9 vs the other games. If BlazeBlue or AH3 had more than 500 people enter, I'm not aware of it and I'll gladly retract my statement.

I edited my post, I apologize for my harshness/rudeness

The Evo example is not a good one though. Many Blazblue players probably arent in the U.S. Same with Arcana Heart. Its like whenever people were saying Tekken is so crappy because all it is is bob players, what they dont realize is the U.S.(EVO) makes it look like crap. If you watch tournaments overseas, you see people playing a wide variety of characters instead of just Bob.

EVO is a big tournament but should not be the only thing you consider when judging a fighting games popularity

 

[RWDY Nori]

I get what you are saying. Tekken isn't crappy but it is infested w/Bob players. I've played Tekken in tournaments across the USA since T5 (I should have started w/TTT). Point being, at the highest level, it's not super balanced.

If you have hard numbers to prove AH3/BB is more popular than MK9 (MK9 outsold both) than again, I'll retract my statement. I'll still say that MK9 is the most balanced competitive FG right now. Evo is actually quite a good example. 500 people show up, in the top 8 you have 10 chars. That's not balance?

 

[Zoidberg747]

Oh lol I wasnt arguing that, just the no one takes them seriously part. Yeah, MK9 is one of the most balanced fighters atm

 

[ZeroEffect]

What Dark Rob is trying to say, is that people don't think before they post. And for tournament players who put hours and hours trying to better themselves on the game, when you come on the forums, it seems other players are spending more time complaining and wanting unrealistic buffs/nerfs vs figuring out "oh wait, this move/char CAN be beaten if I do this".

I have learned a TREMENDOUS amount from the forums, I then go apply it. It's just a common understanding that new gamers today don't like to be challenged. They blame the game if they are losing. I mean, how EASY is it to say "Come on NRS, PATCH THIS!" vs the dreaded truth of "Damn, that player got in my head and I fucked up". And if you are going to post something in a thread like this, make sure it makes sense. Don't just say "DIS MOVE IS BROKE YO!", break down why a move should be nerfed/buffed and make sure it's balanced for the cast. Note there will never be a perfect fighting game. This is not a wish thread, which I think many of you confuse this w/. Wish threads are in the char forums, go there instead.

Dark Rob might be coming off rough or frustrated, but as a MK tournament player of years experience, he has every right to be. Or any tournament player. It's not some super elite status, it's just a mindset that more people should adapt. MK9 is such a great game, and threads like this overall are a big joke. Look at MK9's tourney results vs every other major fighting game. Look at how many different chars are winning tournaments. The supposed "cheapest, best, broken char" is rarely seen in the top 5 (Kung Lao) and NRS is AGAIN going to patch him, just to shut people up.

Overall, when people say man up, they are saying to challenge yourself as a player to get over that (mental) hump and level your shit up

EDIT: Do you think the guy above me really took his time to post his thoughts? This is a perfect example...

I agree with some parts, but I disagree with others. In the end, NRS is going to do what they want in terms of patching anyway. They may listen to the community, but let's face it 80% of us go unheard in the grand scheme of things.

So, may as well just sit back and watch the madness unfold. Watch as less dedicated players complain about stuff that isn't really a problem, and after that watch as top players defend the BS tactics they use because... well... "it's in the game man up".

 

[aj1701]

X-Rays are supposed to be for combos. If are trying to play this game like SF4 where you can close your eyes, hope an ultra saves you, it doesn't work that way.

I don't get that; why would you want to use an xray in a combo? After the damage scaling, is it really worth the what, 4% extra damage?

I've used Kitty's xray after only two previous hits; total damage was 21%. Naked xray is 33%. Only seems worth to if you do a JK~xray, as the scaling doesn't kick in.

 

[ZeroEffect]

The only buff I think is desperately needed in the game is Kabal's X-Ray. It should just have armor. It's already worthless as far as damage goes. The least they could do is give it armor so you can't be poked or projectiled out of it. It would make people think twice before attacking a Kabal with a full meter. If they don't block, they eat the xray. That is only fair right? That is every other xray in the game, pretty sure his is the only one with no armor at all.

Lol, X-rays haven't been equal since the decision was made to make some of them safe on block.

 

[Muffinmuggers]

I think we all need to stop with this Buff, and and nerf buisness. Half of us complain on what again? Online matches. The thing with lag. honestly, reptiles dash, kung laos spin, kabals block string, all of this other stuff you guys are claiming that need to be taken out and givin is just absolutely ridiculous, People ask for put more start up frames, well then say bye bye too half of their combos. on Another note, GIVING SUB ZERO ARMOR ON A SLIDE, AND GO UNDER PROJECTICLES? ridiculous. It should be like Reptiles Slide. invincibility frames + under projectiles. Like this is honestly just a bit ridiculous. Kung laos spin is already fricken punishable. Kabals block string, Punishable. Reptiles dash, Punishable. Its just that this is the truth, A lot of players in the MK community have not reached the high level of gameplay, and just complain when getting beat. When Reaching the high levels of game play, I think The characters balance out pretty nice.

 

[Muffinmuggers]

Maybe buff Baraka, and stryker, Thats it in my opinion, nothing else needs nerfs. Ya'll ask for too much, just fix the lag.