The official buffs/nerfs discussion thread.

[Tom Brady]

Dark Rob: I can PROMISE you this site is similar to all the others in terms of new players knowing it all. SRK, 8wayrun.com (soul calibur), tekkenzaibatsu, etc. All the same. New players come in knowing everything and most new players are not hardcore tournament players, they are online players. Yet, leaders of the community can't exactly nicely say "stfu, you are wrong". There is no middle ground. Either way cater to everybody, or it turns into elitist snobs.

I have been to nationals for Soul Calibur and am considered a top player in that community. I am one of the best Cervantes players in the country. There is no NICE way for me to go into the Cervantes forums and tell people they are ignorant, need to man up and learn the "tournament" way

Nori is 100% correct..

this is why i leave the sub-zero boards alone right now and why i dont post any more in game knowledge in general. only 2 ways things happen..

#1. the self proclaimed experts post in a very "matter of fact but only on paper" sort of way and all that can be done to help them understand is to slap them with the truth. THE TRUTH.. that NO, you do not play at high level and neither do those around you. THE TRUTH.. that NO, you do not know what its like to take these strats into tourney play vs the best of the best. if you do that, the thread will EASILY turn into an argument where most will turn on you and call you arrogant, say you never say them play, etc etc etc...

and

#2 if you say "ok, i dont want an argument so i'm bowing out of this" then its "dont listen to the haters!!" or "dont be emo" lol or something along those lines... the second you "dont listen to the haters" the above paragraph happens and all the supporters join the haters and say "wow, i never knew he was so arrogant"..

the result? the best of the best eventually(having gone through this) know to remain silent at all times because they now know its a lose/lose...

1. they keep all strats to themselves, ignoring the character boards. instead their tourney footage is seen and then the strats are discussed by others in said characters forum.

2. never talk tiers or match ups on a forum, instead they offer that information at tournaments and others relay that info into msg boards.

3. never correct a self proclaimed expert, they just let all of them go around unchecked/ never EVER replay in a thread that has "self proclaimed experts welcome".

 

[PND_Mustard]

Nori is 100% correct..

this is why i leave the sub-zero boards alone right now and why i dont post any more in game knowledge in general. only 2 ways things happen..

#1. the self proclaimed experts post in a very "matter of fact but only on paper" sort of way and all that can be done to help them understand is to slap them with the truth. THE TRUTH.. that NO, you do not play at high level and neither do those around you. THE TRUTH.. that NO, you do not know what its like to take these strats into tourney play vs the best of the best. if you do that, the thread will EASILY turn into an argument where most will turn on you and call you arrogant, say you never say them play, etc etc etc...

and

#2 if you say "ok, i dont want an argument so i'm bowing out of this" then its "dont listen to the haters!!" or "dont be emo" lol or something along those lines... the second you "dont listen to the haters" the above paragraph happens and all the supporters join the haters and say "wow, i never knew he was so arrogant"..

the result? the best of the best eventually(having gone through this) know to remain silent at all times because they now know its a lose/lose...

1. they keep all strats to themselves, ignoring the character boards. instead their tourney footage is seen and then the strats are discussed by others in said characters forum.

2. never talk tiers or match ups on a forum, instead they offer that information at tournaments and others relay that info into msg boards.

3. never correct a self proclaimed expert, they just let all of them go around unchecked/ never EVER replay in a thread that has "self proclaimed experts welcome".

your logic is correct for the most part, however i feel that you dismiss too many players opinions as 'haters' or 'self proclaimed experts' some of the people i see disagree with a post of yours do actually have valid points of their own, based on their own tournament experiences, however on the flip side, there are a bunch of wannabe know it alls just out to try and boost their egos at the expense of well known players, i hope you arent throwing all these people in the same barrel so to speak, and it would be a shame for genuine sub zero players to miss out on your advice due to a handful of crybabies.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Main: Johnny Cage (Alt Costume 2)

Buffs: Cyber SZ *Damage output, Stryker *Something just needs to happen.

Nerfs: Mileena

This is the kind of thing Nori and Dark Rob are going on about.

Why would CSZ need damage output buffing considering he does 43% meterless and more in the corner, still no meter?

 

[shura30]

untill this one is still called discussion board or forum well you get all the pros and the cons

the cons are mostly internet related
trolls, haters, people who post worthless opinions
(f0xy you can't really quote someone asking for csz damage buffs)

the pros are in those silent lurkers that make treasure of all that is discussed here to improve and give that 'thank you' that makes the cons go away


keep in mind that if you feed them with drama
and you are all about 'i'm leaving the subzero forums'

that is called a ragequit, sir

 

[salvificblood]

Freddy could use a damage buff. 50% from a jump in leaves your opponent with 50% and lots of meter, giving them the advantage. He should get 75% at least or his ex sweet dreams should take away two bars of meter, to make sure nobody can breaker out halfway through the combo.

And he should laugh twice at the end of every combo.

 

[silva_777]

my two cents:

pros should share all they want explaning why they do those strats, and when they see people going on with bad strats explain why they don t work not that simply it doesnt work: dark rob you do this perfectely.

Noobs mid players, online players, offline players in small communities (i think i am all these) should voice their opinion with the knowledge they have, so they can be corrected. i have changed my mind in so many things just reading these forums but people should listen to everyone and explain their opinion not just saying random stuff

 

[Tom Brady]

untill this one is still called discussion board or forum well you get all the pros and the cons

the cons are mostly internet related
trolls, haters, people who post worthless opinions
(f0xy you can't really quote someone asking for csz damage buffs)

the pros are in those silent lurkers that make treasure of all that is discussed here to improve and give that 'thank you' that makes the cons go away


keep in mind that if you feed them with drama
and you are all about 'i'm leaving the subzero forums'

that is called a ragequit, sir

no, it is not drama to just bow out rather then argue. there is nothing i could say to "put things back on track" that would not start an argument.

arguments turn into "theory fighter 101" where you are now reading situations in hindsight rather in foresight... anyone can say, "ok.. well if he does this, just do that" and there is no way to win a theory fighter argument, those will go on for eternity. at some point you just have to let the player(s) know that they do not have your exp at high level play nor have they gone into battle at the highest level in tourneys or had your success doing so. in the end you basically have to say that YES... your opinion does hold more weight for those reasons. there is no nice way to do so, as Nori has pointed out.

the nice way is to say "ok" and move on and leave it alone.

 

[sLeeK]

Mains: reptile, sub, cage
Buff: the obvious low tier characters with minimal tool's
Nerf: Lao(LOW HAT MIX UP ONLY), "the leaky boat" cyrax(his 70% reset nonsense).
Explanation: What everyone else has said on this topic.

To the online players wanting nerfs for half the cast either learn to adapt or gtfo. If I can get punished online for reptiles dash by a total scrub. YOU CAN DO IT TO.... Find someone to practice with tell them to spam reptiles dash, learn your character's fastest special's/normal's, BINGO....

So tired of reading these statements "If kabals dash is blocked and it has so many recovery frames on it, reptiles should too. derrr" I mean really? I thought we were passed that? Or this one that came up recently "they should add a one second delay between his dashes" Yeah that sounds great, lets have sub whiff a slide and then not be able to punish it.. People seriously need to think before they speak. Reptile is fine period you can call me biased or whatever. If that is the case go watch some tournament play and watch how frequently reptiles dash gets punished on block. Then re-think your statement.

Online community needs to grow a pair.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

If you ever plan on playing in a tournament, or something important to that effect, honestly...shit like this shouldn't matter that much, as far as the random onliners calling for nerfs and buffs out the ass just to make their day easier. It's silly, and it's never gonna make them better. Learn the importance of training, dammit.

Pick your opponents, whoever your person(s) of interest in fighting may be.
Practice.
Practice.
Practice some more.
Make a sandwich.
Pee if you have to.
Practice some more.
Practice a little bit more.
Find humans who play this character and battle.
Judge results.
Make calculations as to what's going right, and what's going wrong.
Repeat process until awesome.

If you want to up your game, you need to learn to be prepared for anything.
Buffs and nerfs or no nuffs and berfs. I highly doubt a single change is gonna completely alter a fighter's measure that drastically.

I refer to my original argument from a previous thread: NO ONE in this game is Drahmin.
And to the best of my knowledge, there's never been a fighting game with an entire cast of top tier capable fighters.
You can't have a working body without some of the less pleasant organs, I guess.
If someone's miffed they don't have a "tourney-level main", that's the beauty of the game: they can LEARN SOMEONE WHO IS.
Then you've got your business fighter, AND your happy fun time fighter.
I go Cyrax when it's serious time, and Noob when I just wanna do the violence dance.
You've just gotta go with the flow. If it were easy, everybody'd be doing it.

Did anyone in the Deadly Alliance days ever put any effort into Drahmin? There HAS to be somebody.

 

[Tom Brady]

If you ever plan on playing in a tournament, or something important to that effect, honestly...shit like this shouldn't matter that much, as far as the random onliners calling for nerfs and buffs out the ass just to make their day easier. It's silly, and it's never gonna make them better. Learn the importance of training, dammit.

Pick your opponents, whoever your person(s) of interest in fighting may be.
Practice.
Practice.
Practice some more.
Make a sandwich.
Pee if you have to.
Practice some more.
Practice a little bit more.
Find humans who play this character and battle.
Judge results.
Make calculations as to what's going right, and what's going wrong.
Repeat process until awesome.

If you want to up your game, you need to learn to be prepared for anything.
Buffs and nerfs or no nuffs and berfs. I highly doubt a single change is gonna completely alter a fighter's measure that drastically.

I refer to my original argument from a previous thread: NO ONE in this game is Drahmin.
And to the best of my knowledge, there's never been a fighting game with an entire cast of top tier capable fighters.
You can't have a working body without some of the less pleasant organs, I guess.
If someone's miffed they don't have a "tourney-level main", that's the beauty of the game: they can LEARN SOMEONE WHO IS.
Then you've got your business fighter, AND your happy fun time fighter.
I go Cyrax when it's serious time, and Noob when I just wanna do the violence dance.
You've just gotta go with the flow. If it were easy, everybody'd be doing it.

Did anyone in the Deadly Alliance days ever put any effort into Drahmin? There HAS to be somebody.

what are you trying to say? ...

in MKDA drahmin was one of the top 4 characters in the game. lots of ppl put time into him. why are you even using drahmin as an example? and what do you mean by "NO ONE in this game is drahmin"?

 

[adpadbro]

Mains: Liu Kang, Kabal, Raiden, Sub Zero
Nerfs: None
Buffs: Liu Kangs's parry. Its a useless move as of right now, it doesn't parry projectiles, lows and there is only a few frames where it works unlike Cyber Subs or Kratos which are good parries. I am not asking for a projectile parry, but should increase the frames on which the move will work, you can't do it last second and you can't do it while anticipating either.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

what are you trying to say? ...

in MKDA drahmin was one of the top 4 characters in the game. lots of ppl put time into him. why are you even using drahmin as an example? and what do you mean by "NO ONE in this game is drahmin"?

...Really?

O.O

Well, knowing little of competitive things back then, that boggles my mind.
He drove me crazy on a regular basis, fighting him or trying to make use of him. I just assumed most would feel the same.

...Really? Top 4? I still have DA around here somewhere, point me in the direction of some tips on making him a monster, I'll gladly give it a shot.
I got no issues being proven wrong if it leads to having an excuse to break open an old favorite.

 

[Cerebru]

Sorry for the double post, but did you just suggest NRS buff Raiden? What the hell is wrong with you?

LOL ha i main raiden he needs no buffs..... i use that string all the time after that one guy saids finish him.... if thats not enough time you should drop em

 

[adpadbro]

No Drahmin time in Deadly Alliance, but Drahmin was my top 2 in Armageddon

 

[Tom Brady]

...Really?

O.O

Well, knowing little of competitive things back then, that boggles my mind.
He drove me crazy on a regular basis, fighting him or trying to make use of him. I just assumed most would feel the same.

...Really? Top 4? I still have DA around here somewhere, point me in the direction of some tips on making him a monster, I'll gladly give it a shot.
I got no issues being proven wrong if it leads to having an excuse to break open an old favorite.

first here is my MKDA system guide so you know the games's system properly: http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?1846-MKDA-the-complete-system-guide

my MKDA character guides. I only did half the cast, for years i have planned on finishing it but never got around to it: http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?1847-MKDA-In-Depth-Character-Guide&p=19006&viewfull=1#post19006

 

[Vulcan Hades]

We're talking about Drahmin now? What's going on? Where am I? What year is it?

 

[MK Peanuts]

Mains: Liu Kang, Kabal, Raiden, Sub Zero
Nerfs: None
Buffs: Liu Kangs's parry. Its a useless move as of right now, it doesn't parry projectiles, lows and there is only a few frames where it works unlike Cyber Subs or Kratos which are good parries. I am not asking for a projectile parry, but should increase the frames on which the move will work, you can't do it last second and you can't do it while anticipating either.

The parry doesn't need any change. The small window that the move is active and the fact that it won't parry certain moves are both intentional; they limit the kinds of situations you can feasibly use it in. Right now you can use it on wake up and to bait advancing special moves, and that's enough. It shouldn't have fast start up because then you could use it to interrupt frame traps and that would be crazy.

 

[Cerebru]

THIS! How bull is it we have a character whose projectiles can't be stuffed? Furthermore, I wish they'd make his ground saw not spawn behind him before going forward like it currently does. I'm sick of reading Kabal correctly, deep jumping/teleporting his saw only to get hit by it on the other side. Well, I guess it's not "correct reading" afterall but I feel like it should be.

Some things I'd like to see:
Cage flipkick truly punishable on block. A huge range shoryuken like that shouldn't be so safe on block. Upball is pretty much the same move and it's punishable...

A few more startup frames on KL's spin so it's not the be-all-end-all answer to pressure/frametraps.

A few more startup frames on Reptile's elbow dash, for the same reason above.

A few more startup frames on Raiden's teleport, for again the same reason.

Increase the d4/d1 hitboxes of Kitana, Mileena and Sonya a bit.

Give Stryker full armor on ex roll or most of his ex moves in general. If a kickass character like Rain can be swimming in armor, surely they can spare some for Stryker.

Give Sheeva's ex telestomp full armor. Right now it's a waste of a meter since it doesn't change the properties of the move or grant safety.

Make Baraka's ex blade charge fullscreen and/or make B3,1 safe on block.

As DanCock would say, "take the handcuffs off Sindel."

Leave raiden out of this!!!!! but i agree elbow dash effectiveness should start at the same point as raiden's superman

 

[RWDY Nori]

Mains: Liu Kang, Kabal, Raiden, Sub Zero
Nerfs: None
Buffs: Liu Kangs's parry. Its a useless move as of right now, it doesn't parry projectiles, lows and there is only a few frames where it works unlike Cyber Subs or Kratos which are good parries. I am not asking for a projectile parry, but should increase the frames on which the move will work, you can't do it last second and you can't do it while anticipating either.

Did you watch ATL_Redd's Liu Kang on the Evo stream? He sure had no problem doing parrys and it got him out of a LOT of situations. Also, if it parried lows/projectiles up close, you are now looking at the new most brainless char in the game. Say hi


It's really dissapointing there is no middle ground in any forums, including TYM. Top players can share tips all they want, but when people come in saying "No top player, you should have done THIS move instead, because when I play Dragonmaster 4000 down the street, it works on him. So it must work on everybody, because he's the BEST (insert your favorite char) player OUT THERE!". It also makes you want to do bodily harm to yourself when you know you are right and ignorance pops up and there is no way nice way to correct them

 

[Robotic]

Main:Sektor

Buff: Noob's X-ray name: Please change it to Dos Equis.

In all seriousness, the only thing that comes to mind is the 0 frame Kabal gamma blast and his Ground saw starting behind him. This is not including obvious system glitches and irregularities that were never meant to be included in the game. I think if these things get taken care of, maybe we should all just chill out and let this game breath for a hot minute before patches even get discussed again.

 

[Cerebru]

Cause then only 9 people would post

elamit: I actually do play Kabal. Maybe you should just be more clear when you post. And no, the mixups are still not hard. You are trying to make kabal's mixups execution like it's super dificult and most people will agree that it's really not

i agree with you.... but i must admit it took me a while to be able to keep kabal kaballin lol

 

[RWDY Nori]

In all seriousness, the only thing that comes to mind is the 0 frame Kabal gamma blast and his Ground saw starting behind him. This is not including obvious system glitches and irregularities that were never meant to be included in the game. I think if these things get taken care of, maybe we should all just chill out and let this game breath for a hot minute before patches even get discussed again.

This x1000. No nerfs/buffs are needed anymore. This game will never be 100% balanced, but we DO have the most balanced competitive fighting game at the moment. Fix some hit boxes and this game is perfect.

 

[Cerebru]

You cannot post erroneous information or make outlandish suggestions about buffs/nerfs/gameplay changes and expect not to be corrected. Like it or not these tourney players that say "you dont know what your talking about, learn the game" have good reason to say so. They are the best of the best and play the game at a much higher level than the rest of the community does. This is not an elitist position, its simply the facts.
One of the foundations TYM is built on is that it is a competitive site with strong ties to the tournament community. The idea is to have all the best players here. And we do. I could rattle off a whos who of the best players we have here from REO and Tom Brady to CD J.R 16 bit Crazy Dominican and more. All thes guys Im sure would like nothing more than to share the vast knowledge they have, and some do. But it strikes me as odd that the MK community seems like the only community where its up and comers feel they already know better than the best players do about how the game is and how it should be.

If the goal of a new player coming to TYM is to improve him/herself then wouldnt the first logical course of action be to shut up and listen? And learn?
To many people fall back on the old adage of "Everyone is entitled to they're opinion" That may well be, but it doesnt entitle the opinion to be worth anything. The opinion of a high level player who has a deep knowledge of the game should always be worth more than the opinion of someone who doesnt really know the game that well or have a deep understanding of it. Again this isnt elitist, just reasonable. Does this not seem logical to you?

I like this guy no homo...... lol

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

first here is my MKDA system guide so you know the games's system properly: http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?1846-MKDA-the-complete-system-guide

my MKDA character guides. I only did half the cast, for years i have planned on finishing it but never got around to it: http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?1847-MKDA-In-Depth-Character-Guide&p=19006&viewfull=1#post19006

Gracias, Senor Brady. Yes.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I dont mind being corrected by tourney players at all... I post my matchup opinions in the Sindel forums, the tourney players correct me, and I move on and get better. That is what these forums are for right? If people hate on you for correcting them, well.... haters gonna hate. I agree this place is turning into TRMK for all the hate of some of the tourney players but seriously just move on, if you play at tourneys and know what your talking about no butthurt loser is going to change that are they?

Mains: Sheeva, Baraka, Sindel

Buffs: Make Sindel able to 2,1 into scream. I think that along with EX step up having armor would make her more viable and give Sindel a few more combo options. I dont think it would be too overpowered, as I believe she lacks many combo option right now(I may be wrong, but thats what I see in playing her right now). At the very least, make her EX scream a little faster, to make it more viable.

Nerfs: Will not comment on nerfs, as I dont know any of the top tiers well enough to be able to discuss nerfs for them. And since im an online player, Kung Lao and Cyrax arent usually problems for me anyway, so it wont affect me personally. Im sure more well versed tourney players will be able to determine fair nerfs if some are needed