The official buffs/nerfs discussion thread.

[Past]

I get what you are saying. Tekken isn't crappy but it is infested w/Bob players. I've played Tekken in tournaments across the USA since T5 (I should have started w/TTT). Point being, at the highest level, it's not super balanced.

If you have hard numbers to prove AH3/BB is more popular than MK9 (MK9 outsold both) than again, I'll retract my statement. I'll still say that MK9 is the most balanced competitive FG right now. Evo is actually quite a good example. 500 people show up, in the top 8 you have 10 chars. That's not balance?

Since when is popularity in any way related to balance? You said that MK9 is most balanced competitive game out now, but I'm saying that this is not true. AH and BB are competitive games and they are more balanced than MK (this is not to say that MK's balance is not good, but it can be much better). Even at the level of core features, BB and AH blows MK out of the water with better training modes and the ability to save replays. I don't know why your trying to avoid comparing those games and instead compare it to Capcom's games. Capcom does not and should not set the standard for balance or core features in competitive fighting games. Doing that would be insulting MK9.

 

[RWDY Nori]

I don't get that; why would you want to use an xray in a combo?

If you are trying to close out a round, X-ray is fantastic because you cannot break it.

 

[King]

Mains: Noob Saibot/Sub Zero
BUFF: Noob Saibot/Scorpion/Cyber Sub/Quan Chi
NERF: Kung Lao/Kabal/Kitana/Reptile/Mileena/Cyrax

BUFF

Noob Saibot: Noob Saibot is meant to be a zoning character yet he gets outzoned by so many characters in this game - this is a problem. I suggest reading Trini_Bwoi's idea of making the Shadow Charge safe on block. This wouldn't make Noob so unsafe when zoning, but wouldn't really open up the door to any damage opportunities since dash blocking in will just prevent you from eating that Shadow Charge. Alongside his proposed 6 frame D1 and armor on EX Upknee, I think Noob is good to go.

Scorpion: Whiffed spear takes WAY too long to recover. It should be unsafe of course, but it shouldn't be "I'll go make a sandwich and punish it later" unsafe. Cut the amount of time it takes to recover right now in half for the whiffed spear. Give Scorpion some armor on EX teleport or give him a safe takedown.

Cyber Sub: Fix the stupid crap going on with his bombs not consistently freezing and make his bomb command be mapped to 4 and have slide mapped to 3.
This will fix the inability to dash in with 33/34, dash in throw, and dash in

Quan Chi: Speed up his F1,2 normal string or speed up his U3 overhead, give him full armor on EX Skydrop, and the ability to combo trance after the string. As it stands, it is too easy to block low by default against Quan and just react to his laughably slow U3 overhead.

NERF

Kung Lao: Make low hat recover much slower. In the 2,4 low hat nonsense, add 2-3 negative frames for Kung Lao.

Kabal: 0 frame projectile is garbage and I say this as a Kabal secondary This is the ONLY nerf Kabal needs.

Kitana: Fix her hitbox when she's performing D1.

Reptile: Add a more noticeable recoil animation for his blocked dash.

Mileena: Fix her retarded hitbox on D4.

Cyrax: Unescapable resets are bullshit and need to go.


I'd also like to add a few words about this whole Raiden uproar. I've seen a lot of people say Raiden is OP or "god tier" or "too good" because of his teleport - none of that is true. Raiden is just a good character because of his teleport. Aside from his teleport, Raiden has a relatively weak high/low game, moderately good strings, a fast but highly punishable special, and a decent sweep. Please don't let me hear anyone bringing up Raiden's VB trap as that thing is only good at catching people who are unaware of it or someone who just isn't paying attention. I don't understand why Raiden is hated so much for having his fast teleport and everyone thinks he needs a nerf on it when Reptile's dash escapes people's attention. Reptile's dash has no cooldown on whiff, can be done 2-3 times on wake-up to build meter and still be relatively safe, can move Reptile around the screen quickly, does damage, and in a 6 frame move. Raiden's teleport has a cooldown time, CANNOT be done 2-3 times on wake-up to build meter and be safe, DOESN'T do any damage, and comes out in 12 frames (twice is as slow as Reptile's dash.)

Let's look at this a different way. Let's remove Reptile's dash from his moves list and let's remove Raiden's teleport from his movelist. What is Reptile left with? Good zoning tools, good damage combos, a way to make his blockstrings relatively safe by cancelling into Acid Hand, very limited mobility, and a slide to punish a fair amount of things. If we remove Raiden's teleport, what do we have? HORRENDOUS zoning, very limited mobility, no way to make strings relatively safe, horrible mixups, and a fast special move.

What I'm trying to say here is that Raiden NEEDS his ultra fast teleport to be a viable character. If his teleport were punishable like Rain's teleport or even Freddy's teleport, Raiden would become shit really quickly.

 

[Sabin]

Since when is popularity in any way related to balance? You said that MK9 is most balanced competitive game out now, but I'm saying that this is not true. AH and BB are competitive games and they are more balanced than MK (this is not to say that MK's balance is not good, but it can be much better). Even at the level of core features, BB and AH blows MK out of the water with better training modes and the ability to save replays. I don't know why your trying to avoid comparing those games and instead compare it to Capcom's games. Capcom does not and should not set the standard for balance or core features in competitive fighting games. Doing that would be insulting MK9.

this actually is very true. cant speak for bb but arcana has the best balance out of all the modern fighters. though didnt low tier get into grand finals at evo for bb? pretty good too.

 

[Raiman]

I'd also like to add a few words about this whole Raiden uproar. I've seen a lot of people say Raiden is OP or "god tier" or "too good" because of his teleport - none of that is true. Raiden is just a good character because of his teleport. Aside from his teleport, Raiden has a relatively weak high/low game, moderately good strings, a fast but highly punishable special, and a decent sweep. Please don't let me hear anyone bringing up Raiden's VB trap as that thing is only good at catching people who are unaware of it or someone who just isn't paying attention. I don't understand why Raiden is hated so much for having his fast teleport and everyone thinks he needs a nerf on it when Reptile's dash escapes people's attention. Reptile's dash has no cooldown on whiff, can be done 2-3 times on wake-up to build meter and still be relatively safe, can move Reptile around the screen quickly, does damage, and in a 6 frame move. Raiden's teleport has a cooldown time, CANNOT be done 2-3 times on wake-up to build meter and be safe, DOESN'T do any damage, and comes out in 12 frames (twice is as slow as Reptile's dash.)

Let's look at this a different way. Let's remove Reptile's dash from his moves list and let's remove Raiden's teleport from his movelist. What is Reptile left with? Good zoning tools, good damage combos, a way to make his blockstrings relatively safe by cancelling into Acid Hand, very limited mobility, and a slide to punish a fair amount of things. If we remove Raiden's teleport, what do we have? HORRENDOUS zoning, very limited mobility, no way to make strings relatively safe, horrible mixups, and a fast special move.

What I'm trying to say here is that Raiden NEEDS his ultra fast teleport to be a viable character. If his teleport were punishable like Rain's teleport or even Freddy's teleport, Raiden would become shit really quickly.

Raiden has alot more than your giving him credit for, but your right, removing dash from Reptile would hurt him far less than removing teleport from Raiden.
People may say i'm a cry baby but if Raidens advantage on vb goes to 0 and his teleport gains 2 more recovery frame to where any normal can punish on reaction, i'm not sure if i'll use him anymore. that would make his 40-42% combos impossible and ruin his mix up teleporting between strings. and actually from start to finish teleport is 27 frames, so i really dont see how its that hard to punish if people can punish 5 frame attacks with less recovery(dash).
i honestly believe if they nerf teleport again and vb Raiden will need to get new mix ups. Probably not even ones to combo after, just something better than 22b4. But Raidens my alt now anyway so even if he is worse after the patch i still got my armored Subz coming soon

 

[King]

Raiden has alot more than your giving him credit for, but your right, removing dash from Reptile would hurt him far less than removing teleport from Raiden.
People may say i'm a cry baby but if Raidens advantage on vb goes to 0 and his teleport gains 2 more recovery frame to where any normal can punish on reaction, i'm not sure if i'll use him anymore. that would make his 40-42% combos impossible and ruin his mix up teleporting between strings. and actually from start to finish teleport is 27 frames, so i really dont see how its that hard to punish if people can punish 5 frame attacks with less recovery(dash).
i honestly believe if they nerf teleport again and vb Raiden will need to get new mix ups. Probably not even ones to combo after, just something better than 22b4. But Raidens my alt now anyway so even if he is worse after the patch i still got my armored Subz coming soon

Exactly my point here. If the teleport would be nerfed, then Raiden would need a buff to his shit projectile or some buffs to some of his strings. VB is pretty much useless as it is now...unless... they make the VB unduckable but still leave it at 0 frames... :evilgrin:

Raiden would become a teleporting Kabal at that point lol.

 

[Raiman]

Exactly my point here. If the teleport would be nerfed, then Raiden would need a buff to his shit projectile or some buffs to some of his strings. VB is pretty much useless as it is now...unless... they make the VB unduckable but still leave it at 0 frames... :evilgrin:

Raiden would become a teleporting Kabal at that point lol.

if you use the vb at the end of strings then yes its basically useless because they'll always duck it, the mix up comes in when you do 33 then vb. that way if they try to duck and punish the vb they could guess wrong and you could finish with 4 instead for an overhead combo. If they make it 0 on block though, the opponent would never duck to try and punish because you wouldn't have that big advantage anymore. they would have nothing to fear.
The only use it will hav now is to check people or to make strings more safe, witch still wouldnt work on some characters. And if teleport gets nerfed again you might as well not ever teleport on reptile or kung lao, you'll get punished every single time. Reptile will have a field day with raiden after patch

 

[Doctor_V]

Nerf Cage F+32 but make nut punch low. Mileena ball roll low but punishable by combo of choice if blocked. And buff characters like sheeva/baraka/stryker/sindel/Jade/Jax/Quan...Get rid of Jax's infinte corner combos and make overhead smash bounce. Make some of his lows strings and let him block after a cancel gp.

Nerf Cyraxs 70% resets. I guess his 55% 1 bar combos can stay but all those unbreakable resets need to go. Nerf KL spin which their doing and make low hat strings 0 or negative. Make Reptile dash punishable by combo of choise on block. Similar to a kabal blocked dash. Keep Raiden as is. Don't touch his teleport but put less frames on VB. Make NW F+3 a low but couple frames slower. Make Ermacs EX teleport like Scorpions and bring back his 22 combo starter. Fix CSZ bombs and make the person freeze at al times. If cyrax can launch you in the air for big damage why cant CSZ at least get a freeze. Leave Kitana alone. Maybe you can nerf her damage by a couple percent. Nerf Liu kang B+312 damage. Easiest combo in the game. Its a brainless combo and does in the mid 30%...Nerf it to 28%. But buff Liu's parry like CSZ. Bring back Smoke OTG BOMB! That shit was tight and actually required strict timing.

Buff Noobs zoning. His close up is straight up garbage and make his recovery on clones quicker. Hes meant to be a zoner. Why is he getting outzoned by guys like liu kang.

I think Smoke EX away/towards should have super armor as well.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Nerf Cage F+32 but make nut punch low. Mileena ball roll low. And buff characters like sheeva/baraka/stryker/sindel/Jade/Jax...Get rid of Jax's infinte corner combos and make overhead smash bounce. Make some of his lows strings and let him block after a cancel gp. That is all. And the obvious nerfs to the god tier.

Cage would be broken with a low nutpunch. F33B3 ends in an overhead imagine F33nutpunch thats a 50/50 off of that 1 string and either one on hit is advantage by quite a lot.

Mileenas roll should never be low because it beats any normal projectile, SZ players would love to be able to do that
Jax has block infinites but no infinite corner combo, the combos should stay in considering they take meter and his midscreen game is pretty bad.

 

[Doctor_V]

Cage would be broken with a low nutpunch. F33B3 ends in an overhead imagine F33nutpunch thats a 50/50 off of that 1 string and either one on hit is advantage by quite a lot.

Mileenas roll should never be low because it beats any normal projectile, SZ players would love to be able to do that
Jax has block infinites but no infinite corner combo, the combos should stay in considering they take meter and his midscreen game is pretty bad.

I agree about the low nut punch. That would be pretty beast. I guess im still pissed about F+32 nut punch being gone. I think if jax overhead smash bounced or his F+4 strings launched then that would help his mid screen game. And possibly a damage buff too. But corner combos taken out too. Cancel GP to block has to happen.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

I agree with the Noob safe Shadow Charge buff. I was outstandingly happy when they announced that hed have aa 6 frame d1 and armor on EXUpknee.
Other than Noob tho, how do these sound?

-Ermac: b1 hits overhead
-Quan Chi: faster f12, trance after 21u4, armor on EXSkydrop

Thoughts?

 

[rev0lver]

With regard to Noobs zoning, I really see no reason for a buff there. You think his close up game is crap? Try Sindel. Noob has his black hole resets while Sindel has 20% combos.

The reason he shouldn't be able to straight up zone without interference is because there needs to be an opportunity for the other char to take a timing advantage (that's the only way kang can do it). Additionally, there needs to be time to jump over clones. It'd be pretty unfair if your char lacks a mid-air move if he could zone faster. A shadow clone could hit you on the way down. A char like cage or jax, for example, would have literally zero option if they are about to be killed with chip damage and they're at mid/fullscreen.

 

[Farpafraf]

Main:Ermac
Buff:sheeva, baraka,striker,sindel,noob,quan-chi
Nerf:KUNG LAO,raiden, reptile,skarlet,freddy.

Sheeva:in a few words she sucks
Baraka:maybe some little damage buff or things like this for the rest is ok.
striker:he's way too slow I mean ok he should be a zoning character i think but if the opponent get near you are dead meat his only good move is the gun.
Sindelamage buff
Noob: he's ok but his normals are slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow
Quan-chi:I don't know but like this he sucks

Kung lao:need I to explain?
Raiden:too fast, his teleport is really bad ass his normals and specials are both great
Reptile:too strong
Skarlet: please nerf her back throw and 60% combos
Freddy:nerf his damage scaling 70% combos

Wish list:If they make ermac EX teleport like scorpion's one I'll be very happy

 

[TyrantRevolver]

-Ermac: b1 hits overhead

Thoughts?

As much as I would love to see Ermac with a good overhead, and as happy as this would make me...... I somehow don't think the rest of the "non-ermac" playing community would be as thrilled...

On second thought what the hell - They should so do this XD

 

[Trini_Bwoi]

With regard to Noobs zoning, I really see no reason for a buff there. You think his close up game is crap? Try Sindel. Noob has his black hole resets while Sindel has 20% combos.

The reason he shouldn't be able to straight up zone without interference is because there needs to be an opportunity for the other char to take a timing advantage (that's the only way kang can do it). Additionally, there needs to be time to jump over clones. It'd be pretty unfair if your char lacks a mid-air move if he could zone faster. A shadow clone could hit you on the way down. A char like cage or jax, for example, would have literally zero option if they are about to be killed with chip damage and they're at mid/fullscreen.

C'mon blackhole resets, even the worst of players can escape those. And Sindel can get around 29-31% midscreen no meter off a jump in punch. Anyways both their close up games are comparatively crap. Now I don't want Noob's shadows to get faster recovery but...really it's not surprising that people would discuss that. Both his projectiles are only even on block from fullscreen, and there are projectiles (Kitana's, Sonya's, Quan Chi's) that are safe on block from point blank range. Then you have the characters that have iAFs... Noob's projectiles do have advantages over those though like their startup, speed, and hitbox...but are those good enough to outweigh the huge recovery? Anyhow obviously no one wants it to be fast enough where if you jump one another one can come before you land but it's far away from that now.

 

[Reedoms]

With regard to Noobs zoning, I really see no reason for a buff there. You think his close up game is crap? Try Sindel. Noob has his black hole resets while Sindel has 20% combos.

But Noobs highest combo is barely even 16%, 20 if you jump in punch.
Also, Blackhole resets are easy as hell to escape.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

What about making all of Noob's normals (save for 2) 2 frames faster?

Overhead EXTackle?
Fixed hitbox on Tele?
EXUpknee actually doing something about crossups?
Keep portal lay-down the same, but make them last a tenth of a second longer on the ground?

All these changes would help Noob drastically and not alter any matchups he currently has.

 

[Reedoms]

What about making all of Noob's normals (save for 2) 2 frames faster?

Overhead EXTackle?
Fixed hitbox on Tele?
EXUpknee actually doing something about crossups?
Keep portal lay-down the same, but make them last a tenth of a second longer on the ground?

All these changes would help Noob drastically and not alter any matchups he currently has.

Tackle is going to be an Overhead next patch and the Teleslam is getting fixed as well.
Armor on Ex-Upknee is a maybe and portals are fine the way they are.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

The normal or EXTackle? :O

 

[Trini_Bwoi]

The normal or EXTackle? :O

Normal's the word.

How about making Noob's projectiles Unshakable and Unflashable like all of Kenshi's? That would help with the bad Smoke, Jade and Freddy matchups, Smoke will still have his teleport to get in and Jade her EX kick/glow. Kenshi's a zoner just like Noob...

 

[Farpafraf]

give him a spin....
ok stop trolling noob isn't so bad but his tackle needs to hits Overhead his teleslam must be fixed and his EX-upknee needs to have 1 hit of armor that's all in my opinion

 

[TakeAChance]

noobs tackle needs to hit overhead...you have got to be kidding me. :facepalm:

 

[rev0lver]

this is one of the most ridiculous not thought out at all buffs in the thread.

I'm just wondering Tom, do you still think fullscreen Baraka blade charge is one of the most ridiculous not thought out at all buffs in this thread? Because it's now in the game and I haven't heard any complaints.

 

[aj1701]

If you are trying to close out a round, X-ray is fantastic because you cannot break it.

Ya that I get, but people do xray combos that WON'T end the round, not by a long shot.

 

[Trini_Bwoi]

noobs tackle needs to hit overhead...you have got to be kidding me. :facepalm:

lol this guy