The Newest Mortal Kombat (9) Tier List

[Slego]

I would say Noob is also a bad matchup for sonya.

Or I might just be terribad at the matchup, but it seems most of her tools to get in are nullified minus an ex kartwheel. I get the distinct impression that the Noobs I beat I beat because they made a bunch of mistakes.

 

[Death]

Kenshi is Mileenas only bad matchup? WTF i thought that was 5-5. I think KL should be her bad matchup.

 

[Drayn0]

lol why not just put the enitre cast as a bad matchup for skarlet.

 

[Past]

F Tier Characters (13+ bad match ups)

Jade: Cage, Ermac, Freddy, Kabal, Jax, Kitana, Kung Lao, Liu Kang, Mileena, Reptile, Raiden, Smoke, Sonya

I can't believe that at this stage, you guys are still adamant about overrating Jade.
1. Where is Kenshi? Jade cannot flash through his "projectiles", giving him complete control over the match
2. Where is Nightwolf? Not being able to flash his unblockable lightning, makes her just as vulnerable to lighting/shoulder as anyone
3. Cyber Sub-Zero? What answer does she have for dive kicks?
4. Cyrax is also a bad matchup. Cyrax has little problems getting in on Jade where he outdamages her, has better strings, and can abuse them to his heart's content until he gets 50+% combo.

There are also some arguable ones like Sector and Baraka.


On another note, I disagree with the entire format of this list. It effectively treats 4-6 bad matchups the same as a 3-7 or a 2-8 matchup, which is ridiculous. We need a tier list based on matchup data. After that, you can adjust for weighted average to find out who is "competitively viable".

 

[M2Dave]

One question, how is Cyber Sub Zero not a bad matchup for Kano?

Why would he be? Just do not abuse knives at mid range. Kano has no issues with the dive kick otherwise. Not only can he AA dive kicks with the up ball, the horizontal ball punishes all dive kicks on block, even when they are spaced perfectly. Also, f+3,b+2 is no longer parriable, which is a very big deal.

Kano is solid. I think NRS tried their best to make the character good again. The problem is Kabal, Mileena, Cyrax, etc. are just better characters. He would need one strong buff to become S tier.

By the way, I have added Kung Lao to Sheeva's list of bad match ups. He was omitted unintentionally.

 

[THTB]

Jade's footsies are just as good as Sub's. Just like how Sub can d4~clone, Jade can d4~staff grab. Sub can't risk throwing fireballs since it can be punished on reaction. That being said I thinks it is a fair matchup for both characters.
However, I do believe that her gameplay design (I don't think even believe NRS even had one) creates many bad matchups, however, 11+ generates a lot of concern and will turn people away from a character that no one picked in the first place. That why I want to know what's going on.

The difference between Sub and Jade's d4 is that Sub's is faster, has more range and his offense compliments the normal as it is. It is fast enough to bully with, and the frame advantage on hit helps Sub get in and use other strings...or he can drop a delayed clone if Jade gets antsy and wants to jump over him to stop his d4ing. Jade can d4 xx grab with a slower d4, but again, grab falls in the same category as her other ranged pokes, and d4 is too slow for its small range.

 

[M2Dave]

On another note, I disagree with the entire format of this list. It effectively treats 4-6 bad matchups the same as a 3-7 or a 2-8 matchup, which is ridiculous. We need a tier list based on matchup data. After that, you can adjust for weighted average to find out who is "competitively viable".

REO did Jade's match ups, so he can respond to you if he wishes to do so.

I guarantee you that a tier list based on a match up chart would look very similiar to the current tier list. Besides, the community does not have adequate players to present each character at a high level. Also, there are always questions about match up charts, even in fighting games as widespread as SSFIV: AE. More or less, the community already knows which characters are tournament viable and which ones are not.

 

[Past]

More or less, the community already knows which characters are tournament viable and which ones are not.

Obviously no one does since this thread as well as every other "tier" always results in arguing over underrated/overrated characters.

 

[Panque]

I think Baraka (!) and maybe Noob Saibot are bad matchups for Sub as well. Or we might keep saying Sub-Zero is A tier for the sake of trolling Brady and appreciating his salt when he loses his next tournament, that sounds good too. ance:

About why Baraka has the upper hand on this matchup, Dark Rob wrote this and I agree with him:

Mostly because of EX Blade charge. Its fully armored, moves incredibly fast, covers full screen, is much safer than it was previously even when relatively close, and it hits mid. Think of it as a better verision of Nightwolfs EX shoulder dash because you cant even duck it and punish. Frankly as Subzero when Baraka has meter you cannot do anything. Even at full screen he can punish you on reaction for doing anything. Up close your block strings become unsafe even when finished with clone because EX blade charge can go right through them and punish you.
When Baraka knocks you down and starts to pressure you shit can get really hairy. His main launcher string is advantage on block and builds him meter. You have to guess between whether he will use the advantage to poke,cross over jump and do the string again,throw, or just do the string again because he makes you hesitate because of all the other options. You cannot sit and wait your way out either. You must guess. You cannot afford to let Baraka build all that meter and do nothing about it.
It all comes down to meter. Baraka can safely build meter easily in this matchup while stopping subzero from building meter himself.
It may seem backwards but Baraka can turtle Sub to death while Sub is forced to play aggressively(and somewhat recklessly) against Baraka to try and stay in the meter game. Because Sub cant build meter in any other way.

About Noob, I know Strings like b121 make Noob look like a child lost from his parents, but I still think Sub has to work harder on this one... Might be just me tho.

 

[M2Dave]

Obviously no one does since this thread as well as every other "tier" always results in arguing over underrated/overrated characters.

People argue about "small things", such as whether Ermac is B or C tier, whether Jade is underrated or overrated, and so on. In the end, these arguments do not matter because these characters are not top tier characters. In terms of tournament viable characters, the community already knows who these characters are. Very few people would disagree that Kabal, Raiden, Cyrax, Mileena, etc. are ranked too high.

About Noob, I know Strings like b121 make Noob look like a child lost from his parents, but I still think Sub has to work harder on this one... Might be just me tho.

I am sure other Sub Zero players would agree with you, but Noob can do nothing but zone. His damage potential is very low. His footsies are average at best. If you understand how to corner him and keep him in the corner, you can win. Aside from shadow upknee, his defense is not very good. His low pokes are garbage, and shadow upknee can be crossed up in certain cirumstances.

 

[MK Peanuts]

I think Baraka (!) and maybe Noob Saibot are bad matchups for Sub as well. Or we might keep saying Sub-Zero is A tier for the sake of trolling Brady and appreciating his salt when he loses his next tournament, that sounds good too. ance:

About why Baraka has the upper hand on this matchup, Dark Rob wrote this and I agree with him:



About Noob, I know Strings like b121 make Noob look like a child lost from his parents, but I still think Sub has to work harder on this one... Might be just me tho.

Having played a bit of Baraka vs Sub Zero with my good pal CptXecution, I'm inclined to agree with you. If you play super lame and EX Blade Charge on reaction to Sub pushing buttons, it seems tough for Sub to get a whole lot started.

 

[Zoidberg747]

If someone can tell me how to build meter against sub(as baraka) I will gladly say it is a bad matchup. Still not convinced on that

Edit: I see dark rob's point, I guess I will hold my reservations until I can play the matchup offline.

 

[CY MasterHavik]

Jax: Johnny Cage, Mileena, Raiden, Sonya

I pretty much agree with all three besides the last one. What Sonya do to Jax? I think that match up is even.

 

[Helter Skelter]

I've been trying not to post in this thread because it's actually offensive and some of the posts are extremely racist and infraction worthy.

Anyway, 3 people made there own tier list. Cool, I'm down with that. However, I have to ask one question to you guys (especially REO). How did Mileena make her way so far up the tier list when you said "Mileena is fun but doesn't have what it take to win a major."?

You did very well at EVO (you beasted) and in my head I always knew Mileena was capable (as is most of the cast, personally). However, I don't get how you guys managed to rank her so high, when she supposedly didn't have what it take before hand. Considering the majority of the other characters have had some sort of buff, the wakeup system is now working for so many characters other than herself and most importantly people actually know more about the game and what to look out for. I'd like a 'detailed' explanation from the three of you if you don't mind.

I think she's one of the best characters in the game and perfectely viable for tournaments.

However, I myself believe when someone has a life lead against her she struggles. How can you telekick, roll, U+3, B+3 when some has the life lead and can just wait around crouching blocking (and reacting to U+3s and throws)? If she gets knocked down, how does she get off the floor safely, when she can't even spend meter to get off the floor with a safe armored move because she hasn't got one.

Lastly, what make Sektor so much worse than her?


Any input would be appreciated.

 

[JacopeX]

On another note, I disagree with the entire format of this list. It effectively treats 4-6 bad matchups the same as a 3-7 or a 2-8 matchup, which is ridiculous. We need a tier list based on matchup data. After that, you can adjust for weighted average to find out who is "competitively viable".

I agree with this totally!

 

[Panque]

I am sure other Sub Zero players would agree with you, but Noob can do nothing but zone. His damage potential is very low. His footsies are average at best. If you understand how to corner him and keep him in the corner, you can win. Aside from shadow upknee, his defense is not very good. His low pokes are garbage, and shadow upknee can be crossed up in certain cirumstances.

Every bad matchup is winnable IF you work harder, and imo that's what sub has to do on this one. Maybe I'ts 5-5, but I still think it's 4-6.

I'm yet to see how Baraka can be an even matchup for sub tho. I Really think he should be added to the list, making Sub B-Tier, which would probably cause a lot of butthurt, but let's not censor the truth because of it.

EDIT: If any american player disagrees with me, I will say that y'all are a bunch of racists, know that beforehand.

 

[Sand-man]

Chuck norris don't approve this tier list...END

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Every bad matchup is winnable IF you work harder, and imo that's what sub has to do on this one. Maybe I'ts 5-5, but I still think it's 4-6.

I'm yet to see how Baraka can be an even matchup for sub tho. I Really think he should be added to the list, making Sub B-Tier, which would probably cause a lot of butthurt, but let's not censor the truth because of it.

EDIT: If any american player disagrees with me, I will say that y'all are a bunch of racists, know that beforehand.

I'd say they are both 5-5. Noob has a tough time off knockdown against Sub, he has to guess a ton in this matchup, but so does Sub. Trading a shadow with Ice isn't very favorable, but Noob can now tele slam ice ball. Sub wins up close, and both win in the corner.

Baraka can't zone sub, however he can space his blade charge to hit him when he is behind a clone. I think Sub overall wins this battle because he has better footsie and can pile the pressure on Baraka. What makes it a 5-5 (imho) is that Baraka builds his meter by getting hit, which in turn makes him deadlier to Sub. Baraka also has a few frame traps to throw out there to pressure as well. Sub wins in the corner hands down, blade charge is useless there.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I've been trying not to post in this thread because it's actually offensive and some of the posts are extremely racist and infraction worthy.

Anyway, 3 people made there own tier list. Cool, I'm down with that. However, I have to ask one question to you guys (especially REO). How did Mileena make her way so far up the tier list when you said "Mileena is fun but doesn't have what it take to win a major."?

You did very well at EVO (you beasted) and in my head I always knew Mileena was capable (as is most of the cast, personally). However, I don't get how you guys managed to rank her so high, when she supposedly didn't have what it take before hand. Considering the majority of the other characters have had some sort of buff, the wakeup system is now working for so many characters other than herself and most importantly people actually know more about the game and what to look out for. I'd like a 'detailed' explanation from the three of you if you don't mind.

I think she's one of the best characters in the game and perfectely viable for tournaments.

However, I myself believe when someone has a life lead against her she struggles. How can you telekick, roll, U+3, B+3 when some has the life lead and can just wait around crouching blocking (and reacting to U+3s and throws)? If she gets knocked down, how does she get off the floor safely, when she can't even spend meter to get off the floor with a safe armored move because she hasn't got one.

Lastly, what make Sektor so much worse than her?


Any input would be appreciated.

That was a totally different game. This game is not the same that was played at EVO. So ... thats a moot argument.
She is good because she has THE BEST footsie in the game. All characters (sans Cyrax) struggle when they don't have a life lead. Mileena's tools put her in a position that she can not be effectively zoned, and can also bully you up close. Kenshi blows her up because he is made of fucking armor and can keep her at bay the entire match.... taking away her footsie and zoning which is top notch.

A bad matchup is a bad matchup, regardless of 6-4, 7-3... everyone has come to find that there probably aren't many match ups worse than 7-3, and of those, There aren't many.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

Why is Mileena a bad MU for Cage? I know you guys don't particularly like F0xy, but he's a smart guy; tired of this Euro vs US garbage. Anyways, he sums it up perfectly. I understand that the theory is "Well, she can iAS" which she can, but it's still an awful MU for her. Besides B3 ball roll and sais she has nothing here.


Cage Vs Mileena 6/4 - All of her specials are punishable by B3, making Cage one of a few characters able to punish her with a full combo. If you are close enough you can knock her out of the air after her air sai with a AA jab. Forceball frametraps work on her perfectly and F3 beats her D4. If you sniff out that the Mileena player is going to do U4 against you just press 11, it will anti air her kick and end her in a nutpunch. She has no armour moves so no easy way out of the beating. Since shes a pretty jump happy character anti air 1 is sick against her.

Also, Sonya is a 5/5 for Cage. Considering that F0xy plays both of these characters on a competitive level, I trust this to be accurate as well.

Cage Vs Sonya 5/5 - If they find a space to jump out you can eat a divekick for 40%, if you block a divekick they can eat at least a F33nutpunch or if they're close enough a B3, so the risk in theory is relatively equal. Sonya will beat you in a range war though, her upclose game is different, but by no means less intimidating, anti air jabbing her is a risk and at the end of every block string she does you have to guess between the 5 options she has. Throw, low, overhead, blockstring, crossover.

http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?11966-The-Real-Johnny-Cage-Match-up-Chart

Put these four in Cage's bad MUs:

Cage Vs Kenshi 4/6 - This fight is a bastard. Everytime you get hit by his shoulder you're going to be running the gauntlet of projectiles again. Hes most likely the perfect counter Cage, most of his Ex moves are armoured. You're just gonna have to bulldog your way in, AVOID THE SHOULDER AT ALL COSTS. You can duck underneathe the flurry but dont forget that he has an overhead slice. Because Kenshi has armour coming out of his ass it means that you're gonna have to make a read and predict when hes going to do the armour move, because he WILL do the armour move. Use this to get a crossover into a combo/blockstring.

Cage Vs Ermac 4/6 - Even though Ermac has a crap time getting Cage off of him, the fact that he is a crazy zoner and has a hitbox that disables Cages forceballs and means that you're gonna have to use the F33 less means that hes already cut down your options. Dont jump, dash block. You can use your meter for Ex nutpunches to get out of his 312 mixups since you wont need it for anything else other than Xray. If you block a push from a little more than max distance you should be able to dash in and get a hit in on block. Use your D4 carefully, its the best way to gain advantage, but you dont want to over use it.

Cage Vs Skarlet 4/6 - Her damage is high + she has a reset aswell, that wouldn't be so bad if she couldnt Ex dash between Cages upclose game and punish him with a launcher. But obviously its not a gauranteed thing, so be careful what makes the Skarlet player want to Ex Dash. If they do and overhead slice you can combo punish her, other than that her low slide will always give her space to move. To get near to her you just have to dash block, obviously her dagger nerf will make it easier to get closer but its still a pain.

Cage Vs Noob 4/6 - I can't find his summary so I'll have to do my own; I've played a high level Noob locally. Between hopping over the mixup clones and the up knee this MU is a pain in the ass. It's the same concept of the Kenshi MU.

 

[Trini_Bwoi]

Cage Vs Noob 4/6 - I can't find his summary so I'll have to do my own; I've played a high level Noob locally. Between hopping over the mixup clones and the up knee this MU is a pain in the ass. It's the same concept of the Kenshi MU.

I think it's equally a pain in the ass for Noob to get out of Cage's pressure with his lack or armor, 8 frame so he has to rely on , and no good GTF off me move.

Noob: Cyrax, Freddy, Kabal, Kung Lao, Raiden, Reptile, Smoke

How about Mileena? She really restricts him with the iASs and teleport kick.

 

[Prinz]

Ok, having the match-up chart right there, here's my 2 cents.
The only character I feel I can say a word is Jade, cause I play only her.
She's a bad match-up for sure for: Sindel, Noob, Sub-Zero, Cyrax.
Maybe bad match-up for (in my opinion): Kitana.

About Cyrax: he's definitely not a bad match-up. The only thing he has is damage. He can not rely on net/bombs setups against Jade, period. Flash on wake-up dismisses both net and (sometimes) bombs (better use flash kick or overhead staff). Does Cyrax have anti-wake-up better than net/bomb? No. I'd like to hear Mustard's opinion or UsedForGlue's.

About Kitana: definitely not a bad match-up. Again, she can not rely on fans in this match, which puts her in S tier position. The only thing really gets bad is fanlift on wake-up (Jade doesn't have to stay close to Kitana) or sqareboost from far (pretty readable, but not so punishable when in air). I'd give Kitana a 5-5, but I feel Jade can do 6-4, it's just my experience...

About Freddy: I have played very few matches, not to say players. I'll believe M2Dave on this one for now, but I'm not sure. Freddy does have weak up-close, right? His projectiles don't really do much, except for the frametraps with them ground spikes. Anyway, I'll leave it as is.

About Sub-Zero: my point remains as stated in another post. Sub-Zero has problems with Jade: ice not working, slide punished with 30%+ combo, I can even Glow and get in for a 30%+ combo. I firmly believe it's bad for Sub.

About Noob: his upknee and teleport are really big problems here. If he didn't have his teleport he'd be screwed. I believe it's slightly in Jade's favor, but it's definitely harder than Sub-Zero as uncool as it may sound.

The rest of Jade's bad match-ups listed in the OP are pretty accurate. Again, all of this is relative and based on my experience playing 99% Jade only since launch.

Also, I could elaborate more on the given match-ups if you like. Just came to mind how I can time overhead staff to let Sub-Zero's iceball/slide pass under and punish both, although it's harder done than said

Oh, yeah, one last thing. F (fucked-up) tier? This is fucking unacceptable LoL

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Dave...I tend to like the additions and fixes you made to the tier list. Not bad at all really. When I have more time I'm going to out down my thoughts on nightwolf but I can't say there is much I disagree with right now.

Good job.

 

[Panque]

I'd say they are both 5-5. Noob has a tough time off knockdown against Sub, he has to guess a ton in this matchup, but so does Sub. Trading a shadow with Ice isn't very favorable, but Noob can now tele slam ice ball. Sub wins up close, and both win in the corner.

Baraka can't zone sub, however he can space his blade charge to hit him when he is behind a clone. I think Sub overall wins this battle because he has better footsie and can pile the pressure on Baraka. What makes it a 5-5 (imho) is that Baraka builds his meter by getting hit, which in turn makes him deadlier to Sub. Baraka also has a few frame traps to throw out there to pressure as well. Sub wins in the corner hands down, blade charge is useless there.

Fucking racist

Seriously tho, I don't think Noob has to guess that much at all, at least not as much as sub has... safe upknee scraps most of Sub-Zero's options, aside from trowing an Ice Blast which is quite an unsafe thing to do. The reward is not that great either since Sub's damage output is low. I also find zoning to be much easier and safer than pressuring, but that might be just me.

I don't have much luck when trying to corner Baraka. Baraka can stuff clone without meter and has no trouble to come close and pressure when needing a life lead, while sub seems to have a VERY hard time to get near a turtling Baraka. The spin works great against jump-ins and that chop-chop attack can punish your D4 pressure on wakeup. This matchup sure isn't 3-7, but imo it's another one where sub has to work harder than his opponent. I'd say it's easily 4-6.

 

[M2Dave]

Why is Mileena a bad MU for Cage? I know you guys don't particularly like F0xy, but he's a smart guy; tired of this Euro vs US garbage. Anyways, he sums it up perfectly. I understand that the theory is "Well, she can iAS" which she can, but it's still an awful MU for her. Besides B3 ball roll and sais she has nothing here.

Cage Vs Mileena 6/4 - All of her specials are punishable by B3, making Cage one of a few characters able to punish her with a full combo. If you are close enough you can knock her out of the air after her air sai with a AA jab. Forceball frametraps work on her perfectly and F3 beats her D4. If you sniff out that the Mileena player is going to do U4 against you just press 11, it will anti air her kick and end her in a nutpunch. She has no armour moves so no easy way out of the beating. Since shes a pretty jump happy character anti air 1 is sick against her.

Why would Mileena use the telekick unless she sees Cage toss a projectile? Why would she roll unless she sees Cage whiff something at mid range? How can f+3 beat a properly spaced d+4 when d+4 has twice the range of f+3? Why would Mileena use iaSBs at mid range when she can just use d+4 to keep Cage at bay? Why would Mileena ever jump on Cage when she beats him in footsies?

Cage Vs Ermac 4/6 - Even though Ermac has a crap time getting Cage off of him, the fact that he is a crazy zoner and has a hitbox that disables Cages forceballs and means that you're gonna have to use the F33 less means that hes already cut down your options. Dont jump, dash block. You can use your meter for Ex nutpunches to get out of his 312 mixups since you wont need it for anything else other than Xray. If you block a push from a little more than max distance you should be able to dash in and get a hit in on block. Use your D4 carefully, its the best way to gain advantage, but you dont want to over use it.

Did you know that you can still set up the forceball trap via 1,3 and then continue pressuring? Did you know that Ermac's 3,1,2 is irrelevant vs Cage because of his small crouching hitbox, so why would you waste meter on EX nutpunches?

Cage Vs Skarlet 4/6 - Her damage is high + she has a reset aswell, that wouldn't be so bad if she couldnt Ex dash between Cages upclose game and punish him with a launcher. But obviously its not a gauranteed thing, so be careful what makes the Skarlet player want to Ex Dash. If they do and overhead slice you can combo punish her, other than that her low slide will always give her space to move. To get near to her you just have to dash block, obviously her dagger nerf will make it easier to get closer but its still a pain.

No.

This is precisely what I mean. Some of you guys do not play the match ups, or perhaps you do, but your competition, at least versus that particular character, is subpar. Then when REO and I say so, you guys call us egotistical American players. Your entire post is nothing but theory, and I think you made REO stopped posting for a while. LOL.