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The New Top Tiers [POST EVO-PATCH]

lionheart21

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
Evil Canadian said:
People downplaying Erron Black like crazy, hes still one of the best characters in the game.

Rating Kollector bottom tier with Kotal? What the fuck? Even at his worst Kollector was still way better off than the actual bad characters(let alone now he can do actual damage, and can get 30+% and a restand into more pressure from max range from stand 44 now).

Whatever happened to Shao Kahn being A tier?(obviously wrong then, the man has no conviction!)
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Now that he's gotten a nerf, I'm actually considering Erron Black
 
lionheart21

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
Evil Canadian said:
He literally said exactly that in his first ever tier list video.

Its why you shouldn't put much stock in his tier lists.
Click to expand...
Ha, seriously? I watched that video and I didn't remember that.

I took him into the lab for a bit to check out his strings and frame data, and just from that, I was able to see that he's really not good.
 
lionheart21

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
Evil Canadian said:
If that's your reasoning keep in mind erron black also got a massive buff with his d3 change and the fact it jails into all his best stuff.

So you can't behind the nerf safety shield.
Click to expand...
I mainly didn't wanna use him mainly because of that whole Scud Shot BS, and there was really nobody using Barking Irons so I couldn't find nearly as much info on that variation.
 
M2Dave

M2Dave

Zoning Master
John_NX said:
Skarlet S tier??
Click to expand...
She may not be S tier, but she is a very strong character in my opinion.

There is a lot to unpack in this tier list, though. I am not sold on Nightwolf being top 3 and Erron Black, Kollector, and Shang Tsung being ranked as low as they are.

sprintz98 said:
He needs to explain this
Click to expand...
He streamed this tier list. You can go to Twitch and listen to the explanations.

Speaking of explanations, I think Sonic Fox's tier lists hold value, but he engages in excessive hyperbole and ostentation instead of communicating why a character is good or bad in a straightforward fashion.
 
LawAbidingCitizen

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
Evil Canadian said:
People downplaying Erron Black like crazy, hes still one of the best characters in the game.

Rating Kollector bottom tier with Kotal? What the fuck? Even at his worst Kollector was still way better off than the actual bad characters(let alone now he can do actual damage, and can get 30+% and a restand into more pressure from max range from stand 44 now).

Whatever happened to Shao Kahn being A tier?(obviously wrong then, the man has no conviction!)
Click to expand...
HiS B tier is mid tier. Meaning all characters are viable just some have better tools to get the job done.
 
LawAbidingCitizen

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
M2Dave said:
She may not be S tier, but she is a very strong character in my opinion.

There is a lot to unpack in this tier list, though. I am not sold on Nightwolf being top 3 and Erron Black, Kollector, and Shang Tsung being ranked as low as they are.



He streamed this tier list. You can go to Twitch and listen to the explanations.

Speaking of explanations, I think Sonic Fox's tier lists hold value, but he engages in excessive hyperbole and ostentation instead of communicating why a character is good or bad in a straightforward fashion.
Click to expand...
Do you have the link?
 
L

lordlosh

Noob
Scorpion, Sub Zero and Cassie so low ? :D Let the rant begin and some people start explaining us, how little SonicFox knows of this game. :D
I kinda agree with most on his tier list.
 
L

lordlosh

Noob
LawAbidingCitizen said:
It looks Like you didn't read my post! Some here who quoted my post said they couldn't punish it, only with D1!

You should not be poking on Liu Kang's 10f gap between F43(10fgap)U3

You should be waiting for Parry, Throw and Amped Fireball. Because all 3 of those are punishable and reactable. If you are focusing on poking you can't punish the rest.
If you are poking its a 25% chance to succeed at punishing Liu Kang but if you are waiting and reacting to those very punishable options its a 75% chance to succeed.

Your problem is that ITS a guess? Well every character has mixups that force guess in many forms: number of hit guess, staggers, 50/50's, Throws, strike/throw guess, tick throws and frame traps.
But your problem shouldn't be guess because you can have a better chance to win by playing the MU correctly. If you are trying to poke instead of wait and bait then I'm sure it feels OP.
If you must punish the F43U3 gap (its out of your favor unless your opponent displays patterns) then by all means use your 7-9f starters instead of poking. That way at least you get a full combo instead of handing him his turn back.

Here is an example of what to do vs LHQ Liu Kang. I have it set to hidden playback so there is no way I can know what LK is gonna do. So proof you can punish him consistently and hard.
Tip: don't punish the gap in F43U3 a lot, just do it seldomly just to scare them and condition them to start using parry/Fireball/Stagger.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1163504254943813632

Frame Data:

F43xxparry is -18 and punishable by almost anything I did it with a 13f mid in video.
F43xxExFireball is -24 very punishable even by Kotals F2.
F4xxThrow is -36 on wiff, same concept as others, wait and you will see the throw. Its very easy to punish just hold down and do either: starter or D2 KB.

@lordlosh

Your welcome
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Did you f**** read my whole post or just choose what sentence to read?
Let me waste my time a bit, so i make video and show you how exactly I cant punish him after amplified fireball, once again because of the blockstun.
Not to mention i whiff first a lot of the time.
He also have other options like D3 and D4 for example.
And NO, F4,3 is not punishable. Is 1000000% safe and you cant punish it.
So let me record you a video, and come explain me how amplified Fireball is punishable.
Here it is:
Sorry for the way its recorded, but i has to do it alone.

https://streamable.com/5ajff

And one more video so all can understand how weak Sub Zero is. His range of D1 and D3 is ridiculous stupid small. And his option sucks so much.
streamable.com

VID_20190820_110314

Watch "VID_20190820_110314" on Streamable.
streamable.com streamable.com
 
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L

lordlosh

Noob
I dont wanna mention it, but didnt i told you that Liu Kang is OP and top of the top. :D
Some of his pick may sound strange, but he explain everything pretty well and why he is putting them there.
 
Braindead

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
FreshFromTheDeli said:
Kabal is the only character who is safe on every string.

Let that sink in.

Jump 2 is amazing. Mixups that are fuzzyable but still scary to deal with it. Massive range with Back 1 combo starter. Full screen punish Fatal Blow.

Only thing he lacks is below average damage. He is the best character that no one plays.

#facts
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Kabal's low dmg argument is very wrong when he has 7 practical KBs and he can easily net 600+ dmg off half of them if he has fatal blow access.

Mistakes are extremely costly against Kabal and I'm not gonna let people get away with saying his damage is a weakness.
 
Hellbringer

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
lordlosh said:
Did you f**** read my whole post or just choose what sentence to read?
Let me waste my time a bit, so i make video and show you how exactly I cant punish him after amplified fireball, once again because of the blockstun.
Not to mention i whiff first a lot of the time.
He also have other options like D3 and D4 for example.
And NO, F4,3 is not punishable. Is 1000000% safe and you cant punish it.
So let me record you a video, and come explain me how amplified Fireball is punishable.
Here it is:
Sorry for the way its recorded, but i has to do it alone.

https://streamable.com/5ajff

And one more video so all can understand how weak Sub Zero is. His range of D1 and D3 is ridiculous stupid small. And his option sucks so much.
streamable.com

VID_20190820_110314

Watch "VID_20190820_110314" on Streamable.
streamable.com streamable.com
Click to expand...
Your too slow dude, need to hit those buttons faster :D
 
Snoop88

Snoop88

Noob
lordlosh said:
Did you f**** read my whole post or just choose what sentence to read?
Let me waste my time a bit, so i make video and show you how exactly I cant punish him after amplified fireball, once again because of the blockstun.
Not to mention i whiff first a lot of the time.
He also have other options like D3 and D4 for example.
And NO, F4,3 is not punishable. Is 1000000% safe and you cant punish it.
So let me record you a video, and come explain me how amplified Fireball is punishable.
Here it is:
Sorry for the way its recorded, but i has to do it alone.

https://streamable.com/5ajff

And one more video so all can understand how weak Sub Zero is. His range of D1 and D3 is ridiculous stupid small. And his option sucks so much.
streamable.com

VID_20190820_110314

Watch "VID_20190820_110314" on Streamable.
streamable.com streamable.com
Click to expand...
You don't need to hold block when 2nd fireball is coming. Block only the first and as soon as the second will miss stand up and 12. It's doable even online.

Maybe even s3 will punish but I am not sure right now and can't check.
 
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L

lordlosh

Noob
Snoop88, you still arew going to whiff 99,99% of the first shot and he will block.
My bad for standing 3, was thinking of standing 4. :D
Hellbringer, be my guess. You are going to whiff most of the time with 1,2. The range is sh..

Even if i do it faster i maybe land some shot offline, but online is different story.
 
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Braindead

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
lordlosh said:
Snoop88, of course i dont need to hold the block, the second fireball its high. And you still arew going to whiff 99,99% of the first shot and he will block.
Standing 3 is 19f, no way you can punish with that one. You can`t punish him even with B1.

Hellbringer, be my guess. You are going to whiff most of the time with 1,2. The range is sh..

Even if i do it faster i maybe land some shot offline, but online is different story.
Click to expand...
S3 is 13f, S4 is 19f.

I could never punish with 12 before the patch, but with thin ice subzero you can just reversal slide after blocking the low fireball and you won't care if LK amplifies it or not.

After the patch you might be able to punish. You're definitely doing it late in the video.
 
L

lordlosh

Noob
1,2 punish is very hard, because you will whiff most of the time. Pretty s**** range.
The easiest way to punish this is with B3,2.
But still you have to catch the perfect moment. If you do it just a bit to early and you are going to eat the high fireball, a bit later and you he will block.
I can do it with B1 as well.
You can do it with 1,2, but only if you are ready to do this, and he have a lot of options.

The time i record it was straight after hard back workout and reaction wasn`t that good.

The main thing is the option he have. And there your reaction will be slower and you will miss the punish or eat something. :D

Braindead, thanks. Tho i play Dead of Winter.
 
Snoop88

Snoop88

Noob
Ok, so 12 is really whiffing a lot. Now I even don't know how I punished with it some online Kangs before. Maybe there is more pushback on low fireballs or f43.

Tried with micro dash there but still whiffing 99% of time.

S3 is punishing but you have to be strict like with B32.
 
L

lordlosh

Noob
The second video i post was not about reaction or anything at all, but to see how bad Sub Zero options are. I mean on paper his D1 is 6f, but the range is so sh*** its whiff 99,99% of the time, and your going to eat it.
The range of his D3 is s*** as well.
Most pro players very barely use 1,2. Most of the time they use B3,2 and B1,4 from range.
Thats why Sub Zero is so bad when he is pressured. And he probably have the worst Getup attacks of all.
His low-profiled issue is a big sh... as well.
Also his throw range s**** as well. That may sound strange, but its sucks.
Will upload video later about that.
Thats why people SonicFox rate him so low.
 
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Noserfatu

Noserfatu

My eyes! The goggles do nothing!
Need to start calling BS on Sonya being top tier. Scar is the only one that had success with her, and that was before patch and it was limited.

Her dmg is all based on b1, which is a high. Ever actually try to use b1 in neutral? It gets poked, every time. No good mids, Only one good KB.

But whenever I play a character with a 9 frame mid, I get poked much less and connect combos much more.
 
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