Strategy The Neutral Game (more discussion needed)

[Amplified$hotz]

I love watching Green Lantern players who have good fundamentals like Kinetic Orochi and DJT

 

[SHAOLIN]

Well then since I see some SF4 talk,I thought I'll take this opportunity to post some of my matches. Two things though: 1. Its in poor quality 2. I suck at the this game

Anyhow I would appreciate if someone could critique and give me pointers on what I should of done or how I can improve.

Post your vids everyone,so we can critique it

 

[Vulcan Hades]

I thought Protagonist wanted this to be more focused on Injustice rather than "general fighting game philosophy". But maybe I'm wrong.

I think it could get confusing for some players if we keep jumping from Injustice or MK9 examples/tips to USF4 or Tekken because it's not exactly the same (at least for footsies) due to character walkspeeds, poke range, dash distance and system mechanics. But I guess the concept of neutral game and controlling space applies to pretty much all fighting games.

Well then since I see some SF4 talk,I thought I'll take this opportunity to post some of my matches. Two things though: 1. Its in poor quality 2. I suck at the this game

Anyhow I would appreciate if someone could critique and give me pointers on what I should of done or how I can improve.

There are other threads for this and forums dedicated to SF. This thread isn't for match critiques, at least I think it would make more sense to only post examples of neutral game/footsies from high level players so that more players can learn from it. See the bad thing about match critiques is that only you will care about the tips people give you. That's why it should be general tips and examples that everyone can relate to and that can help as much people as possible. Not character specific + matchup specific + player specific critiques.

I suggest you watch some of the tutorials that have already been posted in other threads. e.g. Soup's thread. A lot of great info is already on those videos you just need to press play and listen for more than 5 minutes lol.

 

[SHAOLIN]

If Protagonist wanted this thread to be more focused on Injustice he would of probably put it in the Injustice forums not the Fighting Philosophy forums.

There are other threads for this and forums dedicated to SF. This thread isn't for match critiques, at least I think it would make more sense to only post examples of neutral game/footsies from high level players so that more players can learn from it. See the bad thing about match critiques is that only you will care about the tips people give you. That's why it should be general tips and examples that everyone can relate to and that can help as much people as possible. Not character specific + matchup specific + player specific stuff.

I suggest you watch some of the tutorials that have already been posted in other threads. e.g. Soup's thread. A lot of great info is already on those videos you just need to press play and listen for more than 5 minutes lol.

You're right only I would care about the tips people give me since I ask for them. Also since this thread was just created recently I thought it would of being a great idea to gets some tips and advice (Like everyone else that's being asking) from some pro player who are familiar with this game, but I guess it wasn't.....

 

[Axel_Redd]

why do they call it trip guarding if ur punishing them when they land...ur not exactly the one that would need to be guarding in that situation o.o

 

[Sajam]

why do they call it trip guarding if ur punishing them when they land...ur not exactly the one that would need to be guarding in that situation o.o

Because you are tripping them before they can guard

 

[Qwark28]

Joker's b+1.

I love you.

 

[Error404]

One thing that isn't stressed enough here is BE PATIENT . The more patient you are the more likely it is for your opponent to make a mistake in the neutural game.

 

[Rip Torn]

why do they call it trip guarding if ur punishing them when they land...ur not exactly the one that would need to be guarding in that situation o.o

The term Trip Guard actually applies to the jumping player. If you can block on the first landing frame, trip guard is possible. It comes from Street Fighter where sweeps (trips) were a common way to punish bad jump ins. Injustice only has trip guard on empty jumps. If you whiff an air normal though, you can't trip guard.

 

[TheGabStandard]

One thing that isn't stressed enough here is BE PATIENT . The more patient you are the more likely it is for your opponent to make a mistake in the neutural game.

Wholly agree with this and is probably the thing I need to work on the most in my game. I sometimes can get too impatient and just dash in/do a reckless move which then leads to a loss.

 

[fr stack]

This is the Number One thing I need to work on as a player. For the last month or so I've been trying to find different setup's, higher damaging combo's, gimmicks etc.
But last night after I played a set with Xenomorph and after that set I realized what I need to work on the most. Which is my neutral game. I was getting whiffed punished so much for just throwing out s3 or Hook Charge. I was just throwing these moves out thinking that I'm within the right range. Also working on my patience and not getting "worked up" when in the heat of the moment. I jump or dash in way too much when I get frustrated, pressured or I just don't know what to do. Characters like Zatanna, Ares or Frost are so foreign to me that I just do shit without any real strategy. But if I play an Aquaman, Batman, Superman or MMH. I generally know what to do in those mu's. Working on my footsie game and patience would help me out in those particular mu's that I just have no clue on what to do. As well as helping me level up overall.

Great thread!

SPEAK DA TRUFF

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Last thing. If you guys don't mind, can you post the character and their representative with the best neutral?
Like
Nightwing-
Gl-
Just so visual learners like me know who to watch.

 

[Protagonist_1]

Playing footsies with joker. What sucks is that he is usually the one trying to get in. Its tough against aquaman in neutral

(Any joker players feel free to correct me or add to this)

I don't know as much about joker, but what I do know it that his best asset is his corner game. If I ever planned on using the character (just tossing some ideas here haha), I would want to have a neutral game good enough to push my opponent into the corner. To do this, your would need to get the opponent to respect your space (by whiff punishing, punishing dash ins, and anti-airing consistently). Once they respect your space, you can start to push them into the corner.

How to do this is entirely match-up specific. His d3 has really good reach (I've tried practicing whiff punishing with Cyborg, it's a really good tool in the neutral game). Acid blossom I believe is plus on block so it could be a nice way to maintain space (perhaps buffer his d1 into acid blossom to catch dash ins...but be careful because I think it has a gap). In addition, I noticed jokers anti-air involves a crowbar. Weapons in injustice do not a hurtbox, so this means when the crowbar comes in contract with a limb of a character (especially in a jump in attack) it should win most of the time (weapons have priority over normals and limbs unless the normal has a highly active hitbox - ex Green Laterns b1). His jump in attack also involves a crowbar as well (forgot which one, I assume j3?) which makes it pretty good as well.

Another tip is it's a lot easier to react to a jump in and anti-air if you stay just outside your opponents jump range as well. Jump arcs are also character specific as well and jump attack ranges, so I would practice anti-airing against jump-ins I struggle against.

As for his trait, I heard it's terrible so I can't comment on that lol. Although since it increases his walkspeed with each "ha" I guess you can say his trait allows him to have a better neutral game compared to most of the cast if used right.

Most of this is personal preference. Every player has a unique neutral game, so you'll have to find what works for your and your character's strengths.

 

[Protagonist_1]

The second part of that is what I've resigned to doing, I just throw out d1's at dash distance if they're catching me with dashes. I've basically given up on trying to react to them in 90% of cases. Even in some cases where they're going for something relatively slow(like if Batgirl dashes up and goes for the 50/50) and I'm literally sitting there waiting for it I can't seem to interrupt.

It really sucked with Ares who has a pretty long recovery on his d1 and was relatively unsafe on whiff, but with other characters I'm doing alright by just sticking out normals. I'm just somewhat baffled by people who just matter factly state that you should be reacting to dashes, because I can't even do it in practice mode.

I see there you are coming from. Punishing dah ins is generally matchup specific, so some characters can, while others can't. You generally have to make a read (by throwing out normals that have good start up and recovery and buffering them) to make them respect your space in the cases they can't.

 

[Protagonist_1]

Well then since I see some SF4 talk,I thought I'll take this opportunity to post some of my matches. Two things though: 1. Its in poor quality 2. I suck at the this game

Anyhow I would appreciate if someone could critique and give me pointers on what I should of done or how I can improve.

Post your vids everyone,so we can critique it

Sup Shaolin, I originally made the post to just encourage more talk on the neutral game mainly pertaining to injustice and mk9. However, when I get the chance I will try to look at your matches (I have limited knowledge on SF4, but I'll try haha). Though some things to look out for when watching game footage especially in SF4 is how many times you are getting knocked down. The more you are knocked down in SF4, the higher chances you have of losing. Always try your best to stay on your feet, and get your opponent on their behind.

In addition, if your playing SF4, this vid is a must watch in my opinion by Juicebox (he has good knowledge about footsies):

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

With all this discussion about the neutral game, we need to talk about how injustice differs from other fighting games.

Interactables completely change the traditional spacing/footsie game for a few main reasons.

1) unblockable
2) huge damage
3) huge hit box
4) tracking

It's a calculation of risk/reward. But interactables make it very high risk for some (NW) and high reward for others (batgirl).

The hard adaptation is around an ever changing footsie meta. The video @Syknis posted is a great example because when the roomba rolled up the footsie game was different and then went back to normal.

For me this was a huge learning curve as all my characters got bopped by interactables.

When the way you have to play footsies constantly changes, the constant awareness of multiple factors, movement has to be deliberate and tight cause there is little room for error

 

[Vulcan Hades]

One thing that isn't stressed enough here is BE PATIENT . The more patient you are the more likely it is for your opponent to make a mistake in the neutural game.

Especially when you have the life lead. You don't have to do anything if you have more life. They have to comeback. I know a lot of people hate winning by time out and think it's boring but it's the smart thing to do sometimes.

The more you are patient and do loads of nothing the more impatient your opponent will get and will feel the need to try something risky to make you lose the lead.

But of course it's equally important to be patient even when you are losing. Even if you're the one who needs to do something, you have to pick the right moments. You have to be able to detect some things like for example:

-When your opponent is obviously buffering and waiting for you to throw a projectile or jump. Don't zone/jump unless you want to test their reactions.

-When they are whiffing a lot of normals it could mean they are expecting you to run into their option-select, so don't dash in and don't use travelling specials.

-If they are zoning you out, walk and block/neutral jump/MBDC or FADC, but be aware they are also trying to condition you. So once you're getting too close for a zoner's comfort (around jump distance or closer) they might either reposition, go into "anti-air mode" or mix it up and for example might decide to dash in or jump in on you before you get the chance to start your pressure.

REO is extremely good at this sort of zoning/conditioning and managing his spacing/positioning. And Tyrant is very good at detecting your intentions and taking preemptive measures to counter them. Like in some of those GIFs in OP, Tyrant is obviously trying to get in, but he knows people hate it when Grundy gets too close to them, so he's also aware that people will likely take measures to push Grundy back when they feel he is at an uncomfortable distance. So when Tyrant gets closer he is willing to walk back, jump back or backdash even though it is counter productive to his main goal of getting in. Being willing to sacrifice some ground like this is very hard especially when you really need to get in on a heavy zoning character and make something happen. But patience is key to opening up people.

And of course you can't talk about patience without mentioning the epic DJT vs REO (EVO 2013) or MIT vs Theo at EVO 2014. Theo is known as a "lame" player playing a defensive and footsie based Aquaman. But MIT was able to be equally or more patient and managed to gain life lead with nothing but chip damage from Deathstroke's guns and a couple of blocked strings. While never or rarely allowing Theo to get his chip damage from Trident Rush. That annoyed Theo to the point where he realized he wouldn't be able to win this match by staying away or only playing at midrange, so he was forced to take more risks than usual and be more proactive than reactive. All because of a few pixels of chip.

 

[Axel_Redd]

The term Trip Guard actually applies to the jumping player. If you can block on the first landing frame, trip guard is possible. It comes from Street Fighter where sweeps (trips) were a common way to punish bad jump ins. Injustice only has trip guard on empty jumps. If you whiff an air normal though, you can't trip guard.

so if they whiff an air normal then they can be punished?

 

[Rip Torn]

so if they whiff an air normal then they can be punished?

Yes. They lose the ability to trip guard and can be hit upon landing. I don't know the exact data, but there are landing frames where they can't block.

 

[Protagonist_1]

so if they whiff an air normal then they can be punished?

Yep. Everytime a character goes for a jump attack and lands, there's a few frames of recovery were they cannot block. You can actually test it out in practice mode as well to see it first hand. First do a neutral jump, and hold down; your character should be able to duck immediately. Now do a jump attack and hold duck immediately afterward; you'll notice your character briefly stands for a brief moment before ducking.

If you want to see punished jump ins action, I would suggest watching 16 bit's matches (he's a master at it). Most recent match I can recall of this was Saltface vs. Perfect Legend at top 8 (Summer Jam). He punished a lot of doomsday's jump in attacks during this match as well.

(Edit: misused the term trip guard there lol)

 

[16 Bit]

Yeah, Trip Guard is an often misused term. Rip Torn is right. What we call "trip guarding"(punishing a whiffed jump in) is the incorrect usage but it's super common. I use it knowing it's wrong just because it's been popularized.

 

[Rip Torn]

Yeah, Trip Guard is an often misused term. Rip Torn is right. What we call "trip guarding"(punishing a whiffed jump in) is the incorrect usage but it's super common. I use it knowing it's wrong just because it's been popularized.

Yeah, I think it's fine to use the term like that. It names the system mechanic that's in play. There's no real graceful way to say it other than "trip gaurding" to be honest.

 

[ChatterBox]

Yeah, I think it's fine to use the term like that. It names the system mechanic that's in play. There's no real graceful way to say it other than "trip gaurding" to be honest.

Shouldn't we then just call it a "trip" or "tripping?"

 

[KIllaByte]

Not really sure how Down 1 can be the go to movement punisher, when down 1 is usually the lowest range move our characters have. We can be hit from outside of our down 1s range, while the opponent's character does a longer range move. Then again, down 1s are too fast to punish on reaction.. There's no truly
As a Shazam player, Down + 2 and back + 2 for life, though. Playing a character that is 50% unblockable is wonderful, and Back + 2 into safe torpedo brings us very close to D2 tick throw range. Shazam is footsies into momentum and setups, for me anyway. (everyone's a little bit of footsies, everyone in the game can move around, so, they're almost halfway there, without realizing it)

I know it's been said, but, this thread rocks.

 

[Rip Torn]

Shouldn't we then just call it a "trip" or "tripping?"

That would probably just make it more confusing.