Strategy The Neutral Game (more discussion needed)

[16 Bit]

I love this thread, and I agree totally on its purpose. How do I improve my neutral game though? The only suggestion I’ve seen is from @Shaolin 19 and I'm gonna try that soon. Any tips/ticks/training from anyone else? I just went 0-2 at my first big tournament and would like that to change for next time.

Can you explain some of your problems? I know it can be hard to put into words but try to be specific.


For me when I fight a new player in tournament I look at it this way....Catwoman has like 5 major options in the neutral. Walk, dash, jump, f+1, low whip, b+3. First I have to feel them out. Either I'll chill at her f+1 range and kind of walk in and out or dash outside the range they can punish then jump back. Maybe they'll whiff something or show their hand on what moves they like to use in footsies. Or they are doing the same thing, not committing to anything, and just walking back. That sucks because all her main footsies tools are either unsafe or ineffective against someone walking back. If that's the case the difficult guessing game begins but I always have the mindset that no one, even top players, can deal with all those options at once. I will test them on these options. Some people are good at punishing dash ins but suck at anti-air or maybe they're weak in the CW matchup and don't know to punish low whip or it's a matchup where they can't punish it hard. Even if they're super top and they're good at all this they can't do it all at once. Even the best have to be ready, sitting there looking to punish dash ins while also being ready to anti-air and that probably means they're not looking for a low whip. No one can be ready to deal with all 5 at once, so it's a matter of predicting the right one and not getting emo if I'm wrong. This all mixed in with you doing the same for their options. To me when I hear people complain about Injustice footsies it's often that they don't have this mindset. They either can't handle an aspect(those that think "there's no AA and you can jump for free") or those that have one of the options punished and then give up on using it("they punished my dash in...I can't do anything. I should never dash in again".

 

[Vulcan Hades]

I love this thread, and I agree totally on its purpose. How do I improve my neutral game though? The only suggestion I’ve seen is from @Shaolin 19 and I'm gonna try that soon. Any tips/ticks/training from anyone else? I just went 0-2 at my first big tournament and would like that to change for next time.

Your neutral game should differ from matchup to matchup. The most basic way I could put it is: You need to constantly visualize all the ranges, attack angles and the space that is currently being occupied or can be occupied by both players. So in other words you can't have a solid neutral game without an understanding of each character's main go to options.

Once you understand what characters can do and what they're trying to do at what ranges, then it becomes about trying to limit or bait/counter those various options by controlling/occupying that space + trying to stay at your optimal spacing, where your character shines.

All characters should be viewed as zoners because everyone of them are trying to control specific parts on the screen either with projectiles, normals, strings, specials, jump arcs or trait. Some want to keep you away, some want to lock you down in the corner, some want to oppress you with frametraps and mixups but it's always about controlling, occupying, limiting space, representing threats/options and mixing it up.

Now the part that can't be taught is the yomi that goes on in each players head. It's the hardest part because it sometimes involves being willing to go against all logic/science and make the most unsafe decisions/reads. You kinda have to develop that yourself with matchup and player experience.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Now the part that can't be taught is the yomi that goes on in each players head. It's the hardest part because it being willing to go against all logic/science and make the most unsafe decisions/reads. You kinda have to develop that yourself with matchup and player experience.

Now the part that can't be taught is the yomi that goes on in each players head. It's the hardest part because it sometimes involves being willing to go against all logic/science and make the most unsafe decisions/reads. You kinda have to develop that yourself with matchup and player experience.

Haha yeah that's definitely the hardest part, especially in a bad mu. Hell I literally hit reo with 4 shadow kicks in a row once against his kabal lol. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do.

Edit: ugh @Vulcan Hades ignore that mess lol, on my phone.

 

[ChatterBox]

Can you explain some of your problems? I know it can be hard to put into words but try to be specific.

For me when I fight a new player in tournament I look at it this way....Catwoman has like 5 major options in the neutral. Walk, dash, jump, f+1, low whip, b+3. First I have to feel them out. Either I'll chill at her f+1 range and kind of walk in and out or dash outside the range they can punish then jump back. Maybe they'll whiff something or show their hand on what moves they like to use in footsies. Or they are doing the same thing, not committing to anything, and just walking back. That sucks because all her main footsies tools are either unsafe or ineffective against someone walking back. If that's the case the difficult guessing game begins but I always have the mindset that no one, even top players, can deal with all those options at once. I will test them on these options. Some people are good at punishing dash ins but suck at anti-air or maybe they're weak in the CW matchup and don't know to punish low whip or it's a matchup where they can't punish it hard. Even if they're super top and they're good at all this they can't do it all at once. Even the best have to be ready, sitting there looking to punish dash ins while also being ready to anti-air and that probably means they're not looking for a low whip. No one can be ready to deal with all 5 at once, so it's a matter of predicting the right one and not getting emo if I'm wrong. This all mixed in with you doing the same for their options.

I usually get flustered or realize I should be attacking and then get punished for trying. I think your description of what you do is really helpful for me realizing what I'm doing wrong most of the time, losing my patience. Now that I'm thinking about it I get whiff punished a lot for missing attacks, not really playing footsies just fishing for a hit. So I guess another question of mine is what do people do to stay comfortable in the moment in tournament?

Your neutral game should differ from matchup to matchup. The most basic way I could put it is: You need to constantly visualize all the ranges, attack angles and the space that is currently being occupied or can be occupied by both players. So in other words you can't have a solid neutral game without an understanding of each character's main go to options.

Once you understand what characters can do and what they're trying to do at what ranges, then it becomes about trying to limit or bait/counter those various options by occupying that space + trying to stay at your optimal spacing, where your character shines.

All characters should be viewed as zoners because everyone of them are trying to control specific parts on the screen either with projectiles, normals, strings, specials, jump arcs or trait. Some want to keep you away, some want to lock you down in the corner, some want to oppress you with frametraps and mixups but it's always about controlling, occupying, limiting and representing space.

Now the part that can't be taught is the yomi that goes on in each players head. It's the hardest part because it sometimes involves being willing to go against all logic/science and make the most unsafe decisions/reads. You kinda have to develop that yourself with matchup and player experience.

That is some really helpful information there. The thing I'm realizing fom both of you is that I don't spend enough time during the match thinking, its all adrenaline and pushing buttons. Even if they're block.

 

[AK Stormthegates]

I always get nailed for dashing too much and its been a horrible habit since release. Somehow get by though. =P

I tend to think I have decent fundamentals but I always zone out when I start getting momentum and lose my lead alot. Honestly the biggest reason why I lose so much now =(.

I think alot of the people that I play could probably help me out other than saying "Do things that Jupiter does" which I heard a million times already.

 

[16 Bit]

So I guess another question of mine is what do people do to stay comfortable in the moment in tournament?

1. If you're feeling overwhelmed try to slow down the pace. Back off and chill. Keep in mind when you're at your preferred range they're probably not at theirs. If you can limit their options you have less to worry about, maybe nothing at all or only 1 or 2 things, and you can afford to stop and think about what's going on.

2. If you guess wrong and get bodied you can't get emo. This is a momentum game and there's going to be situations where you are wrong, everything goes to hell and you lose an entire bar. It happens. You cannot allow this to cloud your judgment on future reads or get desperate and start playing poorly. If you ran into something and got bodied try to think...did they get lucky and throw something out and you got caught or did they make a calculated read? Then go from there. Realize you are capable of building the same momentum as long as you keep playing your game.

Both work together. For example, I might make a bad read at the beginning of a game against Flash and lose 75% of my life. Sucks but I can come back. If I was in that situation I'd back off and make sure I stayed outside his b+2 range. From there he really can't do much to me so I have time to access the situation and plan how I want to go in.

 

[The PantyChrist]

So much yes. This a thread I think tym needs

 

[xenogorgeous]

this is a great thread indeed .... neutral game is such a major matter of importance in those fg at competitive level, that deserves a huge analysis and discussion about, no doubt !

 

[Sajam]

When I describe how to play this game to people, the most important advice I can give in neutral is to punish movement. You think people would realize in a game where movement is so slow that being able to shut it down is super useful. Understanding how to safely move in and out in this game, as well as prevent your opponent from doing the same is a huge deal.

Also, if I was going to add something from my own play to this post I would offer two anti airs with NW against Green Arrow that I did to Chris G. NW is known to have bad anti airs, but I think his AA options are more situational and really good if you have the ground game to make it work.

First the anti air here at 8min 46s shows off how good his far ranged AA options are in staff. Even against a character like GA, putting yourself in that perfect space where he has to deal with my stand 1, but also can't jump in because of b1 is super important. Even more important is that at that range NW jump 1 can start up my offense or jump b1 can reset the situation.

The next thing in that video starts at 9m, 36seconds at the start of the next match. I was using wing dings to anti air Chris' approach like at 9minutes and 43 seconds, and then when he tries to empty jump to avoid eating the projectile a few seconds later I use b2 to anti air him. Even though traditionally b2 is not a button NW players use to anti air, you can put yourself in a space where it will work if you opponent empty jumps.

Little things like this are what separates the people who play Injustice from the people who know how to play Injustice.

Also, I'll tag some NW players since this is useful info for them.

@FOREVER EL1TE @AK L0rdoftheFLY @HeroesNZ @AssassiN @TakeAChance

 

[Yoaks]

I needed this thread.

 

[IMakeItL00kC00L]

I needed this thread.

There are a lot of people that probably need this thread (myself included)

 

[Billy Dha Kid]

Imagine if Tyrant would main a good character

 

[Syknis]

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

This is why I always thought NW wasn't so bad. It is because he has a strong neutral game.

There is two parts here. The neutral game of your character and the neutral game of the player.

Tyrant is a master of his neutral game but his character has a weak neutral game. Superman has a strong neutral game and so does KDZ. That equals greatness.

I did one thing better than him and forever king at FR. I beat them by punishing their movement. And only that. And they moved too much so I was able to take advantage or that.

 

[Sajam]

Also something that @Filipino Man brings up all the time:

Characters don't have footsies, players do. Also keep in mind that normals aren't the only thing you can play footsies/neutral with. Your projectiles/specials are another tool for you to control neutral with as well.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Also something that @Filipino Man brings up all the time:

Characters don't have footsies, players do. Also keep in mind that normals aren't the only thing you can play footsies/neutral with. Your projectiles/specials are another tool for you to control neutral with as well.

It's both.

 

[Filipino Man]

It's both.

It's not. Footsies by definition is the decision making of a player.

Having good normals =/= good footsies.

Having good normals HELPS a player play footsies, limiting the reads they essentially have to make because the normal covers a lot of options.

Characters are just an in game avatar and their attacks are just a bunch of boxes. They don't have a mind of their own, therefore they do not play the game by themselves

 

[SonicFox5000]

Spacing and dash punishing is the way to go. If you look at my summer jam top 8, I barely let Reo or KDZ dash in on me for free. I only got caught off guard a couple of times, but every time they did they were d1 combo punished.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Having good normals HELPS a player play footsies, limiting the reads they essentially have to make because the normal covers a lot of options.

Exactly. I feel like we are saying the same thing. I am just assuming you know that I realize this. Both the characters tools and the player have an impact on the footsies effectiveness hence why I said both.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Worth noting that doing absolutely nothing at all can also control space and limit options (by not giving them anything to whiff punish, counter hit or anti-air) and apply incredible pressure especially when the opponent is cornered. Snake Eyez is extremely good at this.

Walking forward represents the threat of a dash, throw or poke. Standing/crouching there represents the threat of anti-air or reaction super. Whiffing normals represents the threat of counter hit/OS buffer. And walking backwards represents the threat of baiting, whiff punish and trip guard.

So even if you aren't pressing any attack button or doing any special move, just by standing there, walking forward and back you can condition someone and either discourage some of their best options or encourage risky options.

 

[4x4lo8o]

Is punishing dashes something you're supposed to be able to do on reaction? If not is there a good way to make that read?

I hear people talking about it all the time, but I can't do it. It feels impossible, even if I'm specifically waiting for the dash I can't see it in time

 

[Filipino Man]

Exactly. I feel like we are saying the same thing. I am just assuming you know that I realize this. Both the characters tools and the player have an impact on the footsies effectiveness hence why I said both.

No, I realize that you don't understand because you keep saying that characters have good footsies and good ground games.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Is punishing dashes something you're supposed to be able to do on reaction? If not is there a good way to make that read?

I hear people talking about it all the time, but I can't do it. It feels impossible, even if I'm specifically waiting for the dash I can't see it in time

if someone dashes in they will likely jump or d1 or do something. If you see the dash your d1 will more than likely hit first. its a great option. You don't have to go for the full combo every time but just practice throwing out the d1. If it hits you can at least gain frame advantage but if your NW in staff I get a d1 ground pound which even on block is +9.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

No, I realize that you don't understand because you keep saying that characters have good footsies and good ground games.

You just said that a characters normals can help in the footsie game. That is exactly what I am saying. Why must you instigate?

 

[Filipino Man]

You just said that a characters normals can help in the footsie game. That is exactly what I am saying. Why must you instigate?

I'm not instigating anything. I'm simply informing you the correct context in which "footsies" should be used. Characters don't have good footsie games, because footsies is STRICTLY the player. Characters have a kit that can HELP a player have to limit to the extent in which they guess (which is footsies, it's a guessing game at neutral). Characters don't guess, players do.

That's all.