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Strategy The Neutral Game (more discussion needed)

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
I'm not instigating anything. I'm simply informing you the correct context in which "footsies" should be used. Characters don't have good footsie games, because footsies is STRICTLY the player. Characters have a kit that can HELP a player have to limit to the extent in which they guess (which is footsies, it's a guessing game at neutral). Characters don't guess, players do.

That's all.
Oh my god dude. By me saying that a character has good footsies I'm literally leaving out one word that would make all the difference for the simple fact that I am lazy. A character can have good footsie tools. There! Happy? Your condescending posts are annoying as fuck. Don't assume everyone is a dumb ass and that you have to correct everything. We are saying the same fucking thing!
 

Filipino Man

Retirement my ass
Oh my god dude. By me saying that a character has good footsies I'm literally leaving out one word that would make all the difference for the simple fact that I am lazy. A character can have good footsie tools. There! Happy? Your condescending posts are annoying as fuck. Don't assume everyone is a dumb ass and that you have to correct everything. We are saying the same fucking thing!
Excuse me? I'm not coming at you at all, and if you think I am, you clearly don't know me well enough because I'm direct. I want the community to advance and I'd rather they have a firm grasp of fundamentals, homie. I've explained this to other people and their understanding had increased (I'm sure many others in this thread will appreciate my explanation) and they agreed just fine and you just went off and flamed me. I didn't think I'd offend you with a clarification.

KK.
 

Protagonist_1

Champion
Is punishing dashes something you're supposed to be able to do on reaction? If not is there a good way to make that read?

I hear people talking about it all the time, but I can't do it. It feels impossible, even if I'm specifically waiting for the dash I can't see it in time
(Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, or wants to add to this). It's character specific, so it comes with match-up knowledge on knowing whether your character can punish a dash in on reaction, or whether a character can dash in safely. For example, I remember in the batman mirror if batman dashes in he can punish with his 6 frame standing jab (although I haven't used batman in ages so I have no idea if this is still the case).

However, let's say you are dealing with a character with a safe dash in (flash/superman). If you read the flash player is going to dash in, you would need to punish preemptively. This means throwing out a normal in anticipation of a dash to punish. You can even option select the normal into a safe special, so just in case they block, you are still pressing the advantage. It may seem crazy because you are briefly leaving yourself open but it's commonly done in SF4. (although normals have faster recovery so it's less risky)

For example, I was facing a flash player online that was dash happy. I quickly noticed this and threw out preemptive d1's and buffered in Sonic Disruptor (cyborg). On hit, I would get d1 to SD. If it whiffed, I whiff a d1 (so even if he jumps I would still have enough time to recover and block the jump in). If he dashes in and blocks in time, d1*SD although it has a gap, gives me plus frames.

Most characters have option selects in the neutral better in the one's mentioned above (ex. Aquaman d1 buffer into trident rush/Doomsday d1 buffer into ex shoulder charge/ Superman d1 buffer into breath/ MMH d1 buffer into force push), and some don't. If you have two bars of meter, you can also buffer pokes into a bounce cancel if you feel sure enough.

It's entirely match-up specific, and takes risk at times, but playing footsies is risky in itself. It's important you make your opponent respect your space.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
No, I realize that you don't understand because you keep saying that characters have good footsies and good ground games.
This was the post that set me off. I apologize if you didn't mean it that way but you obviously didn't understand what I was saying even after I told you we were saying the same thing and clarified my post. That to me was pushing something that was an unneeded correcting.

Flaming? naaaa

Cursing? yup!
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
Is punishing dashes something you're supposed to be able to do on reaction? If not is there a good way to make that read?

I hear people talking about it all the time, but I can't do it. It feels impossible, even if I'm specifically waiting for the dash I can't see it in time

You can. Just gotta practice I guess. Thing is, you gotta be sitting there looking for it. That opens up other avenues of getting in. Plus sometimes you're not truly punishing a dash but you're interrupting the move they were trying after. You absolutely can punish a dash on reaction though. It's VERY hard against characters like Flash and Superman however.

Another thing to do if you suspect a dash but don't want to just sit there is stick out a poke and see what happens. I do this a lot with Catwoman's f+1. I do f+1 by itself and if they dash in it catches them if not I'm pretty safe from whiff punish. You can also just stick out a d+1~special and the special won't come out on whiff.
 

Protagonist_1

Champion
How do you do this with joker?
Do you mean play footsies with Joker or punish dash ins? I can't tell you directly because I'm not a joker player haha, however it's really up to the player to find out which normals work best for you in the neutral game. Still I can attempt the best I can to explain, and others in the joker community can give their own input.
 

Jeremy KO

*insert kotal kahn gibberish here*
This is why I always thought NW wasn't so bad. It is because he has a strong neutral game.

There is two parts here. The neutral game of your character and the neutral game of the player.

Tyrant is a master of his neutral game but his character has a weak neutral game. Superman has a strong neutral game and so does KDZ. That equals greatness.

I did one thing better than him and forever king at FR. I beat them by punishing their movement. And only that. And they moved too much so I was able to take advantage or that.
You know what? You're right! You've inspired me.

*uninstalls dota 2 and puts injustice into dusty xbox*
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
How do you do this with joker?

If I played Joker I'd use gun to keep them from jumping back and get them playing footsies. Then I'd use sweep and crowbar to play from jump range and when they're invested in that I'd start the jump shenanigans.
 

4x4lo8o

Warrior
You can. Just gotta practice I guess. Thing is, you gotta be sitting there looking for it. That opens up other avenues of getting in. Plus sometimes you're not punishing a dash but you're interrupting the move they were trying after. You absolutely can punish a dash on reaction though. It's VERY hard against characters like Flash and Superman however.

Another thing to do if you suspect a dash but don't want to just sit there is stick out a poke and see what happens. I do this a lot with Catwoman's f+1. I do f+1 by itself and if they dash in it catches them if not I'm pretty safe from whiff punish. You can also just stick out a d+1~special and the special won't come out on whiff.
The second part of that is what I've resigned to doing, I just throw out d1's at dash distance if they're catching me with dashes. I've basically given up on trying to react to them in 90% of cases. Even in some cases where they're going for something relatively slow(like if Batgirl dashes up and goes for the 50/50) and I'm literally sitting there waiting for it I can't seem to interrupt.

It really sucked with Ares who has a pretty long recovery on his d1 and was relatively unsafe on whiff, but with other characters I'm doing alright by just sticking out normals. I'm just somewhat baffled by people who just matter factly state that you should be reacting to dashes, because I can't even do it in practice mode.
 

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
Do you mean play footsies with Joker or punish dash ins? I can't tell you directly because I'm not a joker player haha, however it's really up to the player to find out which normals work best for you in the neutral game. Still I can attempt the best I can to explain, and others in the joker community can give their own input.
Playing footsies with joker. What sucks is that he is usually the one trying to get in. Its tough against aquaman in neutral
 

Vulcan Hades

Champion
No, I realize that you don't understand because you keep saying that characters have good footsies and good ground games.
Ok but LBSH Bison and Rose have a much better mid-range game than Makoto. Of course it doesn't mean a Makoto player can't play footsies but it does mean she won't be able to control that mid-range space as well due to her poor walkspeed which prevents her from whiff punishing as well as Dudley for example. So it's not entirely wrong to say some characters have weaker "ground games" than others. Same way people say Aquaman has great footsies and Green Arrow doesn't. It's just how people talk it doesn't mean we don't know what footsies are lol.


Characters don't have good footsie games, because footsies is STRICTLY the player.
We can see you have a great teacher at WNF. As Alex Valle puts it: Footsies means having courage. :)
 
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AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Ok but LBSH Bison and Rose have a much better mid-range game than Makoto. Of course it doesn't mean a Makoto player can't play footsies but it does mean she won't be able to control that mid-range space as well due to her poor walkspeed which prevents her from whiff punishing at well as Dudley for example. So it's not entirely wrong to say some characters have weaker "ground games" than others. Same way people say Aquaman has great footsies and Green Arrow doesn't. It's just how people talk it doesn't mean we don't know what footsies are lol.



We can see you have a great teacher at WNF. As Alex Valle puts it: Footsies means having courage. :)
well put
 

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
If I played Joker I'd use gun to keep them from jumping back and get them playing footsies. Then I'd use sweep and crowbar to play from jump range and when they're invested in that I'd start the jump shenanigans.
Two more questions is what slips does with low guns up close considered footsies and what would you do with teeth as Joker. I have been thinking about using them the same way tom Brady used ice clone, but i don't know if that's a good idea.
 

Filipino Man

Retirement my ass
Ok but LBSH Bison and Rose have a much better mid-range game than Makoto. Of course it doesn't mean a Makoto player can't play footsies but it does mean she won't be able to control that mid-range space as well due to her poor walkspeed which prevents her from whiff punishing at well as Dudley for example. So it's not entirely wrong to say some characters have weaker "ground games" than others. Same way people say Aquaman has great footsies and Green Arrow doesn't. It's just how people talk it doesn't mean we don't know what footsies are lol.



We can see you have a great teacher at WNF. As Alex Valle puts it: Footsies means having courage. :)
See, that's where you're wrong. Makoto's mid ranged game is TERRIFYING. Just because her normals aren't as good as Bison or Rose, doesn't mean her mid ranged game isn't terrifying. Jumping is a part of the mind game and having that damage is part of that mind game. It just depends on how the player plays it, which is footsies. Rose and Bison have better normals, and I see people saying that's why they have good footsies, which is WRONG lol. Footsies, and I hate the word, requires "yomi", whether you're aware you're using it or not.

It's all mind games, nothing to do with cahracter's normals. If characters don't have a kit at all, then they're bad characters and you should not be playing them.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
See, that's where you're wrong. Makoto's mid ranged game is TERRIFYING. Just because her normals aren't as good as Bison or Rose, doesn't mean her mid ranged game isn't terrifying. Jumping is a part of the mind game and having that damage is part of that mind game. It just depends on how the player plays it, which is footsies. Rose and Bison have better normals, and I see people saying that's why they have good footsies, which is WRONG lol. Footsies, and I hate the word, requires "yomi", whether you're aware you're using it or not.

It's all mind games, nothing to do with cahracter's normals. If characters don't have a kit at all, then they're bad characters and you should not be playing them.
Lol