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The most recent REO podcast episode is huge, and we should talk about it

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I wonder what other games the people saying MK11 is too dirty/unfair are playing. It’s literally one of the more honest fighting games on the market right now.

That doesn’t mean you have to like the game, but I wonder how these people would play games with actual ambiguous mixups, glitches far worse than fireballs whiffing, vortexes, real dirt and tricky
resets for entire lifebars, etc.

@haketh hit the nail on the head imo. I’m not sure where this warped view of ‘fairness’ is coming from in relation to other games. Every fighting game has its dirt, and most of it is far more frustrating than guessing wrong on a throw to lose 14%.
Why are you surprised? It's the MK community, it's never going to change. This is the same community that had 1 cyrax at the end of MK9, 1 mileena in MKX, 1 cetrion/cassie etc.

A franchise based on attracting casuals. 8 years later, MK is the only fighting game 90% of them play, even pros. And what are those fighting games? MKX with the run in 50-50s, MK9 with its brokenness. Most of them after from MKX. And now they're playing a game where not every r3tard can run in and steal games.

This is why pros leaving around 2015 brought the site to its knees and the community scattered.

Look at this thread, people are calling them negative nancies when the things they say are factually true ( except paul b, that dude is a whiny dickbag and a half ). They're tearing into a podcast for points that REO has literal statistics on, actual proof, with the antiairs.
 
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CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
When I really consider how the game goes especially online I think patching could mitigate issues at least...I dunno if it could fix everything since every aspect of the gameplay has got issues going on. But maybe with hard work...but I don't expect NRS to do that.
I can't recommend the PVP to folks...it's the characters, content, production values the game has going for it.

But yeah, it's a game that favors jumping but you aren't supposed to jump over projectiles, heh.

When someone teleports next to you sometimes you can do something...other times they get free damage because they decided to teleport next to you. And you're (trying) to do the same move that worked in a similar situation.

Rudimentary punishment is missing from the game...instead offensive cheese is favored.

The way hitboxes and hurtboxes work...ouch...

Injustice 2 had issues itself, there were ways around things but NRS took a step back with MK11 really.
This just sounds like you don’t know how to punish teleports. There’s not a single tele in the game that’s free damage if you’re scouting it.

It’s not a good idea to base analysis of the game on low-level play.
 
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And your point mine. The tech window is irrelevant if it's a legit 50/50. All I'm saying is if this game had legit anti airs and throws were not a guess every time it would be great imo.
Throws are always a read. You can't tech on reaction in most FG because the window is too tight you need to be enticipating the throw. In MK11 If you re enticipating the throw you can duck boom no 50/50 that way. The throws are fine the way they are. If they don't make them 50/50 they'll have to make them mids and make the tech window smaller and why bother?I wouldn't mind tbh because it's the same to me.
 
Why are you surprised? It's the MK community, it's never going to change. This is the same community that had 1 cyrax at the end of MK9, 1 mileena in MKX, 1 cetrion/cassie etc.

A franchise based on attracting casuals. 8 years later, MK is the only fighting game 90% of them play, even pros. And what are those fighting games? MKX with the run in 50-50s, MK9 with its brokenness. Most of them after from MKX. And now they're playing a game where not every r3tard can run in and steal games.

This is why pros leaving around 2015 brought the site to its knees and the community scattered.

Look at this thread, people are calling them negative nancies when the things they say are factually true ( except paul b, that dude is a whiny dickbag and a half ). They're tearing into a podcast for points that REO has literal statistics on, actual proof, with the antiairs.
TBF I disagree with their points and their philosophy. I don't think what the game need is what they say. REO want jump in to be this super risky thing and I don't, he says AA shouldn't be a huge skill so he is for lowering the AA barrier. They say throw should never be 50/50 and don't understand that just like M2Dave said it would make them useless. They say that top players like Foxy say the game is good because they are too invested in it I disagree. and this goes back to MKX where I disagreed with REO's proposed change. I don't think I'll ever agree with them for the most part and their Fg philosophy and I hate the fact that they act like it's law.

I think they act like what they say should be implemented to save the game and NRS are dumbasses for not doing it but I think a lot of those idea are worthless and should not be in this game. They love to site Tekken for their argument and vision but forget not everyone plays tekken. COmplain about Geras and how NRS were stupid to make him that way but then you have the top Tekken has had in it's Cycle the Akuma, the Kazumi, The Geese etc they were all as stupid as Geras. At the end of the day top tier is gonna top tier no matter what. AND THEN THEY INVITED PAUL B to compare it to KI and I was done.
 
You can, but you cannot react to auto-shimmy strings because the start up looks like a throw animation or to forward and back throw respectively for obvious reasons.

Throws are powerful yet balanced considering krushing blow d+2s are every character's most damaging launchers, which also lead to massive unbreakable damage with fatal blows. So even if you are comfortably sitting at 45% life, whiffing a throw will kill you.
I thought you always had enough time to identify a throw while blocking but maybe it's because I never really fight top players, I guess throws are even better than I thought. I think the solution would be to make throws require two escape fail in order to activate its krushing blows as well as reducing the damage to 12%. Sonic Fox suggested the escape fail requirement and I agree, I think that's how they were in the beta.

P.S: NRS should make custom variations tournament legal as well, I do enjoy MK11 but the beta was so much fun :(
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
AND THEN THEY INVITED PAUL B to compare it to KI and I was done.
REO invited Paul B.

Original and different opinions are welcome on the podcast, but most of Cherny's and Paul B.'s opinions are baseless assertions. Calling Mortal Kombat 11 random is most certainly the wildest claim I have ever heard about the game.
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
You can, but you cannot react to auto-shimmy strings because the start up looks like a throw animation or to forward and back throw respectively for obvious reasons.

Throws are powerful yet balanced considering krushing blow d+2s are every character's most damaging launchers, which also lead to massive unbreakable damage with fatal blows. So even if you are comfortably sitting at 45% life, whiffing a throw will kill you.



Claiming that the game was designed in a way to attract casual gamers is most definitely a legitimate criticism, but claiming that the game is random is nonsense. There is no evidence in the competitive scene to support this claim. Tournament results are stable and consistent. The better player, including the player who puts in the time and work, always wins. Players may lose to certain match ups and variations due to unfamiliarity, but this has absolutely nothing to do with randomness and is no different from any other fighting game.

Some of the game's gameplay aspects can be criticized fairly such as the inconsistent hitboxes, the armor on fatal blows, and the variation system, which NRS may actually pay attention to. Making up stuff about the game just because you dislike it serves no purpose and accomplishes nothing.
Which part you think i made up? The random factor? Why? 50/50 throws are not random in a game that does not allow throw break while blocking? There are characters who have 2 KB from throws only. Thats 62% dmg from throws.

Random FB's are not a random factor? You see some1 with 20% hp and you are afraid to advance cause of that alone. And you if manage to block it then yeah opponent gets it again after what, 9 seconds? It should be gone on block, period.

Characters who have true 50/50s to full combos while others have nothing?

Yolo d2s which are safe on block and lead up to 50% dmg on KB?

How exactly are the above i mentioned, not random mechanics which require ABSOLUTELY no labbing?

Not to mention incosistent hitboxes especially on females.

Imo, all KB's should activate ONLY on punishes. That, or reduce the dmg they do.

If the above is applied, throws can remain 50/50.
 

Gaxkang

Banned
This just sounds like you don’t know how to punish teleports. There’s not a single tele in the game that’s free damage if you’re scouting it.

It’s not a good idea to base analysis of the game on low-level play.
The teleport issues with say Raiden or Scarlet I've seen in the past have involved blocking when the tele happens but the block not happening, or trying to attack them (even with just one's fastest move) and instead their attack lands.
Other times the game's rules will work correctly and the teleport won't have the seemingly really plus properties.

I'd chalk it up to the online which does have to be part of analyzing the game. In mitigating it....perhaps when one sees the teleport just trying to jump away would at least end the situation (hopefully).
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Which part you think i made up? The random factor? Why? 50/50 throws are not random in a game that does not allow throw break while blocking? There are characters who have 2 KB from throws only. Thats 62% dmg from throws.

Random FB's are not a random factor? You see some1 with 20% hp and you are afraid to advance cause of that alone. And you if manage to block it then yeah opponent gets it again after what, 9 seconds? It should be gone on block, period.

Characters who have true 50/50s to full combos while others have nothing?

Yolo d2s which are safe on block and lead up to 50% dmg on KB?

How exactly are the above i mentioned, not random mechanics which require ABSOLUTELY no labbing?

Not to mention incosistent hitboxes especially on females.

Imo, all KB's should activate ONLY on punishes. That, or reduce the dmg they do.

If the above is applied, throws can remain 50/50.
As I have already stated countless times, tournament results do not support this "the game is random" theory. An inferior player is not beating a superior player with fatal blows, krushing blows, throws, uppercuts, and/or even inconsistent hitboxes, which I have criticized on various occasions on TYM as well as the podcast. In other words, there has been no evidence in which players like King Jr., Ninja Killer, Rewind, Semiij, Sonic Fox, Tekken Master Tweedy, etc. randomly lose to worse players because of the game's allegedly random mechanics. Mortal Kombat X was one of the biggest 50/50 mix up fighting games in recent memory. If that game was not random and had consistent tournament results, why would Mortal Kombat 11, a much more honest fighting game by comparison, be suddenly random?

To address one of your points directly, tournament players realize that almost all characters with double krushing blows on throws lack okizeme on either the forward and back throw so they are reluctant to tech. Perhaps this knowledge plays more of a role than your "this game is random" theory.

To address another one of your points, the best players reliably punish fatal blows on block so that their opponents do not have a second opportunity to use them again.

If you dislike the game, just say so and move on. Just stop making up stuff please.
 

Gooberking

FGC Cannon Fodder
I listened to it, and been watching this thing go. It all sounds more like observations to me. Well OK, so it can degenerate into poke fest at times. but is that violating some FG standard? If, so where is it? I've heard lots of "things are this way and leads to this stuff we don't like" talk over the years, but rarely is there some, concrete example of what should have been done (dictating a solution in a bottle doesn't count). I suspect because one doesn't exist, even though people almost talk like it does.

The only thing I'm really vibing with is how it sure would be nice if normals were buffered during block stun so you punish stuff without the attack equivalent of hitting a flawless block. If you only have 2 frames or so to hit a punish or enforce advantage, then you better know when that 2 frame window starts. There are so many times where the first button gets swallowed and second is a death sentence. Raiden is a good example where one of his best punishes is b12, but it's so easy to end up with b2 which is slow, easily punished, and stubby. You don't want to ever just do it, and it's the worst case fail over possible for a being a frame too early while also being the most likely way to fail. It's not just that you miss your punish, it's that you execute yourself trying to punish. That doesn't feel great, and it rewards aggression by making defense difficult.

That said, it rewards aggression by making defense difficult, and that's not totally a wrong way for a game to operate. Lots of little things let people mash right through what should make mashing a stupid idea. It lets the game still have some weight rewarding aggression in low through mid or mid-high levels where people are going to be most tempted and feel most rewarded playing that way. At high levels the idea being pro's have the timing down well enough to do what needs doing to overcome that strategy. Does that mean everyone wants that strictness and consequence in the game? No. Does that mean it's objectively wrong for it to function that way? I kind of doubt it. What if it slows the game down more in a game that some people already feel is slow and kind of boring? Is that something NRS is going to want for the entire playerbase, not just for say a few players in podcast?

When you get down to it, lots of games have aspects that are difficult. Hitting cancellation windows and dial a strings aren't that stiff in this game. It's just the after block stuff that feels ridged. A baby may be able to punish things in Tekken, but it takes a grown ass adult just to move in it. Then there is the massive knowledge burden to drops on you. Under Night feels pretty good in Neutral in the sense that the controls do what you want, but doing combos you better be ready to do stuff that is even stricter in timings than any MK11 punish; like wiffing moves at precise times and micro hesitations. Some of those suckers are super rough. A game having a difficult element isn't unheard of. Tekken isn't for babies just because they can do punishes in Tekken. I still think I'd personally dig a buffer window of some kind.

I'm definitely not a super beefy FG monster. I lose to all the dumb stuff and don't really clue in to obvious things sometimes. Yet if there is one fighting game ever that I don't feel like I lose to dumb, random stuff it's this one. When I lose I get I'm just not paying attention enough to how they are waking up. I'm losing because in my head I'm hearing "OMG they are jumping. I suck at AA's. Should I AA? I shouldn't, but what else do I do? Oh, god I just d2'ed. Oh, god I was too late to d2, Why didn't I d3? Next time I should d3. Wait, did they jump again? What do I do now? I should d2. (¬_¬)" That's why I lose in this game. Other games it's more like "WTF was all of that? 300 hours in and I didn't even know that was a thing. I don't even understand what is happening RN." One game makes defense hard by strict execution, the other is hard by filling the game with so much BS you have to get a PHD in it to know what to do. Both suck and mean you get hit a lot.

I get steam rolled all the time, so that's probably way more opinion than I have business having, but I don't do short type.
 

Gaxkang

Banned
I'm definitely not a super beefy FG monster. I lose to all the dumb stuff and don't really clue in to obvious things sometimes. Yet if there is one fighting game ever that I don't feel like I lose to dumb, random stuff it's this one. When I lose I get I'm just not paying attention enough to how they are waking up. I'm losing because in my head I'm hearing "OMG they are jumping. I suck at AA's. Should I AA? I shouldn't, but what else do I do? Oh, god I just d2'ed. Oh, god I was too late to d2, Why didn't I d3? Next time I should d3. Wait, did they jump again? What do I do now? I should d2. (¬_¬)" That's why I lose in this game. Other games it's more like "WTF was all of that? 300 hours in and I didn't even know that was a thing. I don't even understand what is happening RN." One game makes defense hard by strict execution, the other is hard by filling the game with so much BS you have to get a PHD in it to know what to do. Both suck and mean you get hit a lot.

I get steam rolled all the time, so that's probably way more opinion than I have business having, but I don't do short type.
I have to break out of my habit of trying to pressure on someone's wakeup like in another fighting game sort...in this, they want the attacker to basically just sit there and see if the person does something (and hopefully can punish it). If they do nothing...well, the situation just resets to how things were before the knockdown.

But the AA's...the thing with them is in another sorta game jumps people eat all the time in this they would AA all the time instead. The issue isn't new with NRS...they just won't change it.
I just can't blame the player when it comes to AA's and NRS. And like the idea of Terminator's d3 I think being considered a good AA is ridiculous from a design POV...but NRS made it. :confused:
 

Wigy

There it is...
This just sounds like you don’t know how to punish teleports. There’s not a single tele in the game that’s free damage if you’re scouting it.

It’s not a good idea to base analysis of the game on low-level play.
To be fair, reacting to cetrions teleport is a nightmare with how much bullshit you have to scout out all the time. Then when you do she can teleport away and check you with puddle.

Other characters it's fine.
 

dribirut

BLAK FELOW
I think the game is awesome but that’s not to say it doesn’t have flaws.

I’ve said it time and time again. This wake up system belongs in mkx not mk11..
 

dribirut

BLAK FELOW
Also I don’t think jiks would be such a problem if they were -5 or -7 and at it’s absolutely lowest point neutral on block
 
I don't think the problem is that the game stops good players from winning, but the game is just boring. My heart also goes out to Capcom, their rate of SFV DLC has gone down dramatically after NRS snagged all their devs.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I think the game is awesome but that’s not to say it doesn’t have flaws.
I agree.

Low profiling is acceptable, but all hitbox inconsistencies ought to be fixed. For example, a character's best move (i.e., Johnny Cage's EX forceballs) should not whiff on any crouch-blocking characters. I am aware that NRS have somewhat been fixing these issues slowly one at a time (i.e., Geras's f+2,1,2, Kitana's razors, Sub Zero's creeping ice, etc.)

Fatal blows should have no armor. The fact that they have long ranges and ignore breakaways are adequate advantages to this comeback mechanic.

Rolling should not exist. Offensive tools are insufficiently strong to justify this wake up option. If I knock my opponent down, I have earned the right to press the advantage to its fullest extent without having to back off to bait the forward roll.

The variation system is flawed and nonfunctional for the vast majority of characters, but complaining about variations is fruitless at this point. They are to Mortal Kombat 11 what peanut butter and jelly are to bread.

With the possible exception of hitbox fixes, none of these aspects are broken to the extent that they must be addressed immediately. However, they are poorly, or at the very least strangely, designed in my estimation.
 

dribirut

BLAK FELOW
I agree.

Low profiling is acceptable, but all hitbox inconsistencies ought to be fixed. For example, a character's best move (i.e., Johnny Cage's EX forceballs) should not whiff on any crouch-blocking characters. I am aware that NRS have somewhat been fixing these issues slowly one at a time (i.e., Geras's f+2,1,2, Kitana's razors, Sub Zero's creeping ice, etc.)

Fatal blows should have no armor. The fact that they have long ranges and ignore breakaways are adequate advantages to this comeback mechanic.

Rolling should not exist. Offensive tools are insufficiently strong to justify this wake up option. If I knock my opponent down, I have earned the right to press the advantage to its fullest extent without having to back off to bait the forward roll.

The variation system is flawed and nonfunctional for the vast majority of characters, but complaining about variations is fruitless at this point. They are to Mortal Kombat 11 what peanut butter and jelly are to bread.

With the possible exception of hitbox fixes, none of these aspects are broken to the extent that they must be addressed immediately. However, they are poorly, or at the very least strangely, designed in my estimation.
Hey btw. After usually whooping your butt in sets you handed it to me last time. I need a run back soon. My jacqui is getting scary
 
According to our friend M2dave, if we play a game that 100 people are thrown in a pool full of snakes for 10 minutes, and the last 5 or 10 that survive are the winners, the game is fair.
The game started and some died, some got injuries, some got frustrated (90...95% of them), but 5 survived among 100 and they were rewarded receiving trophies, money, recognition and so on.

HENCE , THE GAME IS FAIR.
 
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Among 7 billion humans alive, there will be some with better IQ, better reflexes, with time to practice and go to training mode and attend to tournaments....etc....but this is the minority.

The results of the top 8 and the consistency is way more related to their talent than "the game is ok to compete".

If are playing a game that is not fair, but the majority have an IQ of 100, and two or 5 fuckers with 130 or plus IQ...dude probably they are going to win.
The game still suck.
 

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
Among 7 billion humans alive, there will be some with better IQ, better reflexes, with time to practice and go to training mode and attend to tournaments....etc....but this is the minority.

The results of the top 8 and the consistency is way more related to their talent than "the game is ok to compete".

If are playing a game that is not fair, but the majority have an IQ of 100, and two or 5 fuckers with 130 or plus IQ...dude probably they are going to win.
The game still suck.
Your losing so there has to be no other reason then the game being flawed that makes you lose or not get top 8. Sounds right
 
I honestly have an aneurysm reading people say that the best players being consistently the best at a game doesn't mean it's competitively... consistent.
This is r/ihadastroke levels of mindfuckery to me
Even though this a hyperbole there are professional poker players but there is no way you are going to tell me that poker is not random or an inconsistent game. People can learn how put the odds in their favor and there overall skill should win a majority of the time. But that's not the game being consistent that is them. I'm not saying Mk11 is random my only stance is consistent players does not equal a consistent game. Mk11 is a fighting game and at it's core it will be pretty hard to make it completely random or inconsistent but some mechanics or factors about the game can impact how consistent it truly can be.