Subzero General Discussion Thread

[mrapchem]

GO1 Vs Lord Kuz (Jade)

I mean absolutely no disrespect to either of the players in this set or to fredchuckdave for posting this video, but after merely looking at the first round of the first match, I can definitely understand why there is so much vitriol surrounding this character and his 50/50s. And this is coming from a person whose main character is Sub-Zero and has been that way from Mortal Kombat 1 on the SNES all the way through every single MK game. The game hasn't even been conceptualized yet I'm sure, but I already know that in Mortal Kombat 12, my main will be Sub-Zero.

Though most of what non-Sub Zero players have been saying about him has turned out to be fake news - "he has safe 50/50s" or "he has an unreactable overhead" - they have a valid concern: Sub-Zero gets to put people in a blender off of a single freeze or whiff punish. Granted, the blender isn't safe and ends as soon as the opponent guesses correctly, but it is still a blender nonetheless. And in a game like this, where every single step, dash and jump is a guess, having to make even more guesses (that can be consecutive in nature) simply because you got hit is ridiculous.

Sub-Zero doesn't need any adjustments to the 50/50s themselves in terms of their start-up, safety on block or anything of the sort. However it is quite clear - and I have been advocating this since my very first posts - that Sub-Zero has no business being able to loop his 50/50s using standing 2, back 1-4 or back 3-2.

Sub-Zero's S2, B14 and B32 must have their advantage on hit severely reduced so that Sub-Zero players cannot loop their opponents with 50/50s.

He has so much else going for him; Sub-Zero does not need to place people in a perpetual guessing game of oh/low in order to be good. I haven't looped an opponent in any of my matches the way that has been displayed in this video, not because I'm taking some kind of moral high ground, but rather because I anticipate that NRS will indeed take away his loop and I need to be able to win without it, which I'm currently doing.

I understand that this loop is optimal in certain situations, but it shouldn't even exist in the first place and is likely unintentional due to the rushed nature of this game's release. I also understand that I am not alone in feeling this way among Sub players - I wanted to make this post not only so that NRS can see it and make the necessary adjustments, but also so that everyone else that doesn't use Sub-Zero can see it and know that we don't want Sub to be this way any more than they do.

Winning due to a vortex doesn't feel like winning to me - it feels more like luck. That's because it is nothing but luck that stopped the opponent from blocking that overhead high and consequently full-combo punishing. Shout-out to fredchuckdave for posting this video.

 

[Qwark28]

Wish there was a human version of captcha that confirmed whether you had taken your meds or not before posting

 

[Lokheit]

Wow, that text wall for basically some 150-170 damage combos where one of the options is punishable... wait for them to make Ground Ice tournament legal, then you will know what a loop is xD

You change those advantages, you destroy the character. Not because of the loop, but because of how they affect other vital parts of his game.

 

[RM Ree]

I just start mashing...

This is how I play 99% of MK11

 

[RM Ree]

I mean absolutely no disrespect to either of the players in this set or to fredchuckdave for posting this video, but after merely looking at the first round of the first match, I can definitely understand why there is so much vitriol surrounding this character and his 50/50s. And this is coming from a person whose main character is Sub-Zero and has been that way from Mortal Kombat 1 on the SNES all the way through every single MK game. The game hasn't even been conceptualized yet I'm sure, but I already know that in Mortal Kombat 12, my main will be Sub-Zero.

Though most of what non-Sub Zero players have been saying about him has turned out to be fake news - "he has safe 50/50s" or "he has an unreactable overhead" - they have a valid concern: Sub-Zero gets to put people in a blender off of a single freeze or whiff punish. Granted, the blender isn't safe and ends as soon as the opponent guesses correctly, but it is still a blender nonetheless. And in a game like this, where every single step, dash and jump is a guess, having to make even more guesses (that can be consecutive in nature) simply because you got hit is ridiculous.

Sub-Zero doesn't need any adjustments to the 50/50s themselves in terms of their start-up, safety on block or anything of the sort. However it is quite clear - and I have been advocating this since my very first posts - that Sub-Zero has no business being able to loop his 50/50s using standing 2, back 1-4 or back 3-2.

Sub-Zero's S2, B14 and B32 must have their advantage on hit severely reduced so that Sub-Zero players cannot loop their opponents with 50/50s.

He has so much else going for him; Sub-Zero does not need to place people in a perpetual guessing game of oh/low in order to be good. I haven't looped an opponent in any of my matches the way that has been displayed in this video, not because I'm taking some kind of moral high ground, but rather because I anticipate that NRS will indeed take away his loop and I need to be able to win without it, which I'm currently doing.

I understand that this loop is optimal in certain situations, but it shouldn't even exist in the first place and is likely unintentional due to the rushed nature of this game's release. I also understand that I am not alone in feeling this way among Sub players - I wanted to make this post not only so that NRS can see it and make the necessary adjustments, but also so that everyone else that doesn't use Sub-Zero can see it and know that we don't want Sub to be this way any more than they do.

Winning due to a vortex doesn't feel like winning to me - it feels more like luck. That's because it is nothing but luck that stopped the opponent from blocking that overhead high and consequently full-combo punishing. Shout-out to fredchuckdave for posting this video.

A lot of characters in the game have restands with frame advantage, and I’m wondering who wins and loses hardest after a successful restand > pressure considering things like strike/ throw, offensive meter, frame adv, KBs, etc.

SZ restand gets 15% (18 w/ meter), loses ~15% (remainder of full combo), high frame adv. (+16), reactable 50/50, ~ 30% damage dealt/ taken (OH hit blocked), ~30% damage dealt/ turn lost (low hit/ blocked), 14% throw (net negative, just finish the combo), 31% KB throw if loaded but no oki, or another 15% (18 w/ bar) restand. Best possible outcome = ~45% knockdown. Worst possible = ~30% full combo punish

Kabal restand gets ~30% (1 bar, not required for restand), full combo/ no damage lost, low frame adv. (+2), strike/ throw mix/ w/ strong normals, f4 1+3 (9f mid KH KB, safe), b12d2 (KH KB, safe), 14% throw, ~30% KB throw if loaded, general pressure. Best possible outcome = 60-70% w/ restand. Worst possible = ~30%, turn lost.

Kabal’s restand seems at least competitive with SZ’s, and I’m being pretty generous saying that. You could argue the likelihood of SZ’s OH/low landing vs. Kabal’s strike/ throw, but I still think Kabal wins out given the least damaging successful option nets ~45% safely.

After Kabal, we got Cassie, Frost, Cetrion, Jacqui, Sonya, Scorpion, Jax, Geras, Johnny, etc, all with varying restands.

 

[grimpanda]

But Kabals Restand is only +1 , while sub zero is a guaranteed mixup

 

[Versa]

I mean absolutely no disrespect to either of the players in this set or to fredchuckdave for posting this video, but after merely looking at the first round of the first match, I can definitely understand why there is so much vitriol surrounding this character and his 50/50s. And this is coming from a person whose main character is Sub-Zero and has been that way from Mortal Kombat 1 on the SNES all the way through every single MK game. The game hasn't even been conceptualized yet I'm sure, but I already know that in Mortal Kombat 12, my main will be Sub-Zero.

Though most of what non-Sub Zero players have been saying about him has turned out to be fake news - "he has safe 50/50s" or "he has an unreactable overhead" - they have a valid concern: Sub-Zero gets to put people in a blender off of a single freeze or whiff punish. Granted, the blender isn't safe and ends as soon as the opponent guesses correctly, but it is still a blender nonetheless. And in a game like this, where every single step, dash and jump is a guess, having to make even more guesses (that can be consecutive in nature) simply because you got hit is ridiculous.

Sub-Zero doesn't need any adjustments to the 50/50s themselves in terms of their start-up, safety on block or anything of the sort. However it is quite clear - and I have been advocating this since my very first posts - that Sub-Zero has no business being able to loop his 50/50s using standing 2, back 1-4 or back 3-2.

Sub-Zero's S2, B14 and B32 must have their advantage on hit severely reduced so that Sub-Zero players cannot loop their opponents with 50/50s.

He has so much else going for him; Sub-Zero does not need to place people in a perpetual guessing game of oh/low in order to be good. I haven't looped an opponent in any of my matches the way that has been displayed in this video, not because I'm taking some kind of moral high ground, but rather because I anticipate that NRS will indeed take away his loop and I need to be able to win without it, which I'm currently doing.

I understand that this loop is optimal in certain situations, but it shouldn't even exist in the first place and is likely unintentional due to the rushed nature of this game's release. I also understand that I am not alone in feeling this way among Sub players - I wanted to make this post not only so that NRS can see it and make the necessary adjustments, but also so that everyone else that doesn't use Sub-Zero can see it and know that we don't want Sub to be this way any more than they do.

Winning due to a vortex doesn't feel like winning to me - it feels more like luck. That's because it is nothing but luck that stopped the opponent from blocking that overhead high and consequently full-combo punishing. Shout-out to fredchuckdave for posting this video.

This character isn't as good as you think he is. Nerf the vortex without giving him other tools to work with and he's definitely done competitively.

 

[mrapchem]

This character isn't as good as you think he is. Nerf the vortex without giving him other tools to work with and he's definitely done competitively.

Sub-Zero is in a much better spot than most of the cast competitively, and at the highest level, the loop isn't even truly viable because our best players are reacting to the overhead and punishing it consistently. Not to mention, a good chunk of tournament Sub-Zeros aren't even playing the DoW variation because of its linear, 50/50-reliant meta.

 

[RM Ree]

But Kabals Restand is only +1 , while sub zero is a guaranteed mixup

It’s +2 and leaves him close with dat 9f mid. If you hit a button, try to jump, move back, duck do anything you get hit into a safe string and the revolution ends up doing ~50%. It’s safe, deals more than SZ’s successful vortex and conditions the opponent to block which opens up the throw option.

It’s an interesting comparison!

 

[mrapchem]

It’s +2 and leaves him close with dat 9f mid. If you hit a button, try to jump, move back, duck do anything you get hit into a safe string and the revolution ends up doing ~50%. It’s safe, deals more than SZ’s successful vortex and conditions the opponent to block which opens up the throw option.

It’s an interesting comparison!

But the opponent can jump out of Kabal's re-stand or poke out, even if they merely get a trade. Off of Sub's S2, both his overhead and low are guaranteed. From B32, the opponent can interrupt the overhead, but only has 3 frames to do so, while the low is completely free. I'm not trying to say that re-stands shouldn't exist or anything of the sort; I'm saying that Sub-Zero should not be able to continuously loop people with oh/low mix-up off a +10, +16 or +22 re-stand option.

If any other character had double-digit plus frames into guaranteed oh/low follow ups, we would be up in arms about it. Our character doesn't need it.

 

[mrapchem]

Wish there was a human version of captcha that confirmed whether you had taken your meds or not before posting

I'm sorry, I must have misread the title of the thread! I was under the impression that this was a Sub-Zero discussion thread where people...I don't know...talk about Sub-Zero? Maybe I'm trippin'!

Wow, that text wall for basically some 150-170 damage combos where one of the options is punishable... wait for them to make Ground Ice tournament legal, then you will know what a loop is xD



You change those advantages, you destroy the character. Not because of the loop, but because of how they affect other vital parts of his game.

Who says that I'm not keenly aware of how busted the Ground Freeze move is? I made a variation with that move and Rising Ice that can continuously re-stand people from 200+ damage combos setups into oh/low follow ups that can either re-stand again of cash out on damage. That move needs a total re-work in functionality; the only reason everyone else isn't complaining about it is because it isn't tourney-legal.

Sub not being +16 or +22 anymore after freezing the opponent would have very little effect on him tournament-wise. He would still have excellent pokes, great KBs, a fast low, a combo-starting projectile that can nullify zoning, a safe, launching mid that is a fantastic AA, and a terrific forward throw that loops into itself or allows a 50/50 follow-up.

We're already seeing our tournament opponents blow up our looping attempts by reacting to and punishing our overhead - this means we're going to need to rely on the 50/50 less and less as the meta evolves anyways. The loop needs to go.

 

[Lokheit]

Sub-Zero is in a much better spot than most of the cast competitively, and at the highest level, the loop isn't even truly viable because our best players are reacting to the overhead and punishing it consistently. Not to mention, a good chunk of tournament Sub-Zeros aren't even playing the DoW variation because of its linear, 50/50-reliant meta.

Then if you know it, why do you want to butcher his strings to get rid of something you're saying isn't truly viable?

 

[mrapchem]

Then if you know it, why do you want to butcher his strings to get rid of something you're saying isn't truly viable?

You realize that you can change the hit advantage of a string without changing its properties, right? I'm not saying that they shouldn't be special-cancellable anymore - I'm saying that they should have the same advantage on hit as the 21 string, which if I remember correctly is roughly +4 on hit, jails from D1 and is his fastest, hit-confirmable punish.

I want it to be changed because we know the history of what happens to this character - he is strong in the beginning of the game, but then people whine and complain about various aspects of his gameplay which leads to NRS hitting him with the nerf bat and going too far, nerfing things about him that never needed to be changed. I'm trying to get ahead of this trend by openly listing what ought to be adjusted - something that would have a minimal impact on his gameplay - instead of letting the anti-Sub, pitchfork-toting crowd control the narrative.

 

[ogrimtitan]

You realize that you can change the hit advantage of a string without changing its properties, right? I'm not saying that they shouldn't be special-cancellable anymore - I'm saying that they should have the same advantage on hit as the 21 string, which if I remember correctly is roughly +4 on hit, jails from D1 and is his fastest, hit-confirmable punish.

I want it to be changed because we know the history of what happens to this character - he is strong in the beginning of the game, but then people whine and complain about various aspects of his gameplay which leads to NRS hitting him with the nerf bat and going too far, nerfing things about him that never needed to be changed. I'm trying to get ahead of this trend by openly listing what ought to be adjusted - something that would have a minimal impact on his gameplay - instead of letting the anti-Sub, pitchfork-toting crowd control the narrative.

Sub has been my co-favorite character (alongside Raiden) since I was peering over the controls of my mall arcade's MK1 machine in the early 90s. I love him and will always try to play him, and I would LOVE if they would get rid of DoW's 50/50 with the very first patch. I hate 50/50s in general, and they're way too extreme for the game MK11 was obviously built to be. It's too strong a tool, which means the devs have to neuter literally everything else Sub has or else be inundated with constant nerf cries. Frankly, I think it was a late, lazy or time-crunched addition to the game. I think they were slamming out these "Tournament" variations days before the game was scheduled to drop, and throwing in a 50/50 vortex here or there because it was already technically possible in the character's frame data was an easy way to tick off a couple of the 50 variations they had to make. It sucks. Get rid of it, so they can buff Sub's other, much more interesting tools and put them into variations that are both competitive AND cool.

 

[mrapchem]

Sub has been my co-favorite character (alongside Raiden) since I was peering over the controls of my mall arcade's MK1 machine in the early 90s. I love him and will always try to play him, and I would LOVE if they would get rid of DoW's 50/50 with the very first patch. I hate 50/50s in general, and they're way too extreme for the game MK11 was obviously built to be. It's too strong a tool, which means the devs have to neuter literally everything else Sub has or else be inundated with constant nerf cries. Frankly, I think it was a late, lazy or time-crunched addition to the game. I think they were slamming out these "Tournament" variations days before the game was scheduled to drop, and throwing in a 50/50 vortex here or there because it was already technically possible in the character's frame data was an easy way to tick off a couple of the 50 variations they had to make. It sucks. Get rid of it, so they can buff Sub's other, much more interesting tools and put them into variations that are both competitive AND cool.

I don't necessarily hate 50/50s or think that Sub's 50/50 needs to disappear altogether, but I agree with you - the rushed nature of this game seems to have affected these tournament variations negatively. He has much more to offer than simply mix-loop-mix and he has good tools that need a few tweaks (those so-called grounded non-freezing 'projectiles' of his) in order to be great tools. You are right though: that vortex is super-dukey and needs to go.

 

[RM Ree]

But the opponent can jump out of Kabal's re-stand or poke out, even if they merely get a trade. Off of Sub's S2, both his overhead and low are guaranteed. From B32, the opponent can interrupt the overhead, but only has 3 frames to do so, while the low is completely free. I'm not trying to say that re-stands shouldn't exist or anything of the sort; I'm saying that Sub-Zero should not be able to continuously loop people with oh/low mix-up off a +10, +16 or +22 re-stand option.

If any other character had double-digit plus frames into guaranteed oh/low follow ups, we would be up in arms about it. Our character doesn't need it.

But you can’t jump tho u big silly, f4 catches it. 6f pokes win if you’re frame perfect (coughmashcough), but he could poke too and enforce the advantage. Then you in the shit again.

If you’re using s2, doesn’t the restand go from 15% to like 12? For real, even with a guaranteed OH/ low it’s still worse than a lot of other restands in the best of times.

 

[mrapchem]

But you can’t jump tho u big silly, f4 catches it. 6f pokes win if you’re frame perfect (coughmashcough), but he could poke too and enforce the advantage. Then you in the shit again.

If you’re using s2, doesn’t the re-stand go from 15% to like 12? For real, even with a guaranteed OH/ low it’s still worse than a lot of other restands in the best of times.

I'm sure you're not wrong about Kabal's options, but being +2 with a mid/throw mix-up that doesn't loop with both options doesn't quite stack up with being either +16 or +22 with an oh/low situation that does. Kabal would be comparable to Johnny Cage who has a +5 re-stand with an 8-frame +17 D4 or a throw/ 7-frame S1 that can loop into the re-stand again.

To your question, yes, the re-stand's damage does get reduced, but in return, Sub-Zero gets an uninterruptible oh/low mix. Every other re-stand in the game at least allows the opponent the option to possibly disrupt the offense by either jumping or mashing. I'm not saying it's the best, but it certainly can't be among the worst in the game.

What do you make of Sub's vortex? Do you think it should remain as is or go?

 

[RM Ree]

I'm sure you're not wrong about Kabal's options, but being +2 with a mid/throw mix-up that doesn't loop with both options doesn't quite stack up with being either +16 or +22 with an oh/low situation that does. Kabal would be comparable to Johnny Cage who has a +5 re-stand with an 8-frame +17 D4 or a throw/ 7-frame S1 that can loop into the re-stand again.

To your question, yes, the re-stand's damage does get reduced, but in return, Sub-Zero gets an uninterruptible oh/low mix. Every other re-stand in the game at least allows the opponent the option to possibly disrupt the offense by either jumping or mashing. I'm not saying it's the best, but it certainly can't be among the worst in the game.

What do you make of Sub's vortex? Do you think it should remain as is or go?

Well, if you look at only the restand, SZ definitely has the advantage. But when you look at the whole situation, Kabal getting full combo damage and a guess is better than SZ getting half combo damage and a guess, especially when Kabal’s guessing game is so much safer.

Should it go? No, I don’t think so. I think restands in MK11 are great given how powerful wake up options are.

It sucks to be looped, but in perspective it takes 3 consecutive loops (b32 xx ice ball, ji2, s2...12%) to deal the 1 combos worth of damage an opponent would punish you for if they guess right one time.

 

[mrapchem]

Well, if you look at only the restand, SZ definitely has the advantage. But when you look at the whole situation, Kabal getting full combo damage and a guess is better than SZ getting half combo damage and a guess, especially when Kabal’s guessing game is so much safer.

Should it go? No, I don’t think so. I think restands in MK11 are great given how powerful wake up options are.

It sucks to be looped, but in perspective it takes 3 consecutive loops (b32 xx ice ball, ji2, s2...12%) to deal the 1 combos worth of damage an opponent would punish you for if they guess right one time.

Sub-Zero would have a re-stand no matter if it was +22, +12, -5 or whatever simply because he doesn't need to launch in order to combo. And yes, re-stands are indeed powerful in this game and are great to have no matter who the character is.

If the Sub is using B32 as the loop ender, it would only take 2 reps to deal the same damage that the opponent would punish with if they guessed right on the overhead. The opponent gets nothing for guessing correctly on the low, except their turn back - if our 6-frame D1 doesn't reach them first.

The issue at play is that NRS promised a departure from the MKX meta of constant 50/50 pressure in MK11 and for the most part, it lived up to that promise, with the exception of some of its top-tier characters. Sub-Zero completely deviates from this promise by getting partial/fully guaranteed 50/50 loops off his normals and strings without the requirement of resources. This provokes the ire of the rest of MK11's player base and makes us Sub-Zero advocates look shady and scrubby when we defend it, especially given how Grandmaster Sub-Zero was allowed to use this exact same tactic in the corner during the entirety of MKX without so much as a scintilla of protest from us.

If we keep defending this loop, our anti-Sub counterparts will complain loudly enough to get our character nerf-batted D'Vorah-style. This movie has been played twice already.

Perhaps in MKX Sub-Zero might have needed 50/50 loops to compete against the Piercings, the Hish-Qu-Tens, the Boneshapers/Necromancers, the MOSs/Mystics and Tempests - along with some other variations whose names I've happily forgotten now. However this is MK11 - Sub-Zero doesn't need that 50/50-vortex mess anymore.

 

[Lokheit]

Sub-Zero would have a re-stand no matter if it was +22, +12, -5 or whatever simply because he doesn't need to launch in order to combo. And yes, re-stands are indeed powerful in this game and are great to have no matter who the character is.

If the Sub is using B32 as the loop ender, it would only take 2 reps to deal the same damage that the opponent would punish with if they guessed right on the overhead. The opponent gets nothing for guessing correctly on the low, except their turn back - if our 6-frame D1 doesn't reach them first.

The issue at play is that NRS promised a departure from the MKX meta of constant 50/50 pressure in MK11 and for the most part, it lived up to that promise, with the exception of some of its top-tier characters. Sub-Zero completely deviates from this promise by getting partial/fully guaranteed 50/50 loops off his normals and strings without the requirement of resources. This provokes the ire of the rest of MK11's player base and makes us Sub-Zero advocates look shady and scrubby when we defend it, especially given how Grandmaster Sub-Zero was allowed to use this exact same tactic in the corner during the entirety of MKX without so much as a scintilla of protest from us.

If we keep defending this loop, our anti-Sub counterparts will complain loudly enough to get our character nerf-batted D'Vorah-style. This movie has been played twice already.

Perhaps in MKX Sub-Zero might have needed 50/50 loops to compete against the Piercings, the Hish-Qu-Tens, the Boneshapers/Necromancers, the MOSs/Mystics and Tempests - along with some other variations whose names I've happily forgotten now. However this is MK11 - Sub-Zero doesn't need that 50/50-vortex mess anymore.

SMH... do you realize that if you're always standing you can't get RE-standed right? Other characters have restands because they can launch you, do full combo damage and then restand you. Sub-Zero can open you up and then sacrifice that opportunity to do minimal damage and give you an opportunity to punish him next time for full combo damage. I don't even think Subbie should go for the loops outside of Ground Ice kustom variations (and even there, those can be avoided for a bar), he should capitalize when he opens you up.

Since the first week outrage, Subbie has been quickly dropping in everyone's tier lists and now is around mid tier because it's been proven this isn't a problem at all.

 

[CliffP]

Sub-Zero would have a re-stand no matter if it was +22, +12, -5 or whatever simply because he doesn't need to launch in order to combo. And yes, re-stands are indeed powerful in this game and are great to have no matter who the character is.

If the Sub is using B32 as the loop ender, it would only take 2 reps to deal the same damage that the opponent would punish with if they guessed right on the overhead. The opponent gets nothing for guessing correctly on the low, except their turn back - if our 6-frame D1 doesn't reach them first.

The issue at play is that NRS promised a departure from the MKX meta of constant 50/50 pressure in MK11 and for the most part, it lived up to that promise, with the exception of some of its top-tier characters. Sub-Zero completely deviates from this promise by getting partial/fully guaranteed 50/50 loops off his normals and strings without the requirement of resources. This provokes the ire of the rest of MK11's player base and makes us Sub-Zero advocates look shady and scrubby when we defend it, especially given how Grandmaster Sub-Zero was allowed to use this exact same tactic in the corner during the entirety of MKX without so much as a scintilla of protest from us.

If we keep defending this loop, our anti-Sub counterparts will complain loudly enough to get our character nerf-batted D'Vorah-style. This movie has been played twice already.

Perhaps in MKX Sub-Zero might have needed 50/50 loops to compete against the Piercings, the Hish-Qu-Tens, the Boneshapers/Necromancers, the MOSs/Mystics and Tempests - along with some other variations whose names I've happily forgotten now. However this is MK11 - Sub-Zero doesn't need that 50/50-vortex mess anymore.

Okay but then give us a 9 frame mid if the idea is to take away the mix up off restand. Then he'd actually be a fucking terrifying character.

 

[mrapchem]

SMH... do you realize that if you're always standing you can't get RE-standed right? Other characters have restands because they can launch you, do full combo damage and then restand you. Sub-Zero can open you up and then sacrifice that opportunity to do minimal damage and give you an opportunity to punish him next time for full combo damage. I don't even think Subbie should go for the loops outside of Ground Ice kustom variations (and even there, those can be avoided for a bar), he should capitalize when he opens you up.

Since the first week outrage, Subbie has been quickly dropping in everyone's tier lists and now is around mid tier because it's been proven this isn't a problem at all.

You aren't wrong about anything you said, however as you have clearly seen, a vast multitude of players - primarily online and scrubby, but not always - are still getting hit by what they deem as an 'un-reactable overhead'. They have a massive issue with the idea of possibly not getting to play the game if they can't guess right between oh/low in Sub's vortex game. In the offline competitive world a.k.a. the real game, yes, Sub-Zero did drop in some tier lists. In the online world - where most of MK11's player base is - Sub-Zero is considered a broken, vortexing mix-up monster who desperately needs a nerf.

This player-base is loudly crying for our darling Sub to get that NRS nerf-bat, and they've had their prayers answered in MK9 and in MKX before. In my estimation, if we don't get ahead of this and give the anti-Sub crowd the most minimal changes to our boy so that they won't get vortexed anymore online, it will be us crying after a future patch.

 

[mrapchem]

Okay but then give us a 9 frame mid if the idea is to take away the mix up off restand. Then he'd actually be a fucking terrifying character.

I'd be cool with that - pun intended.

 

[RM Ree]

Sub-Zero would have a re-stand no matter if it was +22, +12, -5 or whatever simply because he doesn't need to launch in order to combo. And yes, re-stands are indeed powerful in this game and are great to have no matter who the character is.

If the Sub is using B32 as the loop ender, it would only take 2 reps to deal the same damage that the opponent would punish with if they guessed right on the overhead. The opponent gets nothing for guessing correctly on the low, except their turn back - if our 6-frame D1 doesn't reach them first.

The issue at play is that NRS promised a departure from the MKX meta of constant 50/50 pressure in MK11 and for the most part, it lived up to that promise, with the exception of some of its top-tier characters. Sub-Zero completely deviates from this promise by getting partial/fully guaranteed 50/50 loops off his normals and strings without the requirement of resources. This provokes the ire of the rest of MK11's player base and makes us Sub-Zero advocates look shady and scrubby when we defend it, especially given how Grandmaster Sub-Zero was allowed to use this exact same tactic in the corner during the entirety of MKX without so much as a scintilla of protest from us.

If we keep defending this loop, our anti-Sub counterparts will complain loudly enough to get our character nerf-batted D'Vorah-style. This movie has been played twice already.

Perhaps in MKX Sub-Zero might have needed 50/50 loops to compete against the Piercings, the Hish-Qu-Tens, the Boneshapers/Necromancers, the MOSs/Mystics and Tempests - along with some other variations whose names I've happily forgotten now. However this is MK11 - Sub-Zero doesn't need that 50/50-vortex mess anymore.

NRS also promised a Kombat Kast/ reveal today

 

[mrapchem]

NRS also promised a Kombat Kast/ reveal today

Was that really NRS though? I thought it was a rumor that appeared to be corroborated by GameSpot who then dropped the ball.

EDIT: It was from NRS, but they never said anything about a Kombat Kast - just a reveal.