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Subzero General Discussion Thread

mrapchem

Noob
I don't know how else to explain that Sub Zero's amplified ice balls eat through projectiles. You can't trade with him or fight him from range. On top of that, he still has the option to slide under yours. I didn't say I was bad against Scrub Zero either, though I have lost against him. I simply mentioned how his overhead is almost impossible to block online. Blind assumptions.
"If you have a different opinion, state facts about broken mechanics, or explain what you're struggling against, you're either a troll or you suck at the game."
This is usually the last argument that people use regardless of what game you're talking about.
You claim I watch more than I play. I rarely play KOTH in this game, because the matches take too long. Sub Zero is just one of those characters that people fall back on when they're losing a set. If they can't win with Geras, I can expect fight against Scorpion or Sub Zero, as my opponent is looking for a cheap and easy win. Because of this, I have a lot of experience against him.
You can add me on Xbox so we can play first to 3, then post the results here. I'm on right now. I promise not to use fatal blows, like Sub Zero players love doing.
If you're fighting against a Sub that has the ex-Iceball, perhaps you should change your strategy and avoid throwing projectiles. Or better yet, bait the Sub to slide/throw ex-IceBall by throwing out a normal that looks like the animation of your projectile from range. Not a particularly difficult thing to deal with honestly.

To your second point, stating that a mechanic is broken and then when people who play the character with said broken mechanic explain why it actually isn't broken and how to counter it, only to argue back-and-forth with them will get you labelled a troll or scrub, no matter who the character is, the 'broken mechanic', or what the fighting game is. Sub-Zero in his tournament variations has absolutely nothing that is remotely close to being broken. If he were, we would see him all over the tournament scene dominating every match, but that's not what's happening.

If you were earnestly seeking help dealing with Sub-Zero because you were struggling against him in a respectful and humble manner, you would get the help that you needed from myself and others with smiles on our faces. That's not what you did - you chose to spread misinformation, whine and draw erroneous conclusions about the character without even bothering to listen or test out what people have informed you about. Therefore, I and other Sub-Zero players returned fire back on you.

Instead of, "Sub-Zero is cheap because his overhead is unblockable and because I say so", a "I'm having a bit of trouble with Sub-Zero's overhead. It seems to be too fast to react to; any help would suffice" would have gotten you much further.

Even if you did have a dissenting opinion about Sub-Zero, if you were respectful of the character and the people that played him, and presented that opinion in an amicable way, you would have avoided people telling you that you suck at the game. You didn't do that either.

From our perspective, you're the horse that's been led to water numerous times, yet won't bother to drink.
 
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NRS should rework the online so that it's not as laggy and doesn't disconnect people every 12 or so games first before doing any character adjustments.


A third of the roster is worthless???? Just because people aren't playing them often online? That's some flawed logic right there. The reality is most of the roster is at least good, even most of the lower-tier kharacters. We just saw a Johnny Cage pretty konvincingly beat SonicFox's Erron Black.

As for Sub's overhead, we already know that it's harder to block online than offline - that isn't even news. However, that doesn't mean that the overhead itself needs to be changed - it's already slow as it is. And again, if you're not at point-blank range of Sub-Zero, all his oh/low options are fully unsafe beyond sweep distance.

As for how to learn in a fighting game, if you're not using the lab, you're doing a grave disservice to yourself. Fighting against people online only teaches you peoples' scrubby tactics. It does not teach you about frame data, gaps, optimal punishes from short/long range, anti-airs or your characters' movement/spacing options. Fighting online often gives a false impression of a kharacter's strengths and weaknesses because it serves to make some of them - like Sub-Zero - appear better than they actually are and others to appear worse.

What does need to change is the online konnection in this game because in its current state, it doesn't match MKX's netkode. Once that is fixed, you will find that everything that I and all the other Sub-Zero players have been saying about his overhead is exactly korrect; it is quite reactable, sometimes even predictable and always punishable once blocked.

It's too bad you play on Xbox - I'd love to give you even more reasons to detest Sub-Zero in a set.
if you lose to Johnny Cage, you're either not that good of a player, or you got completely outplayed in every aspect. Most of the time, the reason why people lose to him is because he barely gets used; they don't realize that all you have to do is block low and wait for a grab. Then mash d2s all day. I watched a video of a great Kano player called "Black Fellow" who used cybernetic and almost beat his opponent that used Scorpion in MKX. The same principle applies in both games; there's no reason why you should be struggling against unfinished/trash characters. Unless you really like a certain character like in my case, don't complain that you lost via handicapping yourself. Yes, a third of the roster need buffs. Sub Zero's overhead isn't retractable from crouching.
One thing I agree with, I should've gotten a PS4 instead. Xbox is a piece of shit and I wasted money again
 
If you're fighting against a Sub that has the ex-Iceball, perhaps you should change your strategy and avoid throwing projectiles. Or better yet, bait the Sub to slide/throw ex-IceBall by throwing out a normal that looks like the animation of your projectile from range. Not a particularly difficult thing to deal with honestly.

To your second point, stating that a mechanic is broken and then when people who play the character with said broken mechanic explain why it actually isn't broken and how to counter it, only to argue back-and-forth with them will get you labelled a troll or scrub, no matter who the character is, the 'broken mechanic', or what the fighting game is. Sub-Zero in his tournament variations has absolutely nothing that is remotely close to being broken. If he were, we would see him all over the tournament scene dominating every match, but that's not what's happening.

If you were earnestly seeking help dealing with Sub-Zero because you were struggling against him in a respectful and humble manner, you would get the help that you needed from myself and others with smiles on our faces. That's not what you did - you chose to spread misinformation, whine and draw erroneous conclusions about the character without even bothering to listen or test out what people have informed you about. Therefore, I and other Sub-Zero players returned fire back on you.

Instead of, "Sub-Zero is cheap because his overhead is unblockable and because I say so", a "I'm having a bit of trouble with Sub-Zero's overhead. It seems to be too fast to react to; any help would suffice" would have gotten you much further.

Even if you did have a dissenting opinion about Sub-Zero, if you were respectful of the character and the people that played him, and presented that opinion in an amicable way, you would have avoided people telling you that you suck at the game. You didn't do that either.

From our perspective, you're the horse that's been led to water numerous times, yet won't bother to drink.
I'm talking about what people say in general. I'm not saying Sub Zero is broken.
 

mrapchem

Noob
if you lose to Johnny Cage, you're either not that good of a player, or you got completely outplayed in every aspect. Most of the time, the reason why people lose to him is because he barely gets used; they don't realize that all you have to do is block low and wait for a grab. Then mash d2s all day. I watched a video of a great Kano player called "Black Fellow" who used cybernetic and almost beat his opponent that used Scorpion in MKX. The same principle applies in both games; there's no reason why you should be struggling against unfinished/trash characters. Unless you really like a certain character like in my case, don't complain that you lost via handicapping yourself. Yes, a third of the roster need buffs. Sub Zero's overhead isn't retractable from crouching.
One thing I agree with, I should've gotten a PS4 instead. Xbox is a piece of shit and I wasted money again
I wouldn't go as far as to say that only bad players lose to Johnny. Johnny has very real frame traps and good buttons, plus a good fireball. And he negates wakeups. His only issues stem from a bad set of KB requirements and hitbox issues. Once those are fixed, his tier position will immediately rise. He is a good character that doesn't get to enjoy the full MK11 experience with Krushing Blows.

And honestly, that third of the roster that you keep mentioning mostly needs better KBs and hitbox adjustments. Only the lowest of the low really need buffs, like D'Vorah, the Kahns, and Kano, and they probably need roughly three adjustments each. Everyone else is pretty damn good once you optimize them by way of kustom variations.

Once again, playing online gives a fake impression of reality - it makes Sub-Zero's reactable overhead unreactable. Especially this messed-up MK11 online. If you take Sub-Zero into practice and set the AI to randomly switch between doing the low string and the overhead string, you will find that you can indeed react to the overhead. However, playing online all but destroys that notion because of the added delay.

Also, you have to consider whether you're playing this game on a TV or a monitor. Playing on a TV is almost guaranteed to add input delay, which makes reactable things unreactable, unless you chose a TV specifically because it has low input delay.

One other thing, PS4s are getting pretty cheap with that PS5 right around the corner. You might want to make that switch, though that Xbox One controller is a damn nice pad!