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Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Sub-Zero's Ice Clone doesn't work properly

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Marvaz

come at me
@Tom Brady is right guys. At HIGH LEVEL play the clone cancels hurt sub bad. Basically giving the opponent a free combo. And now that we know the clone doesn't have a full hit box sub went from possibly 10th in the tier last to imo high bottom 10. If the clone dissaperaring on block is staying at least give sub a full clone hit box. One or the other. I see most of you guys posting don't even main sub and talking about"use the clone a different way".
 
Asking why other characters can do this and that and why subzero cannot is a flawed way to look at things. Yeah x character can use meter for frame advantage, but how is that comparable to using a bar to trap the opponent completely AND at the same time have frame advantage. Also we could go on and on about what subzero does have and others dont especially with grandmaster subzero. I kinda agree that the hitbox on clone should be adjusted to have a bigger hitbox than just the back of the clone, but not the entire clone. You cant make ice clone too good because subzero has the tools to put you in the corner very quickly unlike mk9 subzero.
 
Completely agree that the clone is broken and need fixing. I don't know if that has been adressed already but I've actually seen bugs even worse that those videos show. For example it already happened to me multiple times that a character was literaly standing inside a clone while doing a string or non-ex special. He was literaly standind in a damn clone like nobody's bussiness. I swear I wasnt blocking while this happened. This doesn't happen all the time and I haven't recorded it unfortunately, but it's clearly another sign that something is very wrong with certain hitboxes in that game and very strange things are happening.
Oh our belowed nrs...
 

BloodyNights

"My kunai will find it's mark."
NRS isn't known for having reliable visible hitboxes. Biggest example is projectiles. How many projectiles have you seen that you could have sworn you could jump over easily in any other fighter, but in NRS games you'll get hit almost every time.

Regardless back to subby-z, I'm hesitant to even give him a fix like this. Not because of how he struggles against top tiers, but because of how he dominates a good portion of the cast while barely trying.

Sure Sub-Zero cannot win by playing keep away alone, but he can put up an ice clone, shoot some iceballs, throw the clone, or shatter the clone, and quickly put up another one, and repeat the process until he has considerable amounts of meter. And can make throwing counter projectiles risky because of EX ice ball or a possible trade. Some characters simply do not have the tools to deal with this. Which is why I consider Sub-Zero to be one of the most unbalanced characters in the game.

And yes while I may not be an expert with the character, I have played him quite a bit, and he was actually my main character. Though I switched to Cryomancer because I didn't enjoy sitting behind the ice clone and letting it kill my opponent for me. Still not a fan of the style but it at least has some more thought behind it now. Due to people leveling up, and the going away on block nerf. And yes I do, do much better with Grandmaster.

But I'll say this, if they fix the clone not freezing when Sub-Zero blocks, which will allow Subby-Z to bully the cast who have trouble against it which is probably half. Then I suggest that they buff that half's options. For Example Kitana get's a measly 14% for a bar of meter if she gets the read, and it's highly unsafe if she doesn't. Sonya as retarded as her mix ups are gets hardly anything as well. Reptile hardly gets a punish, same for Kano, Cassie, Johnny, Liu Kang, you could throw Sub-Zero himself in there as well.

I know you are salty at the nerf, but Sub-Zero isn't what many would consider a "bad" character, in fact he is very good. People have pointed this out, that even without the clone "threat" he has excellent normals, and good mix ups. Both on the ground and in the air. His slide lets him zip under other zoners projectiles, and practically has no recovery when it whiffs. It's also a constant threat stuck in the back of players minds, just knowing that you could do a fast moving low, and while it's super punishable, it leaves them open to overheads. That frankly while is punishable is still tough to punish for a majority of the cast, or has extremely strict timing, which in the heat of a match would make it less likely to happen.

So yes, if they fix this, I'd like to see weaker characters also get more buffs, not just to deal with Sub-Zero but to deal with other top tier characters that you, yourself complain about and compare to Sub-Zero.
 

RVB

twitch.tv/rvblacktail
I kinda agree that the hitbox on clone should be adjusted to have a bigger hitbox than just the back of the clone, but not the entire clone. You cant make ice clone too good because subzero has the tools to put you in the corner very quickly unlike mk9 subzero.
It's posts like this that make me cringe so hard ,if people like you would have their way sub zero would only be able to do a single klone per match and EVEN that would be too much...
I've been maining Sub Zero and ONLY Sub Zero since MK4 and what is happening with the klone in MKX is just stupid and should be fixed ASAP.
The principle of the Klone is simple, you touch the bloody thing in any way, shape or form AND you get FROZEN and right now that is not working.
People coming in here and saying that the klone is fine as it is or it needs to be adjusted but only in a way to still not work properly are either too inept to understand a basic principle or they just want this to stay broken because they can't seem to get around it without this bug even though the variation system offers plenty of tools to do so.
Bottom line is the klone right now is more of a hindrance to Sub Zero, with pokes and Raiden's normal superman and other similar non enhanced moves just going through it rendering it useless.
#FixThisShit
 
It's posts like this that make me cringe so hard ,if people like you would have their way sub zero would only be able to do a single klone per match and EVEN that would be too much...
I've been maining Sub Zero and ONLY Sub Zero since MK4 and what is happening with the klone in MKX is just stupid and should be fixed ASAP.
The principle of the Klone is simple, you touch the bloody thing in any way, shape or form AND you get FROZEN and right now that is not working.
People coming in here and saying that the klone is fine as it is or it needs to be adjusted but only in a way to still not work properly are either too inept to understand a basic principle or they just want this to stay broken because they can't seem to get around it without this bug even though the variation system offers plenty of tools to do so.
Bottom line is the klone right now is more of a hindrance to Sub Zero, with pokes and Raiden's normal superman and other similar non enhanced moves just going through it rendering it useless.
#FixThisShit
k
 

RVB

twitch.tv/rvblacktail
Good god, stop.
What would you qualify something that isn't working properly, a well designed tool ?
Why? He loses health every time he throws out a clone and/or gets himself frozen and/or full comboed. Of course it's a hindrance.
Don't even bother Braindead these people don't care that right now you can't play a proper mind game because you're forced to back away from the klone when you get it out in close proximity to your opponent.
They don't care that this bug significantly hurts his corner game and it makes non EX moves go through it like it nobody's business... no,no,no.
I have to imagine that the trauma of not being able to armor on reaction or tele or any of the other ways to get through the klone makes such an impression on some people that they feel the need to say that Sub should be left with a broken klone.
OHWAIT... I forgot you guys want 40% every time you spend a bar, my apologies!
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
You misunderstood what I was saying -- and hung up to made the video about a different point than the one I explained.

What I'm talking is illustrated in the diagram that was posted.
Well now I am curious. What did you say that drove Tom to create a rant video about shit I didn't say?

Must have really got him going lol
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
I'll take this as sarcasm.
You should.
What would you qualify something that isn't working properly, a well designed tool ?

Don't even bother Braindead these people don't care that right now you can't play a proper mind game because you're forced to back away from the klone when you get it out in close proximity to your opponent.
They don't care that this bug significantly hurts his corner game and it makes non EX moves go through it like it nobody's business... no,no,no.
I have to imagine that the trauma of not being able to armor on reaction or tele or any of the other ways to get through the klone makes such an impression on some people that they feel the need to say that Sub should be left with a broken klone.
OHWAIT... I forgot you guys want 40% every time you spend a bar, my apologies!
Ice clone is not as scary as non-Sub-Zero mains think it is. In the tournaments we've seen so far a LOT of clone cancels go unpunished, and those punishes could really be big, and they are not even difficult to pull.

In the same time, ice clone is not as shitty as Sub-Zero mains currently make it to be. There's some downplaying going on at the moment.

It's somewhere in between.

However, I do think the active hitbox on that shit needs to be fixed. No one should be able to poke Sub-Zero through a clone. That's just wrong. I thought we will be done with that after MK9.
 

RVB

twitch.tv/rvblacktail
Ice clone is not as scary as non-Sub-Zero mains think it is. In the tournaments we've seen so far a LOT of clone cancels go unpunished, and those punishes could really be big, and they are not even difficult to pull.

In the same time, ice clone is not as shitty as Sub-Zero mains currently make it to be.

It's somewhere in between.

However, I do think the active hitbox on that shit needs to be fixed. No one should be able to poke Sub-Zero through a clone. That's just wrong. I thought we will be done with that after MK9.
Not trying to down play the klone or anything it's just that people coming in here telling me the klone is fine is just stupid and I know you agree with that.

And you're right it's somewhere in between when it comes down to the functionality of the klone if you get it out at medium distance or cross screen from opponent the klone behaves admirably you can use it to shield yourself from projectiles, try to get a favorable trade, I don't need to tell a fellow SZ main of this stuff just pointing it out for other people.

Problems start to show when you play characters that have teleports if you want to have an easy life one would just move in the klone and on reaction dash away to catch the tele with the klone THAT DOES NOT WORK because of the collision bug Scorpion,Lao etc can just tele at ease and not worry about getting caught.Now some might say well why don't you move ahead of the klone and that way if you back dash you not gonna get hit, THAT will make my intention clear as daylight and just foil any mind game I got going on by sitting in the klone. GG

When you Klone in close proximity that's when the shit hits the fan... if you want to advance a bit to be in range for a 50/50 you can't because all your opponent has to do is just poke you without any repercussion and NOW YOU are in 50/50 land.GG
IF you back away from the klone well you can b2 or shatter, throwing the clone is not an option in close proximity SO you get chip damage and a potential punish from the opponent.GG
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I'll take this as sarcasm.
im really tired of your ill informed replies all the damn time about subzero

its obvious to anyone with a brain that subzeros clone is a hindrance, when hes out and you see how bad that thing is you get flashbacks of PTSD from mk9 subzero and your brain starts malfunctioning, causing you to drop at least to C- tier because of pliceybro effect
 
NRS isn't known for having reliable visible hitboxes. Biggest example is projectiles. How many projectiles have you seen that you could have sworn you could jump over easily in any other fighter, but in NRS games you'll get hit almost every time.

Regardless back to subby-z, I'm hesitant to even give him a fix like this. Not because of how he struggles against top tiers, but because of how he dominates a good portion of the cast while barely trying.

Sure Sub-Zero cannot win by playing keep away alone, but he can put up an ice clone, shoot some iceballs, throw the clone, or shatter the clone, and quickly put up another one, and repeat the process until he has considerable amounts of meter. And can make throwing counter projectiles risky because of EX ice ball or a possible trade. Some characters simply do not have the tools to deal with this. Which is why I consider Sub-Zero to be one of the most unbalanced characters in the game.

And yes while I may not be an expert with the character, I have played him quite a bit, and he was actually my main character. Though I switched to Cryomancer because I didn't enjoy sitting behind the ice clone and letting it kill my opponent for me. Still not a fan of the style but it at least has some more thought behind it now. Due to people leveling up, and the going away on block nerf. And yes I do, do much better with Grandmaster.

But I'll say this, if they fix the clone not freezing when Sub-Zero blocks, which will allow Subby-Z to bully the cast who have trouble against it which is probably half. Then I suggest that they buff that half's options. For Example Kitana get's a measly 14% for a bar of meter if she gets the read, and it's highly unsafe if she doesn't. Sonya as retarded as her mix ups are gets hardly anything as well. Reptile hardly gets a punish, same for Kano, Cassie, Johnny, Liu Kang, you could throw Sub-Zero himself in there as well.

I know you are salty at the nerf, but Sub-Zero isn't what many would consider a "bad" character, in fact he is very good. People have pointed this out, that even without the clone "threat" he has excellent normals, and good mix ups. Both on the ground and in the air. His slide lets him zip under other zoners projectiles, and practically has no recovery when it whiffs. It's also a constant threat stuck in the back of players minds, just knowing that you could do a fast moving low, and while it's super punishable, it leaves them open to overheads. That frankly while is punishable is still tough to punish for a majority of the cast, or has extremely strict timing, which in the heat of a match would make it less likely to happen.

So yes, if they fix this, I'd like to see weaker characters also get more buffs, not just to deal with Sub-Zero but to deal with other top tier characters that you, yourself complain about and compare to Sub-Zero.
1. As it stands, SZ wins very few mu's. Most of his mu's are even or losing mu's. That dooesnt exactly scream "he dominates a good portion of the cast while barely trying".

2. The clone doesnt kill anyone for you. In fact, you cannot get far by doing "put up an ice clone, shoot some iceballs, throw the clone, or shatter the clone, and quickly put up another one, and repeat the process until he has considerable amounts of meter". That fact that you see the clone as something "kills opponents for me" shows that you dont understand the game at higher levels of play.

3. People believe that a "measly 14% for a bar of meter" isnt good enough. NOPE.. they want 35-40% as a punish every time SZ clones. Did you ever consider that Liu Kang's armor punish is SAFE so he doesnt get punished even is SZ use a bar for an ex clone bait? How about Kano using ex knife to SAFELY punish clone cancel and still get a combo (something you did not mention). Did you mention how Johnny punishes 2 with an ex nutpunch for a full combo? No. just that all he gets is a measly shadow kick for punishing a clone cancel. How about Cassie that punishes cone cancels with instant air shots and punishes SZ's B33 low option with a flip kick? Let that out too..

Just look at how you basically described Johnny Cage - As a character that gets hardly any punishment and gets bullied all day, poor Johnny. The reality is he punishes all clone cancels with a knock down that pushes SZ a decent ways from the corner which gets you PLENTY of space. He also punishes SZ's overhead with a launcher with or without clone in the way. Basically SZ's only safe option is his B33 low yet you paint a picture of Johnny Cage listed in a group where you basically say has very few options.

Sure you can say ... "but.. but.. but.. you can use ex clone and bait the shadow kick". Sure I can.. but let me remind you that then SZ has no meter to combo after F42, B33, F33, etc.. So now his damage has to suffer overall, all so he can MAYBE bait out something for a WHOPPING PUNISH OF 27%!!

4. You are rating SZ's tools on paper, basically saying "in theory he has..." which doesnt work outside the realm of on paper. SZ in MK9 was also good in theory. He had safe strings that he could safely cancel into clone on block and at the same time hit confirm into ice blast on hit. He has a top 2 (if not the best) X-Ray in the game. He had fast normals with GREAT recovery on block and great range for footsies, could win trades with Ice blast, etc.. His clone could still shut down footsies and he could even clone in the air. Yet, the reality was he was garbage.

Players like you are the reason why SZ is in this talk of "yup.. he is top 3/5/10" when in reality the highest he is at this point is around 13th. Again.. 13th and this is before the last 2 DLC's and before other characters get buffed. He could end up in the 15/18/20 spot which doesnt scream anything besides middle of the mid tier at best.
 
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BloodyNights

"My kunai will find it's mark."
As it stands, SZ wins very few mu's. Most of his mu's are even or losing mu's. That dooesnt exactly scream "he dominates a good portion of the cast while barely trying".
Mind going over the characters you feel he loses to, and who he beats, it might help me get into your mind set a bit more. Playing our local Sub-Zero player Semi Evil Ryu, I have a tough time fighting him with a select portion of the cast, and it feels so one sided, unless I have a definitive way to punish the ice clone.
 

coolwhip

Noob
1. As it stands, SZ wins very few mu's. Most of his mu's are even or losing mu's. That dooesnt exactly scream "he dominates a good portion of the cast while barely trying".

2. The clone doesnt kill anyone for you. In fact, you cannot get far by doing "put up an ice clone, shoot some iceballs, throw the clone, or shatter the clone, and quickly put up another one, and repeat the process until he has considerable amounts of meter". That fact that you see the clone as something "kills opponents for me" shows that you dont understand the game at higher levels of play.

3. People believe that a "measly 14% for a bar of meter" isnt good enough. NOPE.. they want 35-40% as a punish every time SZ clones. Did you ever consider that Liu Kang's armor punish is SAFE so he doesnt get punished even is SZ use a bar for an ex clone bait? How about Kano using ex knife to SAFELY punish clone cancel and still get a combo (something you did not mention). Did you mention how Johnny punishes 2 with an ex nutpunch for a full combo? No. just that all he gets is a measly shadow kick for punishing a clone cancel. How about Cassie that punishes cone cancels with instant air shots and punishes SZ's B33 low option with a flip kick? Let that out too..

Just look at how you basically described Johnny Cage - As a character that gets hardly any punishment and gets bullied all day, poor Johnny. The reality is he punishes all clone cancels with a knock down that pushes SZ a decent ways from the corner which gets you PLENTY of space. He also punishes SZ's overhead with a launcher with or without clone in the way. Basically SZ's only safe option is his B33 low yet you paint a picture of Johnny Cage listed in a group where you basically say has very few options.

Sure you can say ... "but.. but.. but.. you can use ex clone and bait the shadow kick". Sure I can.. but let me remind you that then SZ has no meter to combo after F42, B33, F33, etc.. So now his damage has to suffer overall, all so he can MAYBE bait out something for a WHOPPING PUNISH OF 27%!!

4. You are rating SZ's tools on paper, basically saying "in theory he has..." which doesnt work outside the realm of on paper. SZ in MK9 was also good in theory. He had safe strings that he could safely cancel into clone on block and at the same time hit confirm into ice blast on hit. He has a top 2 (if not the best) X-Ray in the game. He had fast normals with GREAT recovery on block and great range for footsies, could win trades with Ice blast, etc.. His clone could still shut down footsies and he could even clone in the air. Yet, the reality was he was garbage.

Players like you are the reason why SZ is in this talk of "yup.. he is top 3/5/10" when in reality the highest he is at this point is around 13th. Again.. 13th and this is before the last 2 DLC's and before other characters get buffed. He could end up in the 15/18/20 spot which doesnt scream anything besides middle of the mid tier at best.
This is embarrassing. Downplaying and agendas have went so far as to dropping the characters 7 hypothetical spots due to hypothetical tier placements of upcoming DLC's and hypothetical patches.
 

BloodyNights

"My kunai will find it's mark."
This is embarrassing. Downplaying and agendas have went so far as to dropping the characters 7 hypothetical spots due to hypothetical tier placements of upcoming DLC's and hypothetical patches.
I do feel the downplay is pretty unreal a lot of the times in his own posts, he will mention options the opponent has, while also mentioning options that Sub-Zero has that counters that same exact option. He then says people want 35-40% punishes, and then complains about his own punishes doing 27% for correctly baiting.
 
This is embarrassing. Downplaying and agendas have went so far as to dropping the characters 7 hypothetical spots due to hypothetical tier placements of upcoming DLC's and hypothetical patches.
Whats embarrassing is you implying that he is in fact top 10 when this is completely false. To most people, the clone is just plain annoying and they just want it removed or functioning as little as possible.
 
Mind going over the characters you feel he loses to, and who he beats, it might help me get into your mind set a bit more. Playing our local Sub-Zero player Semi Evil Ryu, I have a tough time fighting him with a select portion of the cast, and it feels so one sided, unless I have a definitive way to punish the ice clone.
So.. fact is that it is very possible that YOU have the hard time and not the character(s)....
 
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BloodyNights

"My kunai will find it's mark."
So.. fact is that it is very possible that YOU have the hard time and not the character(s)....
Hey Tom, that's why I asked you who you thought was good or bad against Sub-Zero, my experience could be different from yours. That logic can be applied to anyone playing, including you. Which is why I wanted your opinion.
 
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