Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Sub-Zero's Ice Clone doesn't work properly

[Bryck Walle]

Exactly, great observation DR. Otherwise you could just keep popping clones in the corner and never need to block, the opponent will be trapped. I for one am grateful I can sometimes get through the clone with a poke. Blood God Kotal Kahn has no moves that could deal with a clone other than just wait it out.

The move is working as intended, just adapt and deal with it

The move is obviously not working as intended. So because you are getting bodied in a specific variation, you think he's not allowed to have a properly working character? Your problem is the exact reason there are VARIATIONS on characters now. If you're having trouble with one variation, you can switch to get a better hand on the match up. If your BLOOD GOD isn't working, maybe try WAR GOD or SUN GOD. They both have EX moves that go right through it. Stop trying to defend something that OBVIOUSLY isn't working correctly and learn to fight it.

Side note. Tom Brady has been around the tournament scene for YEARS. He's ALWAYS the first guy to tell people to "shut up and adapt". If he didn't feel it was an engine issue, he wouldn't have posted it. While I respect your opinion because well.... everyone has one, I find it extremely hard to respect you as an MK player when you have noob under your name. It shows you haven't been around TYM for very long and that's fine. But don't tell a tournament player who has been playing these games for literal years he needs to "stop whining and adapt". Show a little maturity.

 

[RiBBz22]

No, if that were the case then it would freeze them before they contacted the clone.

What if the hitbox extended further than the hurtbox?

 

[Tom Brady]

Sine the B12~clone thread is blown up as expected, i see NO reason why the clone should not have its proper collision.

 

[Tom Brady]

Ok.. lets get this rolling again so we can get the issue fixed. The clone already has several safe guards in place. I do not believe its unreasonable to believe that you should freeze for touching the clone. That's what i'ts there for!!

 

[BloodyNights]

 

[DoctorSexual]

I've been doing alot of lab work trying to figure this out and my opinion has changed. I support a fix for this. After messing around with this Ive have lost alot of in match respect for the clone which from what I understand is key for Sub Meta game.

 

[BloodyNights]

I propose a change. I say fix it's hitbox to cover the clone, don't make it shatter on block, and even give it's original recovery back. But don't let it eat projectiles.

 

[Tokiwartoothxdk]

the clones hitbox should be the entirety of the clone itself

 

[ShotgunInsanity]

This game desperately needs a hitbox viewer like KI so we can see stupid bugs like this.

 

[RM_Gamer]

ive seen the same issue playing against my friend's sub with kang. When clone is active and I block a b2, kang's f44 goes right through clone and doesnt freeze me. This only happens when im a bit late to punish b2. Sub blocks my f44 and I just go through the clone lol

 

[Tom Brady]

Disproving @TakeAChance

 

[Big Pampering]

One does not simply disprove takeachance

 

[UsedForGlue]

I honestly think GM needs the klone hit box fixed, but more importantly, the other variations need seriously looked at.

Unbreakable costs a bar of meter to reduce his damage, while Kotal gets the equivalent of the MB aura for totally free, and his damage is terrible in unbreakable so its not like you can truly best someone for damage, while the parry gets you blown up for using it on a projectile.
Lets not forget that Cryomancer's normal hammer is useless, his d2 is sooooo slow that the new animation isn't even justified, and his main reason for the variation - Cold Blooded, it puts him in trouble against half the cast just for finishing a combo with it...

Apart from GM needed a F42 MB Klone advantage, I'm holding out for the NRS gods to see the light, and fix what is almost a good character.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

I don't understand why there are even debates in this thread (I know the majority agree, but still). As Tom said, the klone was clearly never really made to go away on block. NRS have implemented a change to the mechanics of the klone and a bug has surfaced because of it. A simple mistake that should be fixed, end of.

 

[TakeAChance]

@Tom Brady

If you look a little further in the thread you can see that the initial theory was already disproven. Look at my hitbox theory (graphic included). I already knew if sub didn't block it would still go through.

Great breakdown tho, but nothing that wasn't already sorted out.

Also, I never once mentioned anything "pre-patch" not sure where that came from at all :S

My theory (and please go back and look) is that Sub Zero's hitbox and the clones hitbox are overlapping. That's why when sub backs up the opponent gets frozen, but when he is hiding next to the clone it trades with subs hitbox which overrides the clone.

That's why I ALSO said (and please go back and check it out for proof) that The hitbox is on the back of the clone (I drew it) and you can test it by looking at where Erron Blacks fist is after poking with a d1.

I am almost certain that if you go back and actually read what I was saying you would understand.

Once again, I never said ANYTHING about pre-patch. Not sure where that narrative has come from.

Also, I am damn well no means a Sub Zero expert. I was just generally curious as to why it wasn't working so I labbed it and tried to figure out why.

If you need me to clarify this further, contact me on Skype. I just logged on for the first time in ages just so I could explain this to you and so we can both better understand where we are coming from.

Once again, I just want to reiterate...

1)I never mentioned ANYTHING about pre-patch at all. I have no idea where this came from.
2) Half the content in this video that you are trying to "disprove" was not ANYTHING that I was advocating
3) If you need me to further elaborate what I am saying I have no problem doing so, and I also have said in this thread that it's weird and dumb.
4) NEVER EVER EVER EVER said I was an advocate for sub-zero, I was intrigued, and went into the lab to see if I could figure out why. I don't think this is harmful behavior for this community.

 

[Fattius]

Disproving @TakeAChance

Stay based Brady I love your work.

 

[Tom Brady]

@Tom Brady

If you look a little further in the thread you can see that the initial theory was already disproven. Look at my hitbox theory (graphic included). I already knew if sub didn't block it would still go through.

Great breakdown tho, but nothing that wasn't already sorted out.

Also, I never once mentioned anything "pre-patch" not sure where that came from at all :S

My theory (and please go back and look) is that Sub Zero's hitbox and the clones hitbox are overlapping. That's why when sub backs up the opponent gets frozen, but when he is hiding next to the clone it trades with subs hitbox which overrides the clone.

That's why I ALSO said (and please go back and check it out for proof) that The hitbox is on the back of the clone (I drew it) and you can test it by looking at where Erron Blacks fist is after poking with a d1.

I am almost certain that if you go back and actually read what I was saying you would understand.

Once again, I never said ANYTHING about pre-patch. Not sure where that narrative has come from.

Also, I am damn well no means a Sub Zero expert. I was just generally curious as to why it wasn't working so I labbed it and tried to figure out why.

If you need me to clarify this further, contact me on Skype. I just logged on for the first time in ages just so I could explain this to you and so we can both better understand where we are coming from.

Once again, I just want to reiterate...

1)I never mentioned ANYTHING about pre-patch at all. I have no idea where this came from.
2) Half the content in this video that you are trying to "disprove" was not ANYTHING that I was advocating
3) If you need me to further elaborate what I am saying I have no problem doing so, and I also have said in this thread that it's weird and dumb.
4) NEVER EVER EVER EVER said I was an advocate for sub-zero, I was intrigued, and went into the lab to see if I could figure out why. I don't think this is harmful behavior for this community.

It was actually Crimson Shadow who told me you disproved it. Sorry man, i had it wrong then

 

[Wemfs]

One does not simply disprove takeachance

You're missing the LOTR meme. ;p

 

[TakeAChance]

It was actually Crimson Shadow who told me you disproved it. Sorry man, i had it wrong then

That's fine. I can understand if that was the impression you were given, but you can go back and read and see that was not the case.

 

[Tom Brady]

I honestly think GM needs the klone hit box fixed, but more importantly, the other variations need seriously looked at.

Unbreakable costs a bar of meter to reduce his damage, while Kotal gets the equivalent of the MB aura for totally free, and his damage is terrible in unbreakable so its not like you can truly best someone for damage, while the parry gets you blown up for using it on a projectile.
Lets not forget that Cryomancer's normal hammer is useless, his d2 is sooooo slow that the new animation isn't even justified, and his main reason for the variation - Cold Blooded, it puts him in trouble against half the cast just for finishing a combo with it...

Apart from GM needed a F42 MB Klone advantage, I'm holding out for the NRS gods to see the light, and fix what is almost a good character.

Unbreakable's damage is low, takes a bar to reduce damage, and is missing the armor launcher. Cryomancer normal hammer is completely worthless, the uppercut is to slow to be a consistent anti-air, and the Cold Blooded string needs to be advantage on hit.

I agree that GM needs F42~ex clone to be adv and keep in mind that several characters use meter for adv. Shinnok, KL, Erron Black, Quan Chi, etc but not SZ. Nope, SZ has to use the bar and still block while the clone again goes away. But the real issue is the the clone's collision was clearly designed for a clone that does not go away on block. The collision needs fixing... I dont understand how anyone can argue that the clone should not freeze you of you attack it with a punch or kick.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

@Tom BradyMy theory (and please go back and look) is that Sub Zero's hitbox and the clones hitbox are overlapping. That's why when sub backs up the opponent gets frozen, but when he is hiding next to the clone it trades with subs hitbox which overrides the clone.

This is exactly what I was thinking based on seeing the vids and experience against a very solid Sub player. Any time he ventures into the hitbox of the clone, you can exploit that and hit him/force a block, whereas if he positions himself well enough, he can play around that dynamic and rely on different options. It's honestly a very well balanced dynamic considering all of the other applications that clone has in other options.
Tom not even reading your post or watching your video and then trying to blow you up based on hearsay from someone else is exactly what's wrong with this community and something that he is constantly complaining about. Really lame.
It's hard to say if clone should or shouldn't function like this, but I don't think it's unreasonable by any means that it functions like this. It is, after all, a zoning tool at it's core, so perhaps trying to fight inside of it's hitbox isn't the purpose that NRS had intended for it. Or maybe it is. Personally, I think this dynamic is fine for it and forces a more read-based neutral/clone setplay environment that is a lot more interesting than you getting 2-3 free 50/50s on someone when they are cloned in the corner and unable to counterpoke after a successful block.

 

[Tom Brady]

This is exactly what I was thinking based on seeing the vids and experience against a very solid Sub player. Any time he ventures into the hitbox of the clone, you can exploit that and hit him/force a block, whereas if he positions himself well enough, he can play around that dynamic and rely on different options. It's honestly a very well balanced dynamic considering all of the other applications that clone has in other options.
Tom not even reading your post or watching your video and then trying to blow you up based on hearsay from someone else is exactly what's wrong with this community and something that he is constantly complaining about. Really lame.
It's hard to say if clone should or shouldn't function like this, but I don't think it's unreasonable by any means that it functions like this. It is, after all, a zoning tool at it's core, so perhaps trying to fight inside of it's hitbox isn't the purpose that NRS had intended for it. Or maybe it is. Personally, I think this dynamic is fine for it and forces a more read-based neutral/clone setplay environment that is a lot more interesting than you getting 2-3 free 50/50s on someone when they are cloned in the corner and unable to counterpoke after a successful block.

Thats where you're wrong. It is NOT a zoning tool. SZ cannot win by hiding behind the clone. And yu do not get any FREE 50/50s after the clone trap. Also.. B2 is punished by a majority of the cast on block clone or no clone in the way so you dont get multiple 50/50 checks.

Literally everything you think you know about the characters trapping is wrong. SZ needs the clone to freeze people who attack it, not being able to do so seriously hurts his ability to bait.

 

[B W1zZ]

Sub Zero is probably one of the most herpaderp characters in this game, just so happens kenshi got buffed to herpaderp status and sz cant herpaderp vs kenshi properly. SZ and Kenshi both need nerfs.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

It was actually Crimson Shadow who told me you disproved it. Sorry man, i had it wrong then

You misunderstood what I was saying -- and hung up to made the video about a different point than the one I explained.

What I'm talking is illustrated in the diagram that was posted.

 

[-Deadman-]

This needs hotfixed asap. With clone not working as intended, there's honestly no reason to use GM Sub until something is done.
(Meanwhile, Cryomancer and Unbreakable Subs are having the best day ever.)