Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Sub-Zero's Ice Clone doesn't work properly

[I GOT HANDS]

Im like 99% sure now that being able to poke through is an intended effect. Take a look at this. Im using Kotal here and my D4 hits. However my B4 gets frozen. Same exact animation for both moves, so you must assume same hitbox? D4 is a poke whereas B4 is a hard knockdown.

The fact that 2 things with the same animation, from the exact same character, have two different outcomes, would suggest to me that the Clone is seriously bugged. Not quite sure how you equate this with "working as intended"

 

[kivatt]

This might be me or just not real but as Scorpion I can break his Ice Klone by walking into it and blocking at the right now.

 

[Tom Brady]

Your pokes prevent sz from even doing B2,B33, or throw. It completely removes his ability to even try a mix up

 

[DoctorSexual]

The fact that 2 things with the same animation, from the exact same character, have two different outcomes, would suggest to me that the Clone is seriously bugged. Not quite sure how you equate this with "working as intended"

What if NRS put a mechanic in place where once a move is over a certain damage threshold it gets frozen. In order to keep characters from just blowing up the clone with their strongest move? Or is that giving NRS too much credit here?

 

[Tom Brady]

Also... Clone cannot be looped for eternal lockdown. Once the clone goes away SZ cannot re- clone right away. You are free to attack.

 

[TakeAChance]

I actually think I can explain this.

It has to do with your blocking hitbox.

When a character is blocking, it's like a giant rectangle encompassing the character. It doesn't match the outline of the character, it's like a hitbox. Its just a giant box around the character.

What's happening here is that the "block box" is actually overlapping with the Clones "freeze box". Like Tom said, the game is registering the block and the freeze at the same time and since it's programmed to negate the clone on block, the block is nullifying the clones freeze.

Basically, the only way to really fix this would be to extend the freeze box of the clone, which could open up a whole new can of worms, or reduce the size of the "block box".

An easy way to test this theory would be to record the same setup by take a very small step backwards. IF that freezes the poke, then we know that's exactly what is happening.

 

[-narshkajke-]

What if NRS put a mechanic in place where once a move is over a certain damage threshold it gets frozen. In order to keep characters from just blowing up the clone with their strongest move? Or is that giving NRS too much credit here?

the logic of clone is simple, you touch it you get frozen, there's no mechanic like that as far as I know, but if you can show a video proving that it'll definitely show some people that it is the way clone intended.
the fact that people can bypass the clone to touch sub is not the same as neutral crouch where the fireball passing above you.

 

[DoctorSexual]

Your pokes prevent sz from even doing B2,B33, or throw. It completely removes his ability to even try a mix up

What does this have to do with the 2 moves having different results in that particular situation? Not being a smartass, just trying to learn and understand this game system.

 

[Jynks]

I actually think I can explain this.

It has to do with your blocking hitbox.

When a character is blocking, it's like a giant rectangle encompassing the character. It doesn't match the outline of the character, it's like a hitbox. Its just a giant box around the character.

What's happening here is that the "block box" is actually overlapping with the Clones "freeze box". Like Tom said, the game is registering the block and the freeze at the same time and since it's programmed to negate the clone on block, the block is nullifying the clones freeze.

Basically, the only way to really fix this would be to extend the freeze box of the clone, which could open up a whole new can of worms, or reduce the size of the "block box".

An easy way to test this theory would be to record the same setup by take a very small step backwards. IF that freezes the poke, then we know that's exactly what is happening.

or just don't block when they poke when you test... problem here is that if they armour out, the the 1 point of armour absorbs the frezze right? so you have to block?

 

[TakeAChance]

or just don't block when they poke when you test... problem here is that if they armour out, the the 1 point of armour absorbs the frezze right? so you have to block?

I'm not at my Xbox at the moment but I am fairly confident that in this exact same setup, the opponent would get frozen if you do not block.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I actually think I can explain this.

It has to do with your blocking hitbox.

When a character is blocking, it's like a giant rectangle encompassing the character. It doesn't match the outline of the character, it's like a hitbox. Its just a giant box around the character.

What's happening here is that the "block box" is actually overlapping with the Clones "freeze box". Like Tom said, the game is registering the block and the freeze at the same time and since it's programmed to negate the clone on block, the block is nullifying the clones freeze.

Basically, the only way to really fix this would be to extend the freeze box of the clone, which could open up a whole new can of worms, or reduce the size of the "block box".

An easy way to test this theory would be to record the same setup by take a very small step backwards. IF that freezes the poke, then we know that's exactly what is happening.

It happens when you don't block though as well

 

[kivatt]

Ice this supposed to happen with his Ice Klone?
Because I honestly don't know

If so can someone explain why?

 

[Metzos]

@Tom Brady. Question regarding the 3:50 section of the video. What happens if you back walk a bit after b2 on block? Wont EB get frozen by the clone?

 

[Metzos]

Ice this supposed to happen with his Ice Klone?
Because I honestly don't know

If so can someone explain why?

Yeah this happened during MK9 as well. IIRC SZ has massive block advantage if that happens.

 

[Tom Brady]

@Tom Brady. Question regarding the 3:50 section of the video. What happens if you back walk a bit after b2 on block? Wont EB get frozen by the clone?

why would anyone attack if i walk back? there is no threat of being mixed up. The baiting aspect is gone unless clone gets fixed.

 

[TakeAChance]

It happens when you don't block though as well

Ok, I was intrigued enough to go to the lab and do a quick video.

The clones hitbox is literally on the farthest area back of the clone itself. In this case, F4~Clone puts sub zeros elbow as the farthest area back of the clone. That's where the hitbox of the clone lies.

Therefore, in this same setup, when Sub Zero is NOT BLOCKING (extending his own block box) an opponent can tag sub zero with a standing jab, or a d1 because sub zeros hit box (torso area) is actually ahead of the elbow of the clone.

HOWEVER, if sub zero is not blocking d3's and d4's will go through the strip of the clone before reaching sub zero and produce a freeze.
*Video will be up in a second*

 

[SEV]

Im like 99% sure now that being able to poke through is an intended effect. Take a look at this. Im using Kotal here and my D4 hits. However my B4 gets frozen. Same exact animation for both moves, so you must assume same hitbox? D4 is a poke whereas B4 is a hard knockdown.

Stance of the clones were different on each attempt while Kahn's leg swept from the foreground side of the screen both times on the video in the post I'm commenting on.

The first time, the ice clone's extended leg was toward the background side of the screen while Kahn's leg come from the foreground side of the screen avoiding that leg entirely, and Kahn's leg isn't fully extended while on the same horizontal of the plane that clone's back leg is on, avoiding that leg as well, and then collides with Sub's right leg. The second time, the ice clone's extended leg was toward the foreground side of the screen, which Kahn's leg collided with as it was also coming from the foreground side of the screen. Watch the video on youtube at .25x speed and see what I'm talking about.

It looks like the game has 3D hit/hurtboxes so if the 3D attack animations don't cause the model's hurtbox to collide with the hitbox of the ice clone's 3D model then it will "go through the clone" because a collision never occurred. And since we can't see the models from another angle, we can't see that the models don't collide; the attacks that don't collide with the clone probably go between the legs, to either side the head, or around the abdomen because he has a slender profile when he twists to the side while he jumps back to create the ice clone.

So if this is an unintended result of the games hit/hurtbox mechanics, they can increase the width of the ice clone's hitbox, creating a phantom hitbox that will act like a wall along that horizontal which will fix it; however, if it's by design then, unfortunately, it's just something that Subs will have to deal with.

 

[DoctorSexual]

Stance of the clone was different on each attempt while Kahn's leg swept from screen side both times on the video in the post I'm commenting on.

The first time, the ice clone's extended leg was toward the background side of the screen while Kahn's leg come from the foreground side of the screen avoiding that leg entirely, and Kahn's leg isn't fully extended while on the same horizontal of the plane that clone's leg is on, avoiding that leg as well, then collides with Sub's right leg. The second time, the ice clone's extended leg was toward the foreground side of the screen, which Kahn's leg collided with as it was also coming from the foreground side of the screen. Watch the video on youtube at .25x speed and see what I'm talking about.

Confirmed, the game has 3D hit/hurtboxes so if the 3D attack animations don't cause the model's hurtbox to collide with the hitbox of the ice clone's 3D model then it will "go through the attack" because the collision never occurred. And since we can't see the models from another angle, we can't see that the models don't collide; they probably go between the legs, to either side the head, or around the abdomen because he has a slender profile when he twists to the side while he jumps back to create the ice clone.

So if this is an unintended result of the games hit/hurtbox mechanics, they can increase the width of the ice clone's hitbox, creating a phatom hitbox that will act like a wall along that horizontal to fix it; however, if it's by design then it's just something that Subs will have to deal with.

Nah man I suspected this too so I tried it in all combinations of stance for both characters and it was the same result. I also disproved my damage by testing it with the damage buff totem and blood sacrifice and as far as I can tell the damage means nothing. Also tried Ferra/Torrs rediculously long range back 4 and it went right through the clone as well. So yeah im convinced it is bugged I guess.

 

[Scoot Magee]

It doesn't make sense for it to work like this.

 

[dotunderscore]

Ice this supposed to happen with his Ice Klone?
Because I honestly don't know

If so can someone explain why?

You could actually do this pre-patch

When I read the patch notes I took it as the clone would go away when Sub presses the block button - hopefully (for Sub players) that isn't what they really intended

 

[SEV]

Nah man I suspected this too so I tried it in all combinations of stance for both characters and it was the same result. I also disproved my damage by testing it with the damage buff totem and blood sacrifice and as far as I can tell the damage means nothing. Also tried Ferra/Torrs rediculously long range back 4 and it went right through the clone as well. So yeah im convinced it is bugged I guess.

I'd have to see more to fully disregard it. And the point of Ferra/Torr's B4 not hitting the clone doesn't necessarily disprove it; it could just mean that, unlike Kotal's animation that sweeps in from either side, it comes in at a different angle that also avoids the legs. Like I said, since we can't view the fights from other angles, we can't know what does and doesn't truly collide with the ice clone. Maybe someone tweet at a dev to see if they will confirm whether or not the hit/hurtboxes are in 3D. It would makes sense, since the game is in 3D; it would also provide a possible explanation for other hitbox issues if the hit/hurtboxes are in 3D.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

This is why Tom is Sub-Zero.

Great find, man.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

You could actually do this pre-patch

When I read the patch notes I took it as the clone would go away when Sub presses the block button - hopefully (for Sub players) that isn't what they really intended

Wouldn't that be ironic. We draw NRS's attention to this bug, and they fix it by making him even worse, lol.

But honestly I don't think it's that. It just wouldn't make any sense.

 

[kivatt]

You could actually do this pre-patch

When I read the patch notes I took it as the clone would go away when Sub presses the block button - hopefully (for Sub players) that isn't what they really intended

I was just wondering why this happens though.

Yeah this happened during MK9 as well. IIRC SZ has massive block advantage if that happens.

It says that it's -4 on block

 

[Metzos]

why would anyone attack if i walk back? there is no threat of being mixed up. The baiting aspect is gone unless clone gets fixed.

Because either EB's hit box of s1 is ridiculous or this is intended. I m not saying walking back to the middle of the stage. I m saying walk back a bit to check your opponent. If your opponent gets frozen once you walk back a bit, i dont think thats a big deal, since SZ is super solid in the corner anyway.