General/Other - Grandmaster Sub-Zero Theory Crafting Zone

[ChaosTheory]

Is slide one of the universal moves that Subby Z gets, regardless of variation?

From what I've seen; I believe it's Ice Blast and Slide as universal specials.

 

[NB Semi Evil Ryu]

From what I've seen; I believe it's Ice Blast and Slide as universal specials.

In that case, I have a hunch that slide will be used a little less with Grandmaster than the other two variations. Especially if ice clone already absorbs projectiles.

Although, I could see a potential meta with the slide when SZ has a clone out while he's trapped in the corner. It's hard to say without getting my hands on the game.

 

[ChaosTheory]

In that case, I have a hunch that slide will be used a little less with Grandmaster than the other two variations. Especially if ice clone already absorbs projectiles.

Although, I could see a potential meta with the slide when SZ has a clone out while he's trapped in the corner. It's hard to say without getting my hands on the game.

I can't tell you how intrigued I am by what I've seen from the Slide so far. Looks like it starts up extremely quick, drops Sub's box very low, and recovers super fast judging from the latest video. I found Slide to be a great tool in MK9 and it's looking far, far better so far. Very interested to get more information and see how they're leaning towards finalizing it.

 

[NB Semi Evil Ryu]

I can't tell you how intrigued I am by what I've seen from the Slide so far. Looks like it starts up extremely quick, drops Sub's box very low, and recovers super fast judging from the latest video. I found Slide to be a great tool in MK9 and it's looking far, far better so far. Very interested to get more information and see how they're leaning towards finalizing it.

Have there been any recent gameplay videos of him that have come out that you thought showed a lot of what SZ can do? I'm a little behind on the videos.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Have there been any recent gameplay videos of him that have come out that you thought showed a lot of what SZ can do? I'm a little behind on the videos.

Aside from the group of vids that have been out for a while... I've only really taken notice of one video that came out after the Quan Chi reveal. It's in the Quan Chi vid thread or the MKX vid thread (I forget).

In that vid, I noticed the Slide (which I may have just overlooked in earlier vids, but it struck me in this vid). The aerial drop-down move was shown, too. Other than that, it's stuff we've seen and it's hard to know what to make of things without playing it yourself.

 

[NB Semi Evil Ryu]

I feel like this article will mesh very well with Sub-Zero players: http://www.esportsmax.com/columns/patience-your-wins-can-wait-online-scrub-university-1

This is a really good article that was written by Tampa Bison. It's all about that patience!

 

[loogie]

Is slide one of the universal moves that Subby Z gets, regardless of variation?

Yes, slide and ice blast are the only two universal moves... there is also the ice burst move that is restricted to only Cryomancer and Grandmaster variations. In Unbreakable he gets an ice shield (a-la Doomsday) instead.

 

[ChaosTheory]

@loogie

I know you said you mostly played Grandmaster, but I'm curious about your impression of Cryomancer. Tell me if I'm off here about MKX in general from what you saw...

People talk about the variations and bring up archetypes. The typical ones are brought up: offensive, defensive, rushdown, zoning, grappling, set-up, etc. I've seen a couple of variations (Cryomancer being one) that make me wonder if maybe one of the archetypes out there is sort of this "combo-extender" archetype. As if the main purpose of the variation is to reward you bigger when you open your opponent up, but not necessarily provide as significant a tool in the neutral game as other variations (e.g. Ice Clone).

Other variations that made that thought come to mind were (I don't remember names) Kano's grenade stance or Raiden's lightning hands stance. Does it seem like Cryomancer and some variations in the game lean towards having the player only use the base-moves but rewards you with higher damaging BnB's? Or am I way off here?

 

[Pterodactyl]

You are not, every character so far has one variation that is just a passive buff to normals.

And I love it.

 

[loogie]

@loogie

I know you said you mostly played Grandmaster, but I'm curious about your impression of Cryomancer. Tell me if I'm off here about MKX in general from what you saw...

People talk about the variations and bring up archetypes. The typical ones are brought up: offensive, defensive, rushdown, zoning, grappling, set-up, etc. I've seen a couple of variations (Cryomancer being one) that make me wonder if maybe one of the archetypes out there is sort of this "combo-extender" archetype. As if the main purpose of the variation is to reward you bigger when you open your opponent up, but not necessarily provide as significant a tool in the neutral game as other variations (e.g. Ice Clone).

Other variations that made that thought come to mind were (I don't remember names) Kano's grenade stance or Raiden's lightning hands stance. Does it seem like Cryomancer and some variations in the game lean towards having the player only use the base-moves but rewards you with higher damaging BnB's? Or am I way off here?

I played Cryomancer for a couple of games maybe, not much. but he did have couple of additional combo strings that grant juggles I think a b112 or b122. so, in terms of extending combos or having more combo potential you may be right about the Cryomancer. He also has the hammer smash move, which had good damage as I recall but you need to burn a bar for the hammer move to pop them up for a juggle. I did not know about the sky hammer drop move at the time, but that could be useful in crossup situations or something if it is neutral/plus on block. the hammer move was looking safe as it put a nice distance between you and the opponent with good recovery on block.
From what I've seen, Cryomancer can only be played offensively ... the only defensive tool you have in Cryomancer is the ice burst (ground pound move) and his uppercut move d2 which is an up slash with the sword with really good reach and hurtbox.
so in terms of variations impression: Cryo would be the more aggressive Sub - Unbreakable is the defensive Sub - Grandmaster is the "balanced" Sub with option of being defensive and offensive and the whole clone meta game going on.

 

[UsedForGlue]

I am genuinely interested to see what sort of post throw game sub zero has. I noticed a combo that ends with a grab, leaving the opponent standing after jabbing them with ice daggers. I can only see a point to it if it grants frame advantage for a D4, leaving an option for an overhead, jump in, dash up throw etc.Anyone got any legit info on that?

 

[Imperium]

The stabbing command grab in cryomancer form does amazing damage. Just that string itself does 25% damage, which is pretty stunning. Ending a full combo including an ice blast an EX- hammer with the stab is going to hit like a truck.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

Will probably scale hella

 

[ChaosTheory]

The stabbing command grab in cryomancer form does amazing damage. Just that string itself does 25% damage, which is pretty stunning. Ending a full combo including an ice blast an EX- hammer with the stab is going to hit like a truck.

I could easily see it getting toned down damage-wise. Even as an ender to BnB's was a big chunk of damage.

Of course, apparently the opponent can mash out 1/3 or 2/4 and have a 50% chance of breaking it. So maybe the damage stays but it's always 50/50 if it actually connects in a combo.

Maybe you have to do a less-damaging ender (Slide, etc.) for the guarantee. I don't know.

 

[kabelfritz]

Will probably scale hella

just saw it in a video, doesnt scale at all. last hit is almost 10%, even if its a string ender. was from November though.

 

[Imperium]

I could easily see it getting toned down damage-wise. Even as an ender to BnB's was a big chunk of damage.

Of course, apparently the opponent can mash out 1/3 or 2/4 and have a 50% chance of breaking it. So maybe the damage stays but it's always 50/50 if it actually connects in a combo.

Maybe you have to do a less-damaging ender (Slide, etc.) for the guarantee. I don't know.

Pardon me if I missed it, but you can break the command grab string? Where was that detailed?

 

[xQUANTUMx]

just saw it in a video, doesnt scale at all. last hit is almost 10%, even if its a string ender. was from November though.

I wouldn't trust damage numbers from an early build like that....

 

[kabelfritz]

I wouldn't trust damage numbers from an early build like that....

but you see where the idea is going. in cryomancer you trade meta options for damage, it wouldnt make sense to scale that additional damage too much.

 

[Imperium]

but you see where the idea is going. in cryomancer you trade meta options for damage, it wouldnt make sense to scale that additional damage too much.

Exactly, however if you are able to break that grab string, one of the biggest upsides of Cryomancer will be nullified. Right now it seems that Cryo relies on the BnB combo being extended by EX- hammer, the command grab string damage, the mix up potential of the overhead hammer, and the extended range afforded to you by the sword moves. Off the top of my head those are the biggest bonuses that you get from Cryo, and they need to cancel out the advantages of clones, and the ice aura/parry. If that command grab string can be broken, that's a huge blow to Cryo damage.

 

[kabelfritz]

Exactly, however if you are able to break that grab string, one of the biggest upsides of Cryomancer will be nullified. Right now it seems that Cryo relies on the BnB combo being extended by EX- hammer, the command grab string damage, the mix up potential of the overhead hammer, and the extended range afforded to you by the sword moves. Off the top of my head those are the biggest bonuses that you get from Cryo, and they need to cancel out the advantages of clones, and the ice aura/parry. If that command grab string can be broken, that's a huge blow to Cryo damage.

well maybe it cant. command grabs were not techable in injustice. or is this just an Extension of the normal grab?

 

[KH_Seraph]

In the corner it gets really bad.. It is literally attack into clone cancel, get checked with an attack into a combo on hit or clone cancel on block, repeat.. You must commit in some way to get out otherwise it loops for eternity as attacks into clone over and over and over.

There is no "your turn" EVER unless you commit and make it your turn which still plays into the Ice Clone. Sub-Zero is not "my turn, your turn" he is "my turn, my turn again, my turn again, and again, and again, etc..". Clone allows you to attack with 0.0% risk of any situation after you attacks are blocked. Attack hits? Easy confirm to combo. Attack gets blocked? Cancel into clone and stay safe while still trapping the opponent.

Speaking as someone who isn't a Sub-Zero main, I'm really glad they appeared to have 'balanced this out' with the inclusion of interactables that can get you out of the corner. It will make the 'counterpick' stages against Sub-Zero really obvious.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Pardon me if I missed it, but you can break the command grab string? Where was that detailed?

If I'm not mistaken, yes. I think it might have been 16-Bit that confirmed you could tech throws even while in hit-stun from a combo that ends with throw.

 

[kabelfritz]

Speaking as someone who isn't a Sub-Zero main, I'm really glad they appeared to have 'balanced this out' with the inclusion of interactables that can get you out of the corner. It will make the 'counterpick' stages against Sub-Zero really obvious.

unless someone decides every tournament match has to be fought in the Special Forces hq

 

[Imperium]

well maybe it cant. command grabs were not techable in injustice. or is this just an Extension of the normal grab?

I'm only going off of what ChaosTheory said above; "Of course, apparently the opponent can mash out 1/3 or 2/4 and have a 50% chance of breaking it. So maybe the damage stays but it's always 50/50 if it actually connects in a combo."

That's the first I've heard of that, and I know I haven't seen anyone tech that string. It's not a stand alone grab, I think someone posted the input as f4, 2, 1+3.

EDIT: If 16 Bit said that, then that's a big deal.

 

[kabelfritz]

I'm only going off of what ChaosTheory said above; "Of course, apparently the opponent can mash out 1/3 or 2/4 and have a 50% chance of breaking it. So maybe the damage stays but it's always 50/50 if it actually connects in a combo."

That's the first I've heard of that, and I know I haven't seen anyone tech that string. It's not a stand alone grab, I think someone posted the input as f4, 2, 1+3.

EDIT: If 16 Bit said that, then that's a big deal.

as part of a string it should not be techable, but i think they said on the stream theres a Frame gap and it can be backdashed... but of course not when your already juggled. so it should be fine as combo ender