General/Other - Sub-Zero Sub-Zero kombat pack 2 balance changes.

[Knoterror]

Tell me which female character you think gm sub has a losing matchup vs. there's maybe what? 2? Tops?

Tanya, for sure. D'vorah. Arguably Jacquie. But yeah, at least 2 for sure. Mileena puts up a good fight. Doesn't matter how many though. Gender shouldn't provide an inherent advantage to anyone.

But b+3,3~ice blast is better against girls so this counter balances it and makes the girl vs guy counter pick meta a 5-5.

I don't think so, personally. You can't (or at least me) really hit-confirm B33~Ice Blast. It's always a better idea to spend the bar and be -7 instead of full combo punished, regardless of the gender of your opponent.

 

[One Inch Punch]

why the fuck some pokes pass through clone?
this has to be fixed.

 

[Ze Dingo]

Tell me which female character you think gm sub has a losing matchup vs. there's maybe what? 2? Tops?

Tanya, D'vorah, Sonya, Cassie and Mileena all become much worse MUs solely because of gender.

I don't think so, personally. You can't (or at least me) really hit-confirm B33~Ice Blast. It's always a better idea to spend the bar and be -7 instead of full combo punished, regardless of the gender of your opponent.

-8.

 

[FL Rushdown]

Tanya, D'vorah, Sonya, Cassie and Mileena all become much worse MUs solely because of gender.

So you think gm loses those matchups?

 

[Wigy]

Tanya, for sure. D'vorah. Arguably Jacquie. But yeah, at least 2 for sure. Mileena puts up a good fight. Doesn't matter how many though. Gender shouldn't provide an inherent advantage to anyone.



I don't think so, personally. You can't (or at least me) really hit-confirm B33~Ice Blast. It's always a better idea to spend the bar and be -7 instead of full combo punished, regardless of the gender of your opponent.

Dude i play sub some times for shits and giggles and b33 is hella hit confirmable. Level the shit up.

 

[Wigy]

Tanya, D'vorah, Sonya, Cassie and Mileena all become much worse MUs solely because of gender.



-8.

Cassie has NO wakeup options in the corner, neither does d'vora. Cassie hasnt got a good way of getting around clone in neutral in general and shes a rushdown character. Jaqui... Stop scraping the barrel here

Tanya i have no clue, so cant comment here.

 

[Knoterror]

I'm sorry but most people try to fuzzy guard the 50/50 and end up only getting hit by second low. This is why F33 and 12 cancels are a thing. Sure, it happens that a naked b3 connects, but it's so rare I've stopped doing raw ice balls.

 

[Ze Dingo]

Cassie has NO wakeup options in the corner, neither does d'vora. Cassie hasnt got a good way of getting around clone in neutral in general and shes a rushdown character. Jaqui... Stop scraping the barrel here

Tanya i have no clue, so cant comment here.

If the clone is set up properly, no one has wake up options in the corner except maybe Tempest, Scorpion's ex tp. I said they become worse. I did not say that Sub loses the MUs. I'm perfectly fine with things the way they are, with respect to Grandmaster Sub's current incarnation.

So you think gm loses those matchups?

He loses Tanya and D'vorah. Possibly Mileena and Sonya. I don't think he loses Cassie or Jacqui.

 

[Goat-City]

But b+3,3~ice blast is better against girls so this counter balances it and makes the girl vs guy counter pick meta a 5-5.

Not really because your goal with Sub Zero midscreen generally is not to do any unsafe 50/50s. You just want to push the opponent into the corner with f4/f42 into a safe clone cancel. Having a meterless low combo starter is not nearly as valuable as being able to combo females in the corner for normal damage into a safe clone setup for no meter.

 

[Ze Dingo]

Not really because your goal with Sub Zero midscreen generally is not to do any unsafe 50/50s. You just want to push the opponent into the corner with f4/f42 into a safe clone cancel. Having a meterless low combo starter is not nearly as valuable as being able to combo females in the corner for normal damage into a safe clone setup for no meter.

...

F42~clone is one of the most unsafe clone cancels there is.

 

[Goat-City]

...

F42~clone is one of the most unsafe clone cancels there is.

Yeah I know, but it's still very useful.

 

[Ze Dingo]

Yeah I know, but it's still very useful.

When your opponent is a bloody scrub who refuses to lab and only complains about clone, sure.

 

[Goat-City]

When your opponent is a bloody scrub who refuses to lab and only complains about clone, sure.

Or when your opponent has no meter or if they don't have an armored move that can go through it. You can also just do f42 or f42 EX clone to make them scared to use their reversal.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Grandmaster is perfectly fine. It is his general move set that could do with being tweaked.

Things like, 112, 114, F4, B334.

Cryomancer and Unbreakable on the other hand need serious attention...Cyromancer for one, you can't just throw damage at the character and ignore the fundamental problems.

 

[rubmytaco]

Umm..no. You just get corner raped until you die. You use your three bars, you get baited and destroyed.
Not everyone is Kung Lao.

In every tournament I've ever watched on this site, everyone HAD to counterpick grandmaster with his rare bad matchups. HAD to.

Untrue.

 

[Syzoth]

This is why we hate you all. You know what buffs grandmaster needs? Normalizing on his combos. That's it.

The saving grace of this is all the sub zero mains telling you this is absurd.

 

[Solid]

Dude i play sub some times for shits and giggles and b33 is hella hit confirmable. Level the shit up.

B33 isn't easy to hit confirm. You have to confirm the first hit(which I do by seeing the animation of the opponent bending forward after being hit by the first hit of B33) and you can't be late with the cancel into ice ball. But just like my fellow Sub Zero mains, I also prefer to do B33 into EX ice ball for the occasions when the opponent blocks the first but not the second hit of B33. That will mess up my confirm but still awards me with a combo at the cost of their mistake.

 

[Solid]

I hope Paulo gives Unbreakable Parry Run Cancels. BOOM!

 

[EMPR_MURK]

Can Cryomancer have a slightly faster d2 or is that too much...???

 

[crosshair271]

I hope Paulo gives Unbreakable Parry Run Cancels. BOOM!

But why give an offensive tool to a defensive variation? I wanted run cancel for Cryomancers hammer but I was more than happy with the changes it got last time.

For Unbreakable I would like Ice Puddle for making traps and when people jump in. Puddle, JIP, B12xxAura, B12xxIceball, JIP, 242, Run, 1, Run, B12xxBurst. Although I'm not sure if it should be a low or unblockable and you can jump out. I feel like low would be more fair as an unblockable they'd be forced to jump and we just B2 them to death. Then again as a low it would automatically be block low on the earliest frame of wake-up then block high. Tight window but not as difficult to block as Quan Bat since it would always be Low then High unless you hit the same frame and Puddle is canceled so block High. But it would never be High then low since you can't out meaty the Puddle, only be timed exactly which cancels Puddle.

 

[Solid]

But why give an offensive tool to a defensive variation? I wanted run cancel for Cryomancers hammer but I was more than happy with the changes it got last time.

For Unbreakable I would like Ice Puddle for making traps and when people jump in. Puddle, JIP, B12xxAura, B12xxIceball, JIP, 242, Run, 1, Run, B12xxBurst. Although I'm not sure if it should be a low or unblockable and you can jump out. I feel like low would be more fair as an unblockable they'd be forced to jump and we just B2 them to death. Then again as a low it would automatically be block low on the earliest frame of wake-up then block high. Tight window but not as difficult to block as Quan Bat since it would always be Low then High unless you hit the same frame and Puddle is canceled so block High.

Offense is the best defense.

 

[Wigy]

B33 isn't easy to hit confirm. You have to confirm the first hit(which I do by seeing the animation of the opponent bending forward after being hit by the first hit of B33) and you can't be late with the cancel into ice ball. But just like my fellow Sub Zero mains, I also prefer to do B33 into EX ice ball for the occasions when the opponent blocks the first but not the second hit of B33. That will mess up my confirm but still awards me with a combo at the cost of their mistake.

i have never had any issue with it.

 

[EGP Awesomo]

I think the only thing Id like to see if b33 ice ball work on the whole cast. I think as the game is evolving there is more reliance on EX clone, so id be nice to see him not have to spend a bar of meter everytime he hits a male character for a combo. Outside of that I think everything is pretty fine. UNbreakable and Cryo doe? They need some help

 

[Wushu Warrior]

Sub zero just needs fixes
Grandmaster needs en clones on hit fixed and ice toss buffs.

Cryomancer needs an added dagger on b2 for more range and it'd look pretty cool haha
Also less recovery on air hammer.

Unbreakable needs the aura scaling to be gone. And ice shield needs to absorb multiple projectiles. maybe allow it to be held and run cancel able.

And in general I think en slide should do 13% because 11% doesn't close out a match
And ice burst should be -5 on block and better vertical hit box

 

[boba_buster]

#unbreakunbreakable