General/Other - Sub-Zero Sub-Zero kombat pack 2 balance changes.

[Wetdoba]

It's actually worse in other games. You have character specific combos, crouching/stand specific combos, screen positioning specific combos, counter hit specific combos(which can also depend on crouch/stand)character specific set ups/safe jumps(because other games also have variable wake up frame data for characters). MK has pretty much just got female/male hit boxes and like 2-3 characters with weird gravity. For the most part MK lets you learn a few BnBs and go play, it's simpler, not better or worse, just simpler.

if it's consistent you can learn it, and if you can learn you can adapt. So be a member of the FGC and just change your combos when you have to. Fighting games are basically fast paced strategy games and the less "one size fits all" combos there are the better(disclaimer: opinion).

You are implying that these people have other expierence at a semi high level with other fighting games and should be comparing MKX to them to see things from a different perspective. If that were the case they would already know how broke having any form of an ice clone is in a 2D fighting game, instead they want it buffed still lol

 

[DOOMSDAY-15RUS-]

I needed 2 sec to think WTF remove cd from clone or hit twice ? no need read the rest. U TALKING ABOUT BALANCE and you want buff a fking brain dead variation of top tier character ?

QC and SZ clone should have at least same cd like nible, joker

 

[FL Rushdown]

You are implying that these people have other expierence at a semi high level with other fighting games and should be comparing MKX to them to see things from a different perspective. If that were the case they would already know how broke having any form of an ice clone is in a 2D fighting game, instead they want it buffed still lol

Yeah but even in those other games I've never heard newer people complain about this particular concept. Different characters having different passive traits(wake up frames, hurtboxes, Gravity)is just something that gets accepted. I dunno, I just always liked the depth it added, and it honestly felt like it forced people to experiment more.

On a side note I don't think the clone is broken, I just think it's an incredibly hard to balance tool, Its pretty much by design going to create a character that has a mix of very easy and very hard matchups. Very little 5-5s gonna happen around the clone.

 

[Goat-City]

In melee it is 100x more significant than in MKX. You have to know different combos for literally every single match up in the game (not an exaggeration). I actually always liked the variety it provided, as it increased the game knowledge ceiling and you didn't constantly see the same BnBs like you do in other fighting games.

What makes it significant is how much it effects the characters. Sub Zero

It's actually worse in other games. You have character specific combos, crouching/stand specific combos, screen positioning specific combos, counter hit specific combos(which can also depend on crouch/stand)character specific set ups/safe jumps(because other games also have variable wake up frame data for characters). MK has pretty much just got female/male hit boxes and like 2-3 characters with weird gravity. For the most part MK lets you learn a few BnBs and go play, it's simpler, not better or worse, just simpler.

if it's consistent you can learn it, and if you can learn you can adapt. So be a member of the FGC and just change your combos when you have to. Fighting games are basically fast paced strategy games and the less "one size fits all" combos there are the better(disclaimer: opinion).

It's not about learning, it's about how much you lose from having to change your combos. Sub Zero loses 15-20% and his safe clone setup.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

If you thought things couldn't get worse after reading the OP, you couldn't have been more wrong

 

[FL Rushdown]

What makes it significant is how much it effects the characters. Sub Zero
It's not about learning, it's about how much you lose from having to change your combos. Sub Zero loses 15-20% and his safe clone setup.

Yes and when I play evil Ryu and I'm not vs Rufus I lose about 25% and 3-400 stun. When I play guy and I'm vs cammy I lose every safe jump setup I have off of throws.

Losing options in certain matchups is just how fighting games work. Even if you don't realize it you should already be altering your play style in pretty much every matchup anyway since the usefulness of your tools ALWAYS depends on the tools your opponent has. Besides Grandmaster sub doesn't have 7-3 matchups, at worst he might have a few 6-4s and I can guarantee you it's not because of his combo damage being lowered.

 

[RM Ree]

Clone shatter should shut the opponents controller off on hit.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

1. Iceball should be unblockable because ur forearms can't save u from being frozen duh
2. Clone should be able to fight and move like a second sub zero as its name suggests
3. Teleport cuz he can in story duh
4. All ice attacks make opponent freeze to death
5. Grandmaster should be able to summon Lin Kuei minions because why else would it be called grandmaster?

 

[Solignac]

1. Iceball should be unblockable because ur forearms can't save u from being frozen duh
2. Clone should be able to fight and move like a second sub zero as its name suggests
3. Teleport cuz he can in story duh
4. All ice attacks make opponent freeze to death
5. Grandmaster should be able to summon Lin Kuei minions because why else would it be called grandmaster?

You should be able to make your clone shadow kick. Johnny cage can do it, why can't we?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

You should be able to make your clone shadow kick. Johnny cage can do it, why can't we?

Right, no fucking fair! How come Quan has a bat and not us? I want a bat Klone!

 

[RM Ree]

Make gravity apply when opponents are frozen in the air, then have the opponent take fall damage, waking up stunned to allow a follow up combo. AND if that fall damage kills, #brutality where they just shatter.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

People will think I'm kidding when I say Cryo Sub is one unnecessary buff away from being inadvertently catapulted to the top of the food chain.

Other than fixing his glitches, he is fine.
Unbreakable could use some help, but that's it.

 

[youthinkyoubadyouaintbad]

we should be able to put down unlimited ice clones with no cool-down. Just a wall of ice clones.

 

[Goat-City]

Yes and when I play evil Ryu and I'm not vs Rufus I lose about 25% and 3-400 stun. When I play guy and I'm vs cammy I lose every safe jump setup I have off of throws.

Losing options in certain matchups is just how fighting games work. Even if you don't realize it you should already be altering your play style in pretty much every matchup anyway since the usefulness of your tools ALWAYS depends on the tools your opponent has. Besides Grandmaster sub doesn't have 7-3 matchups, at worst he might have a few 6-4s and I can guarantee you it's not because of his combo damage being lowered.

Wait, so when you're evil Ryu and you're not laying Rufus you lose 25%? That means that's your normal damage then and you get extra damage on Rufus. I'm not sure how significant your safe jump setup is off throws, is it as significant as losing 15-20% and a safe clone setup on a character who's only top tier in the corner? If so, then they should be fixed in Street Fighter too, that's ridiculous. If bad match ups can be mitigated then they should be, and if a match up is a lot worse just because of a character's hitbox then that hitbox should be fixed. GM Sub does have 2 7-3 match ups or worse that I can think of. HQT Predator and Tremor or at least Crystalline Tremor.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Wait, so when you're evil Ryu and you're not laying Rufus you lose 25%? That means that's your normal damage then and you get extra damage on Rufus. I'm not sure how significant your safe jump setup is off throws, is it as significant as losing 15-20% and a safe clone setup on a character who's only top tier in the corner? If so, then they should be fixed in Street Fighter too, that's ridiculous. If bad match ups can be mitigated then they should be, and if a match up is a lot worse just because of a character's hitbox then that hitbox should be fixed. GM Sub does have 2 7-3 match ups or worse that I can think of. HQT Predator and Tremor or at least Crystalline Tremor.

Aftershock handles sub better than crystal.

 

[Tom Brady]

The only changes SZ needs to changes in GM are:
1. Fix the bug where the opponent can block after being frozen.
2. Lord Paulo... please let us do combos to womenz

OK.. #2 isnt a must have lol. He really only needs #1.

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

The only changes SZ needs to changes in GM are:
1. Fix the bug where the opponent can block after being frozen.
2. Lord Paulo... please let us do combos to womenz

OK.. #2 isnt a must have lol. He really only needs #1.

trade midscreen b33xxiceball for bigger meterless corner combos on females?

 

[Ze Dingo]

The only changes SZ needs to changes in GM are:
1. Fix the bug where the opponent can block after being frozen.
2. Lord Paulo... please let us do combos to womenz

OK.. #2 isnt a must have lol. He really only needs #1.

Wtf.

Can you show me a video demonstrating #1, please?

 

[RM Ree]

The only changes SZ needs to changes in GM are:
1. Fix the bug where the opponent can block after being frozen.
2. Lord Paulo... please let us do combos to womenz

OK.. #2 isnt a must have lol. He really only needs #1.

Yeah I've heard of #1 before, but I've never seen it myself. Is there a method to recreate this or can you show us what it looks like?

 

[thlityoursloat]

Lol Cyromancer is fine but Grandmaster needs buffs?

 

[GAV]

Ice clone nerf was the most unnecessary nerf in the history of gaming, it didn't accomplish anything other than nerfing Sub-zero for the sake of nerfing. There are many characters who can blow the clone and land a combo on sub-zero without resorting to meter-burned moves but for some unknown mystical reason Sub-zero got nerfed.

Grandmaster:

1. Clone disappears if Sub-zero blocks 2-hits (instead of 1)
OR
Remove the cooldown on ice-clone

2. Enhanced ice ball freezes opponent even if opponent has already been frozen once by ice-ball/Ice-clone in a single combo.

3. Add Enhanced clone toss.

4. Enhanced clone toss has armor and freezes opponent upon contact.

5. Enhanced clone shatter freezes opponent.


Cryomancer:

This variation is perfectly fine the way it is.


Unplayable:

Lets turn this variation into unbreakable by simple changes.

1. Normal ice aura reduces damage taken.

2. Ex ice aura reduces damage taken and heals sub zero, if sub zero gets hit healing stops.

3. Parry works against jump attacks.



Sub-zero's deception costume plz.

 

[Knoterror]

No, I actually do think they need to fix the gender specific stuff. Right now that means a default female counterpick to a smart player, and then whatever female they feel has the best tools. Once you get the ladies cornered, the high damage is a lot tougher to get than it is for males.

Ultimately, I think that's dumb. I'd rather they take a look at clone hit boxes and females and make everything work across genders.

 

[Wigy]

Sub community seems to be either level headed or complete fucking morons.

 

[FL Rushdown]

No, I actually do think they need to fix the gender specific stuff. Right now that means a default female counterpick to a smart player, and then whatever female they feel has the best tools. Once you get the ladies cornered, the high damage is a lot tougher to get than it is for males.

Ultimately, I think that's dumb. I'd rather they take a look at clone hit boxes and females and make everything work across genders.

Tell me which female character you think gm sub has a losing matchup vs. there's maybe what? 2? Tops?

 

[16 Bit]

No, I actually do think they need to fix the gender specific stuff. Right now that means a default female counterpick to a smart player, and then whatever female they feel has the best tools. Once you get the ladies cornered, the high damage is a lot tougher to get than it is for males.

Ultimately, I think that's dumb. I'd rather they take a look at clone hit boxes and females and make everything work across genders.

But b+3,3~ice blast is better against girls so this counter balances it and makes the girl vs guy counter pick meta a 5-5.