General/Other - Sub-Zero Sub-Zero General Discussion

[AcMilan91]

So why not B2, 242, B3 xx klone on females? It seems to work on them, crouching hitbox or not.



Try turning off release check. If you have that off already, you're probably doing the db motion during one of the 1 inputs.

Ill try on training, yeah i do b3 on females

 

[Tanno]

My gift for all of you Lin Kuei loyalists.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Couple things: if you want to practice combos on females, do it on Mileena. D'Vorah and Tanya seem to be easiest to combo and Mileena seems hardest. Maybe it's just me though?

And what do you guys do vs Stunt Double Johnny? Some of us think we win slightly, others think it's even, some of us think we lose slightly. I understand Stunt Double Johnny pretty well but I think I'm missing something. But how do you guys like to play this one? I don't like putting out a Klone because he gets a free mimic call which kind of neuters the Klone. And I don't really like playing footsies with Johnny without the Klone. It's nice that the Stunt Double Fireballs are terrible and we can body him in the corner obviously, but how do you guys like to play it at the start of the match and in open space with no Klone and no mimics out? I usually just try to mix as soon as possible to take him to the corner and take any type of neutral out of it because I find it pretty awkward in the neutral.

 

[youthinkyoubadyouaintbad]

Couple things: if you want to practice combos on females, do it on Mileena. D'Vorah and Tanya seem to be easiest to combo and Mileena seems hardest. Maybe it's just me though?

And what do you guys do vs Stunt Double Johnny? Some of us think we win slightly, others think it's even, some of us think we lose slightly. I understand Stunt Double Johnny pretty well but I think I'm missing something. But how do you guys like to play this one? I don't like putting out a Klone because he gets a free mimic call which kind of neuters the Klone. And I don't really like playing footsies with Johnny without the Klone. It's nice that the Stunt Double Fireballs are terrible and we can body him in the corner obviously, but how do you guys like to play it at the start of the match and in open space with no Klone and no mimics out? I usually just try to mix as soon as possible to take him to the corner and take any type of neutral out of it because I find it pretty awkward in the neutral.

yeah a good stunt double johnny gives subzero a lot of problems, i think stunt double has the edge. i think u are right to go for the corner ASAP, johnny wins the neutral, johnny destroys u up close.

i'm gonna just ji1, 12 EXiceball corner carry at the start of every cage match see how that works

 

[Tanno]

I don't have experience against Johnny Cage, so I won't answer to that. But I think in image training that the Stunt Double will have the upper hand against GM SZ. He has the ability to break through the Ice Klone, just like Ermac's Tele-lift, Kenshi's Astral Projection and Quan Chi's Trance.

 

[AcMilan91]

Hello subby guys, i need help.. I was playing yesterday against tremor aftershock, and so i have problem with crossups alot!! How to counter that? Next one is, when i armor frost bomb i cant coneft f42 3+1 f4 whiffs, and can u help me should i use some other bnb's beside these
midscreen iceball~jip 242 rc 1 123 slide
If i am getting him in corner its same but 112
If he is like really close to the corner its like 242 jip jip f12
In corner i use
Clone 12 shatter 1 11 clone njp jip f12
B2 b2 d1 d1 b12 clone njp jip f12
I know about some ex clone combo with uppercut but i dont know exactly how it goes...
So any help with this mu?

 

[Tweedy]

This post is just for fun/speculation.

What can Alien do about close klone if his tail doesn't go through the klone?

I don't think he would a single real option. Lol, hopefully Sub Zero is adjusted a little.

 

[Tweedy]

Yeah, gotta a feeling Grandmaster has paid a price for this. Hopefully it's not THAT Big a price.

Maybe they can let Alien's D3 go through the klone still, so that Alien can at least get a turn after blocking a mix up/ducking a throw?

It's been awhile since the last update, so maybe they've covered everything.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

This post is just for fun/speculation.

What can Alien do about close klone if his tail doesn't go through the klone?

I don't think he would a single real option. Lol, hopefully Sub Zero is adjusted a little.

Hopefully he can "get rekt" and hold that.

Sub already does ass damage unless in the corner and has a hard time getting out of the corner himself. What would YOU take away for this possible clone buff?


and for all the sub players:

Does that gif showing alien getting frozen mean that original ice clone is back and people actually get frozen when they touch it (as they should)??!! XD

 

[Lord Beef]

Hopefully he can "get rekt" and hold that.

Sub already does ass damage unless in the corner and has a hard time getting out of the corner himself. What would YOU take away for this possible clone buff?


and for all the sub players:

Does that gif showing alien getting frozen mean that original ice clone is back and people actually get frozen when they touch it (as they should)??!! XD

I mean, maybe? lol. Im more interested in how they will handle disjointed hitboxes in general. Specifically if it will be focused on actual body parts or weapons too,. Which if the latter, then ill be hanging up the swords in this MU.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I mean, maybe? lol. Im more interested in how they will handle disjointed hitboxes in general. Specifically if it will be focused on actual body parts or weapons too,. Which if the latter, then ill be hanging up the swords in this MU.

Beef -MFing- Supreme!!!! <3

Explain your swords comment. lol

Also, I only ask because I would be beyond hype if this was a clone buff and I'd be playing the game a lot more than I do now if true. lol

Why would they only make that change to one character tho? Surely it's either a buff to clone or a nerf to characters with moves like alien's tail thing.

 

[ChaosTheory]

When I saw the gif, it looked like Alien's tail went nearly halfway through before it collided. I'll have to look again. Wouldn't see why Alien's d3 or other characters' pokes that can reach through Clone would lose that ability.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Ok if the changes to Reptile and Alien carry over to other characters and:
1. No hurtbox limbs aren't a thing
2. Armor launchers are not a thing
3. Sub's other variations get buffs
4. All top tiers that are a bad matchup get nerfed(Alien, Mileena, Takeda, Demo, etc)
Sub-Zero would potentially be a top 5 character. I'm not trying to overreact, I'm just excited for the patch is all.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

When I saw the gif, it looked like Alien's tail went nearly halfway through before it collided. I'll have to look again. Wouldn't see why Alien's d3 or other characters' pokes that can reach through Clone would lose that ability.

Because it shouldn't be a thing to begin with.

 

[Tweedy]

Hopefully he can "get rekt" and hold that.

Sub already does ass damage unless in the corner and has a hard time getting out of the corner himself. What would YOU take away for this possible clone buff?


and for all the sub players:

Does that gif showing alien getting frozen mean that original ice clone is back and people actually get frozen when they touch it (as they should)??!! XD

Yeah but we're talking about guessing right vs having no options.

I'm not exaggerating, the only thing that doesn't get frozen by close klone are D3 and B4. If his tail gets a hurtbox neither of those will work.

 

[Tweedy]

I'm not posting to overreact or anything like that. If it ends up being a problem I just won't use Alien, so it doesn't really matter.

I'm just speculating this possibility. If NRS overlooked Alien's limited options to escape close klone, regardless of the tail going through it, then maybe it'll be a 99/100 game ending situation on the next version lol.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

If Alien's tail has a hurtbox he really will have no options in the corner w/ close Klone. Sub will get to mix him for free, with 2-3 attempts to open him up with no way of being punished.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Yeah but we're talking about guessing right vs having no options.

I'm not exaggerating, the only thing that doesn't get frozen by close klone are D3 and B4. If his tail gets a hurtbox neither of those will work.

And they shouldn't. Been having this argument since the game dropped. lol Clone is supposed to freeze anything that touches it.

That said... I don't play the game much so I don't know Alien's options. I would give him an armor move that punishes clone so he can get away/punish. (if he doesn't already have one) Then he wouldn't be perma trapped in corner and wouldn't have "no options" midscreen. So that way both players have to think about what they will do if there is a clone up or if there isn't. Alien's job would be, don't let sub breathe. Sub's would be, get a lead and turtle or push to corner and bait armor.

 

[Tweedy]

And they shouldn't. Been having this argument since the game dropped. lol Clone is supposed to freeze anything that touches it.

That said... I don't play the game much so I don't know Alien's options. I would give him an armor move that punishes clone so he can get away/punish. (if he doesn't already have one) Then he wouldn't be perma trapped in corner and wouldn't have "no options" midscreen. So that way both players have to think about what they will do if there is a clone up or if there isn't. Alien's job would be, don't let sub breathe. Sub's would be, get a lead and turtle or push to corner and bait armor.

Like I said in that other thread, it's pretty clear that you're just pushing a Sub agenda here.

Alien should have options, as should everyone else. Sub can poke, armor, jump, guess right, once Alien or anyone else corners him. Alien can only guess right currently once the close klone set up is applied, and even that won't be an option if his tail is given a full hurtbox.

Having armor as your only option is so ridiculously bad lol. I've never seen agenda pushing this bad.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Like I said in that other thread, it's pretty clear that you're just pushing a Sub agenda here.

Alien should have options, as should everyone else. Sub can poke, armor, jump, guess right, once Alien or anyone else corners him. Alien can only guess right currently once the close klone set up is applied, and even that won't be an option if his tail is given a full hurtbox.

Having armor as your only option is so ridiculously bad lol. I've never seen agenda pushing this bad.

I wouldn't do it without nerfs. See other thread. Idk why we're doing this in two places lol

 

[Lokheit]

I agree that there is probably a compensation here. I think it's going to be shatter juggles knocking down (so no more 40+% combos and barely around 30 and lower with the low starter) as a compensation for the klone dealing with limbs (so far we only know about Alien though). You would still be able to loop corner combos into setup (basically ending a worse combo in F12 as always) but you will need more succesful repetitions to win (so the opponent has more opportunities to change sides). But hey! This would help making GMs combos universal across both genders without touching the engine

Some overal predictions seeing the direction that the changes are taking:

- EX Burst won't launch.
- EX Hammer (Cryo) won't have armor (pointless change as using that move for armor is asking for most strings to break it without even trying lol).
- Unbreakable Aura effects will be universal (no EX version) and you will be able to meterburn it AFTER use for combo cancel (like the Fisticuffs buff, I think this will be the same for Flame Fist or Cutthroat Kano too).

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

That's what I said in the other thread, nerf his corner damage for the clone fix. (if it is a clone change and not an alien change)

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

@Tweedy , Many characters only have the option to armor or reaction poke when trapped by Clone in the corner. That said, don't forget about the original purpose of the variation system: to help with bad MUs. Tarkatan vs. GM should be a bad MU, due to the tools both characters have. However, picking Acidic or Konjurer against GM would provide more options. If they buff correctly (and that's a big if when it comes to NRS, as we all know), then Konjurer may finally have a purpose.

 

[Tweedy]

@Tweedy , Many characters only have the option to armor or reaction poke when trapped by Clone in the corner. That said, don't forget about the original purpose of the variation system: to help with bad MUs. Tarkatan vs. GM should be a bad MU, due to the tools both characters have. However, picking Acidic or Konjurer against GM would provide more options. If they buff correctly (and that's a big if when it comes to NRS, as we all know), then Konjurer may finally have a purpose.

Alien can't poke the close klone, though. He can only D3, because of his tail having no hurtbox.

Other characters can poke after a blocked attack or a whiffed throw. Alien cannot because his D1 and other normals move him too far forward.

Edit: When I say he can't poke, I say that with the change to his tail hurtbox in mind. Obviously he can D3 now.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

When I said poke, I meant attack on reaction to incoming Sub. For example, when Sub is coming in to B33 or Throw. Alien's D1 should work for that.

Seriously though, if Konjurer's OH call or egg was faster, couldn't you imagine using that as an answer? Not saying it's as good as the tail, obviously, but it would be better than with Tarkatan.