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General/Other - Sub-Zero Sub-Zero General Discussion

ILuvFightGames

ILuvFightGames

Noob
boba_buster said:
Yea ,go into practice mode and practice it like a million times. You'll get it
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Yea I will, also one last thing, I've noticed that even after I do the same string in the corner sometimes it will combo into ice clone and sometimes the clone won't come out, even though I do the same string, what's the timing for the clone to come out consistently?
 
AGRxShiroKuma

AGRxShiroKuma

The White Bear
So can anyone explain to my what all is wrong with grandmaster sub zero since I was so wrong to put him in my Honorable mentions for top 5. Not saying he is top 5 I just see alot of potential in him it's just the female hitboxes and sometimes how clone decides it doesn't want to work and a few other things just hold him back. Someone help me understand.
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
AGRxShiroKuma said:
So can anyone explain to my what all is wrong with grandmaster sub zero since I was so wrong to put him in my Honorable mentions for top 5. Not saying he is top 5 I just see alot of potential in him it's just the female hitboxes and sometimes how clone decides it doesn't want to work and a few other things just hold him back. Someone help me understand.
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Sub-Zero is a good character, but what would hold him back is how many bad matchups he has and the way the Ice Klone works. On one hand you have characters like Jax: Sub-Zero rapes poor Jax because he has no meterless options around the Klone. Upon deployment of a Klone, Jax, Reptile, Cassie, and many others have their move list essentially cut in half. But on the other hand there are characters like D'Vorah or Sonya where they nullify the Klone completely and Sub-Zero is forced to fight with his lackluster strings and normals and the only time the Klone can be used is in the corner. Basically he can absolutely ruin some characters, but the same can be done to him by some. It is what it is, and I guess what it is, is mid tier.
 
AGRxShiroKuma

AGRxShiroKuma

The White Bear
Dankster Morgan said:
Sub-Zero is a good character, but what would hold him back is how many bad matchups he has and the way the Ice Klone works. On one hand you have characters like Jax: Sub-Zero rapes poor Jax because he has no meterless options around the Klone. Upon deployment of a Klone, Jax, Reptile, Cassie, and many others have their move list essentially cut in half. But on the other hand there are characters like D'Vorah or Sonya where they nullify the Klone completely and Sub-Zero is forced to fight with his lackluster strings and normals and the only time the Klone can be used is in the corner. Basically he can absolutely ruin some characters, but the same can be done to him by some. It is what it is, and I guess what it is, is mid tier.
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You said everything I was trying to say in that thread but much better. Just an Honorable mention in my book. I main cryomancer anyway but when I tried our grandmaster for few months I saw alot of utility with his clone. Hard knock down then pulling them into my clone with a grab is one of my favorites.
 
ILuvFightGames

ILuvFightGames

Noob
Dankster Morgan said:
Sub-Zero is a good character, but what would hold him back is how many bad matchups he has and the way the Ice Klone works. On one hand you have characters like Jax: Sub-Zero rapes poor Jax because he has no meterless options around the Klone. Upon deployment of a Klone, Jax, Reptile, Cassie, and many others have their move list essentially cut in half. But on the other hand there are characters like D'Vorah or Sonya where they nullify the Klone completely and Sub-Zero is forced to fight with his lackluster strings and normals and the only time the Klone can be used is in the corner. Basically he can absolutely ruin some characters, but the same can be done to him by some. It is what it is, and I guess what it is, is mid tier.
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Doesn't predator pretty much rape subzero? I mean his clone goes away on block and just predators smart disc is all you need right? For example sub does clone, predator does discs, isn't predator guaranteed to have the upper hand since the discs make subzero block, which means bye bye clone, which means bye bye subs best move.
 
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Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
ILuvFightGames said:
Doesn't predator pretty much rape subzero? I mean his clone goes away on block and just predators smart disc is all you need right? For example sub does clone, predator does discs, isn't predator guaranteed to have the upper hand since the disc make subzero block, which means bye bye clone, which means bye bye subs best move.
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Yeah, HQT Predator is is tough. Imo Sub-Zero's hardest matchups are:
D'Vorah(Swarm Queen)
Sonya(Demolition)
Mileena(Piercing
Predator(HQT)
Alien(Acidic and Tarkatan)
Takeda(Lasher and SR)
Kung Jin(Shaolin)
Ermac(Mystic)
Ferra/Torr(Vicious)

Tremor(Aftershock) used to be very hard, but after the patch it isn't near as bad.
 
ILuvFightGames

ILuvFightGames

Noob
Dankster Morgan said:
Yeah, HQT Predator is is tough. Imo Sub-Zero's hardest matchups are:
D'Vorah(Swarm Queen)
Sonya(Demolition)
Mileena(Piercing
Predator(HQT)
Alien(Acidic and Tarkatan)
Takeda(Lasher and SR)
Kung Jin(Shaolin)
Ermac(Mystic)
Ferra/Torr(Vicious)

Tremor(Aftershock) used to be very hard, but after the patch it isn't near as bad.
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I saw the video someone posted about Subzero vs Alien here not too long ago, and I was appalled at how Aliens tail swipe,grab or whatever it's called just went through the clone, I mean it covers half screen and it's still invulnerable to the clone? Man that was unfair if not straight out broken.
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
ILuvFightGames said:
I saw the video someone posted about Subzero vs Alien here not too long ago, and I was appalled at how Aliens tail swipe,grab or whatever it's called just went through the clone, I mean it covers half screen and it's still invulnerable to the clone? Man that was unfair if not straight out broken.
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It's frustrating but whatever I guess
 
Tweedy

Tweedy

Champion
ILuvFightGames said:
I saw the video someone posted about Subzero vs Alien here not too long ago, and I was appalled at how Aliens tail swipe,grab or whatever it's called just went through the clone, I mean it covers half screen and it's still invulnerable to the clone? Man that was unfair if not straight out broken.
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How about how Tarkatan can only punish the untechable throw with D3, or how he can low crush my snag with F33, or how I can't punish F33 period and it becomes a true 50/50 with the untechable throw. So my only punish can ever be is a D3 on one of his options, once cornered. Once i'm conditioned to that 50/50, he can take a risk and B2 me.

Anti airing Sub's jump 1 is also so difficult as Alien, unless you armor. Both characters have a fucked up 6 frame jump in, which is practically the only way that they hit each other out of the air, outside of armor. Trip guarding with Alien is also balls due to his meh walk speed, so you often just have to hold Sub's jump ins.

If as many people played Tarkatan as Sub Zero, it'd be seen as a clean 6-4. Tarkatan has easier matches(HQT, War God, less relevant variations). We gotta start pegging D'vorah and Takeda as 8-2s, if Tarkatan is a 7-3.
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Tweedy said:
How about how Tarkatan can only punish the untechable throw with D3, or how he can low crush my snag with F33, or how I can't punish F33 period and it becomes a true 50/50 with the untechable throw. So my only punish can ever be is a D3 on one of his options, once cornered. Once i'm conditioned to that 50/50, he can take a risk and B2 me.

Anti airing Sub's jump 1 is also so difficult as Alien, unless you armor. Both characters have a fucked up 6 frame jump in, which is practically the only way that they hit each other out of the air, outside of armor. Trip guarding with Alien is also balls due to his meh walk speed, so you often just have to hold Sub's jump ins.

If as many people played Tarkatan as Sub Zero, it'd be seen as a clean 6-4. Tarkatan has easier matches(HQT, War God, less relevant variations). We gotta start pegging D'vorah and Takeda as 8-2s, if Tarkatan is a 7-3.
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I think D'Vorah might be 8-2. She shuts down everything. I think Tarkatan is a 7-3. It doesn't feel like any of Sub's 4-6s(think Stunt Double Cage). You should never be put in the corner. Yes the corner is abysmal for Alien, there is no way around that. Sub has corner carry so he does a combo and puts him there. But he can't re-clone after a slide ender so he has to guess right on Alien's wakeup. So to get him in the corner Sub has to guess right at least twice... Which sucks ass lol.
 
Tanno

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
boba_buster said:
They have to be low to the ground when you do the b12 , too highly and the clone will whiff
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True. They NEED to fix this. I noticed that you can freeze your opponent only if he's above your head. Between this frame to the low part, SZ whiffs, which I hate personally.
 
RVB

RVB

twitch.tv/rvblacktail
Tweedy said:
How about how Tarkatan can only punish the untechable throw with D3, or how he can low crush my snag with F33, or how I can't punish F33 period and it becomes a true 50/50 with the untechable throw. So my only punish can ever be is a D3 on one of his options, once cornered. Once i'm conditioned to that 50/50, he can take a risk and B2 me.

Anti airing Sub's jump 1 is also so difficult as Alien, unless you armor. Both characters have a fucked up 6 frame jump in, which is practically the only way that they hit each other out of the air, outside of armor. Trip guarding with Alien is also balls due to his meh walk speed, so you often just have to hold Sub's jump ins.

If as many people played Tarkatan as Sub Zero, it'd be seen as a clean 6-4. Tarkatan has easier matches(HQT, War God, less relevant variations). We gotta start pegging D'vorah and Takeda as 8-2s, if Tarkatan is a 7-3.
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Oh but I must agree... the SZ match up for Alien is such a drag CLEAR 8-2:DOGE
#buffAlien4Tweedy
 
C

Colest

Mid-Tier 'Mancer Main
Tweedy said:
How about how Tarkatan can only punish the untechable throw with D3, or how he can low crush my snag with F33, or how I can't punish F33 period and it becomes a true 50/50 with the untechable throw. So my only punish can ever be is a D3 on one of his options, once cornered. Once i'm conditioned to that 50/50, he can take a risk and B2 me.

Anti airing Sub's jump 1 is also so difficult as Alien, unless you armor. Both characters have a fucked up 6 frame jump in, which is practically the only way that they hit each other out of the air, outside of armor. Trip guarding with Alien is also balls due to his meh walk speed, so you often just have to hold Sub's jump ins.

If as many people played Tarkatan as Sub Zero, it'd be seen as a clean 6-4. Tarkatan has easier matches(HQT, War God, less relevant variations). We gotta start pegging D'vorah and Takeda as 8-2s, if Tarkatan is a 7-3.
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Fuck off.
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Hey guys, in the Reptile matchup when you have him cornered, do you also use D4 to break armor after a F12 ender because B2 isn't fast enough for EX slide. It works great, im just wondering if there is a better option im not taking advantage of properly.
 
Tweedy

Tweedy

Champion
I mean i'm right. It doesn't matter how many people who don't know the match say that i'm a downplayer, or "fuck off". The match is definitely only 6-4.
 
Tweedy

Tweedy

Champion
Dankster Morgan said:
I think D'Vorah might be 8-2. She shuts down everything. I think Tarkatan is a 7-3. It doesn't feel like any of Sub's 4-6s(think Stunt Double Cage). You should never be put in the corner. Yes the corner is abysmal for Alien, there is no way around that. Sub has corner carry so he does a combo and puts him there. But he can't re-clone after a slide ender so he has to guess right on Alien's wakeup. So to get him in the corner Sub has to guess right at least twice... Which sucks ass lol.
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That's literally every match up on MKX for anyone. Having to make a read, or guess, on someone's wake up, is better than being the person that's on the ground and having to armor or block. Using meter, vs not using meter, throws the risk/reward in the favor of the guy on offense, especially since Alien's armor is not safe.

Sub Zero's predicament once he knocks down Alien with a slide, is no different than Alien's when he knocks down Sub, ever. The only difference is that once Sub gets a F12 ender, it's party time.

This is so beyond frustrating. People in Pig's chat the other night were telling me that Tarkatan Alien beats Goro lmfaoooo. People don't play the character, want to hate on him because he's top tier, and just throw around their shitty opinions.

I know you're more informed than the "fuck off" guy, but this whole Tarkatan 7-3ing Sub business is getting real old.

Edit: I know people know me as the Alien guy, right, but I've played Kotal, Lao and Scorpion for most of the game's life. I know what good and bad matches feel like with characters that people believe to be normal(even though Alien is a normal top character). There's no way that this is any worse than 6-4 for Sub, with the close klone tech.
 
youthinkyoubadyouaintbad

youthinkyoubadyouaintbad

Apprentice
Tweedy said:
That's literally every match up on MKX for anyone. Having to make a read, or guess, on someone's wake up, is better than being the person that's on the ground and having to armor or block. Using meter, vs not using meter, throws the risk/reward in the favor of the guy on offense, especially since Alien's armor is not safe.

Sub Zero's predicament once he knocks down Alien with a slide, is no different than Alien's when he knocks down Sub, ever. The only difference is that once Sub gets a F12 ender, it's party time.

This is so beyond frustrating. People in Pig's chat the other night were telling me that Tarkatan Alien beats Goro lmfaoooo. People don't play the character, want to hate on him because he's top tier, and just throw around their shitty opinions.

I know you're more informed than the "fuck off" guy, but this whole Tarkatan 7-3ing Sub business is getting real old.

Edit: I know people know me as the Alien guy, right, but I've played Kotal, Lao and Scorpion for most of the game's life. I know what good and bad matches feel like with characters that people believe to be normal(even though Alien is a normal top character). There's no way that this is any worse than 6-4 for Sub, with the close klone tech.
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Tarkatan does beat Goro though. He beats Sub-Zero too. Big time.
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Tweedy said:
That's literally every match up on MKX for anyone. Having to make a read, or guess, on someone's wake up, is better than being the person that's on the ground and having to armor or block. Using meter, vs not using meter, throws the risk/reward in the favor of the guy on offense, especially since Alien's armor is not safe.

Sub Zero's predicament once he knocks down Alien with a slide, is no different than Alien's when he knocks down Sub, ever. The only difference is that once Sub gets a F12 ender, it's party time.

This is so beyond frustrating. People in Pig's chat the other night were telling me that Tarkatan Alien beats Goro lmfaoooo. People don't play the character, want to hate on him because he's top tier, and just throw around their shitty opinions.

I know you're more informed than the "fuck off" guy, but this whole Tarkatan 7-3ing Sub business is getting real old.

Edit: I know people know me as the Alien guy, right, but I've played Kotal, Lao and Scorpion for most of the game's life. I know what good and bad matches feel like with characters that people believe to be normal(even though Alien is a normal top character). There's no way that this is any worse than 6-4 for Sub, with the close klone tech.
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I disagree. Iv given my two cents so I'll just agree to disagree.
 
Tweedy

Tweedy

Champion
Aye boys.

What if I told you some character has a 33/33/33 launcher on Alien guys.

What if I told you that Alien's only working armor in that situation gets low crushed or broken/frozen, besides his very low risk/reward db1.

What if I told you that only one of the mix ups out of the 33/33/33 is punishable, one doesn't even grant you a turn if blocked.

What if I told you that this situation took one reversal slide and one right decision, or one hit and one right decision, at any point in the match?

What if I told you that snag and B3 aren't guaranteed unless you klone right in front of him like you have no match up awareness at all?

What if I told you that without armor, Alien has just as much trouble anti airing said character, as said character has anti airing him?

What if I told you, that this character has one of the only jump normals in the game that can trade and beat Alien's jump 2? The players of the character don't use it, though.

What if I told you that said character can punish everything outside of a 7% overhead flip that leaves Alien at -7? One reversal throw at -7, corner city, one confirmed B12 because you suspected a throw duck, corner city.

Nah, it's 7-3. The people who don't have Alien unlocked say so.
 
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