What's new

Sub-Zero General Discussion Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
Personal opinion on the Grandmaster

He's easy to pick up, probably best suited for beginners to intermediate players. His strings are easy to execute and understand.

Standard strings into Ice Ball (hits HIGH):
~ 1,2 (HIGH, 8 Startup, short range but fastest)
~ Back+1,4 (HIGH, 14 Startup, slightly longer reach, main string)
~ Back+2 (MID, 14 Startup, Knocks Up but Heavy Scaling)
~ Back+3,2 (LOW, 13 Startup)

Standard strings into Rising Ice (hits MID btw in case people are wondering) at Midscreen:
~ 2,1 (HIGH, 8 Startup)

Opponent blocks HIGH? Use Back+3,2 (Hits LOW) into Ice Ball
Opponent blocks LOW? Use Front+2,4 (Hits OVERHEAD) into a knockdown. Or you can Front+2 into Amplified Rising Ice / Amplified Ice Ball for a 1 Meter kombo (Note: Front+2 cannot combo into a regular Ice Ball, unless Front+2 Kounters the opponent)

Using his base special moves alone, DMG for his kombos usually range between 20~30% for 1 meter, 30~35% for 2 meters, and hitting about 35~40% if there is a krushing blow.

Sub-Zero has 5 KBs, notable ones include 1,2,4 with a Kombo of at least 8 hits, and another from hitting 3 Amplified Slides. Another two of them are based on kountering or punishing the opponent (Down+2 Uppercut, the overhead string which is Front+2,4) and the last one is the Back Throw, if opponent fails to escape a throw previously. Not including the uppercut, none of his other Krushing Blows launches the opponent into the air.

Damage-wise, he unfortunately seems to be at the lower end, if you compare to other characters such as Liu Kang, Kung Lao and Jacqui just to name a few, who are notably faster and also hits harder. The DMG of a few of their meterless combos can even kontest Sub-Zero's 1 meter Kombos.

Also, Sub-Zero has a limited skill cap and little variety of strings and battle approaches. Sub-Zero's strings all hit MID aside from the first hit of every kombo (eg. his overhead string hits OVERHEAD, MID, MID), so once the opponent successfully blocks a Sub-Zero kombo, he or she does not have to worry about alternating between standing and crouching blocks, as opposed to more diverse attacking characters such as Scorpion, who although does not hit that hard as well, is fast and has a wide range of ways to engage the opponent. He can combo into an OVERHEAD or even a LOW normal move from his strings, making Scorpion a dangerous foe.

Sub-Zero on the other hand, is not fast at all compared to the others, does not hit that hard and only has 2 base abilities, not to mention having less-than-ideal tournament variations (if they are confirmed and fixed). Hence, I would understand people's frustrstions regarding him.

Abilities-wise, given Sub-Zero's basic & one-dimensional gameplay, one must have Rising Ice for Kombos, & Creeping Ice for LOW mix-ups. The last ability slot boils down to preference, and I personally would include a zoning tool (Death-cicle or Polar Axe, Frigid Storm is a no-go and a joke tbh). This will make Sub-Zero hit harder and more unpredictable to opponents. An interesting ability will be Arctic Trap, looking forward to experiment with it.

Is Sub-Zero the best character in MK11? By the looks of it, definitely not. Will I main him? Definitely! Don't get me wrong, I love Sub-Zero, and will play as him no matter what. But yeah, he deals okay damage and has few strings with limited effectiveness, thus making other characters more appealing. While he is pretty easy to learn, this make him easy to kounter as well, especially by opponents/experts who know Sub-Zero's gameplay. Also, his best special moves are unfortunately categorised as abilities. Hopefully his tournament variations are updated. Personally right now I will go for the variation with the 2+1 zoning tools (Frigid Storm is pretty bad, even slow startup and does little damage. I wont even acknowledge it). Casual gameplay wise, he will most definitely not to be underestimated. He IS the Grandmaster after all. Cheers!
 

Saviorself

Noob Saibot
Personal opinion on the Grandmaster

He's easy to pick up, probably best suited for beginners to intermediate players. His strings are easy to execute and understand.

Standard strings into Ice Ball (hits HIGH):
~ 1,2 (HIGH, 8 Startup, short range but fastest)
~ Back+1,4 (HIGH, 14 Startup, slightly longer reach, main string)
~ Back+2 (MID, 14 Startup, Knocks Up but Heavy Scaling)
~ Back+3,2 (LOW, 13 Startup)

Standard strings into Rising Ice (hits MID btw in case people are wondering) at Midscreen:
~ 2,1 (HIGH, 8 Startup)

Opponent blocks HIGH? Use Back+3,2 (Hits LOW) into Ice Ball
Opponent blocks LOW? Use Front+2,4 (Hits OVERHEAD) into a knockdown. Or you can Front+2 into Amplified Rising Ice / Amplified Ice Ball for a 1 Meter kombo (Note: Front+2 cannot combo into a regular Ice Ball, unless Front+2 Kounters the opponent)

Using his base special moves alone, DMG for his kombos usually range between 20~30% for 1 meter, 30~35% for 2 meters, and hitting about 35~40% if there is a krushing blow.

Sub-Zero has 5 KBs, notable ones include 1,2,4 with a Kombo of at least 8 hits, and another from hitting 3 Amplified Slides. Another two of them are based on kountering or punishing the opponent (Down+2 Uppercut, the overhead string which is Front+2,4) and the last one is the Back Throw, if opponent fails to escape a throw previously. Not including the uppercut, none of his other Krushing Blows launches the opponent into the air.

Damage-wise, he unfortunately seems to be at the lower end, if you compare to other characters such as Liu Kang, Kung Lao and Jacqui just to name a few, who are notably faster and also hits harder. The DMG of a few of their meterless combos can even kontest Sub-Zero's 1 meter Kombos.

Also, Sub-Zero has a limited skill cap and little variety of strings and battle approaches. Sub-Zero's strings all hit MID aside from the first hit of every kombo (eg. his overhead string hits OVERHEAD, MID, MID), so once the opponent successfully blocks a Sub-Zero kombo, he or she does not have to worry about alternating between standing and crouching blocks, as opposed to more diverse attacking characters such as Scorpion, who although does not hit that hard as well, is fast and has a wide range of ways to engage the opponent. He can combo into an OVERHEAD or even a LOW normal move from his strings, making Scorpion a dangerous foe.

Sub-Zero on the other hand, is not fast at all compared to the others, does not hit that hard and only has 2 base abilities, not to mention having less-than-ideal tournament variations (if they are confirmed and fixed). Hence, I would understand people's frustrstions regarding him.

Abilities-wise, given Sub-Zero's basic & one-dimensional gameplay, one must have Rising Ice for Kombos, & Creeping Ice for LOW mix-ups. The last ability slot boils down to preference, and I personally would include a zoning tool (Death-cicle or Polar Axe, Frigid Storm is a no-go and a joke tbh). This will make Sub-Zero hit harder and more unpredictable to opponents. An interesting ability will be Arctic Trap, looking forward to experiment with it.

Is Sub-Zero the best character in MK11? By the looks of it, definitely not. Will I main him? Definitely! Don't get me wrong, I love Sub-Zero, and will play as him no matter what. But yeah, he deals okay damage and has few strings with limited effectiveness, thus making other characters more appealing. While he is pretty easy to learn, this make him easy to kounter as well, especially by opponents/experts who know Sub-Zero's gameplay. Also, his best special moves are unfortunately categorised as abilities. Hopefully his tournament variations are updated. Personally right now I will go for the variation with the 2+1 zoning tools (Frigid Storm is pretty bad, even slow startup and does little damage. I wont even acknowledge it). Casual gameplay wise, he will most definitely not to be underestimated. He IS the Grandmaster after all. Cheers!
can you poke out of frigid storm is sub does it in his block string?

its -8 or so on block and dafer the further the distance, it may be a great blockstring ender
 

LinKueiBrazilianAssassin

Character loyalist
Personal opinion on the Grandmaster

He's easy to pick up, probably best suited for beginners to intermediate players. His strings are easy to execute and understand.

Standard strings into Ice Ball (hits HIGH):
~ 1,2 (HIGH, 8 Startup, short range but fastest)
~ Back+1,4 (HIGH, 14 Startup, slightly longer reach, main string)
~ Back+2 (MID, 14 Startup, Knocks Up but Heavy Scaling)
~ Back+3,2 (LOW, 13 Startup)

Standard strings into Rising Ice (hits MID btw in case people are wondering) at Midscreen:
~ 2,1 (HIGH, 8 Startup)

Opponent blocks HIGH? Use Back+3,2 (Hits LOW) into Ice Ball
Opponent blocks LOW? Use Front+2,4 (Hits OVERHEAD) into a knockdown. Or you can Front+2 into Amplified Rising Ice / Amplified Ice Ball for a 1 Meter kombo (Note: Front+2 cannot combo into a regular Ice Ball, unless Front+2 Kounters the opponent)

Using his base special moves alone, DMG for his kombos usually range between 20~30% for 1 meter, 30~35% for 2 meters, and hitting about 35~40% if there is a krushing blow.

Sub-Zero has 5 KBs, notable ones include 1,2,4 with a Kombo of at least 8 hits, and another from hitting 3 Amplified Slides. Another two of them are based on kountering or punishing the opponent (Down+2 Uppercut, the overhead string which is Front+2,4) and the last one is the Back Throw, if opponent fails to escape a throw previously. Not including the uppercut, none of his other Krushing Blows launches the opponent into the air.

Damage-wise, he unfortunately seems to be at the lower end, if you compare to other characters such as Liu Kang, Kung Lao and Jacqui just to name a few, who are notably faster and also hits harder. The DMG of a few of their meterless combos can even kontest Sub-Zero's 1 meter Kombos.

Also, Sub-Zero has a limited skill cap and little variety of strings and battle approaches. Sub-Zero's strings all hit MID aside from the first hit of every kombo (eg. his overhead string hits OVERHEAD, MID, MID), so once the opponent successfully blocks a Sub-Zero kombo, he or she does not have to worry about alternating between standing and crouching blocks, as opposed to more diverse attacking characters such as Scorpion, who although does not hit that hard as well, is fast and has a wide range of ways to engage the opponent. He can combo into an OVERHEAD or even a LOW normal move from his strings, making Scorpion a dangerous foe.

Sub-Zero on the other hand, is not fast at all compared to the others, does not hit that hard and only has 2 base abilities, not to mention having less-than-ideal tournament variations (if they are confirmed and fixed). Hence, I would understand people's frustrstions regarding him.

Abilities-wise, given Sub-Zero's basic & one-dimensional gameplay, one must have Rising Ice for Kombos, & Creeping Ice for LOW mix-ups. The last ability slot boils down to preference, and I personally would include a zoning tool (Death-cicle or Polar Axe, Frigid Storm is a no-go and a joke tbh). This will make Sub-Zero hit harder and more unpredictable to opponents. An interesting ability will be Arctic Trap, looking forward to experiment with it.

Is Sub-Zero the best character in MK11? By the looks of it, definitely not. Will I main him? Definitely! Don't get me wrong, I love Sub-Zero, and will play as him no matter what. But yeah, he deals okay damage and has few strings with limited effectiveness, thus making other characters more appealing. While he is pretty easy to learn, this make him easy to kounter as well, especially by opponents/experts who know Sub-Zero's gameplay. Also, his best special moves are unfortunately categorised as abilities. Hopefully his tournament variations are updated. Personally right now I will go for the variation with the 2+1 zoning tools (Frigid Storm is pretty bad, even slow startup and does little damage. I wont even acknowledge it). Casual gameplay wise, he will most definitely not to be underestimated. He IS the Grandmaster after all. Cheers!
are you safe after b143 xx barrage? mid/corner
 
can you poke out of frigid storm is sub does it in his block string?

its -8 or so on block and dafer the further the distance, it may be a great blockstring ender
On paper, it may be -8 on block, but it has a hefty 36 startup (so does Death-cicle). Therefore, it will not be wise to end any blockstring with either of them, as the opponent will have ample time to punish you up close with pretty much anything while you are busy casting the special move. You will not even get to execute the special move and give your opponent free DMG.

Block DMG wise, why would you want to use Frigid Storm? It deals very low Chip DMG anyway. Death-cicle will be a more viable option for Chip DMG, but try not to use it at the end of any blockstring. Death-cicle causes Sub-Zero to step back slightly as well to create space, hence use it pre-emptively if you predict the opponent is attempting to gap close from full screen or mid-screen, or just a chipping tool for a total of 6.5% DMG from a safe distance (eg Death-cicle from mid-screen into an opponent in the corner).

Even when your kombo strings do hit, neither Frigid Storm nor Death-cicle are able to kombo into it (at least based on what I have tried for Death-cicle, nothing kombos into it so far). You are better off ending kombos safely with a Slide / Amplified Slide / Amplified Creeping Ice from solid DMG, or Amplified Rising Ice for an extended kombo from 2,1.
 
are you safe after b143 xx barrage? mid/corner
With mention to my post to a previous user above.

If b143 is blocked and you Barrage, your opponent is able to punish you easily, if he or she manages to react and strike you while you are busy casting Barrage, usually with a normal move or special move that has a slightly longer reach.

If b143 hits and you Barrage, your opponent will be knocked down by the time you complete the startup duration, both midscreen and corner, so its a waste. You are better off finishing kombos with a Special Move that is not a zoning tool.
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Ok so today I've warmed up a bit for him. Well spaced b1 is actually pretty nice since no one just randomly pokes at that distance so being a high doesnt matter much there. I've followed @UsedForGlue's advice and I'm integrating f4 more in my game and also labbed b21 and it looks like a pretty nice stagger since the gap isn't big enough to be poked.

Spacing b1 xx icicles seems to be good because at that distance I doubt it's punishable by many.

Just wanted to mention this since I've been shitting on him a lot for the last couple of days lol.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Ok so today I've warmed up a bit for him. Well spaced b1 is actually pretty nice since no one just randomly pokes at that distance so being a high doesnt matter much there. I've followed @UsedForGlue's advice and I'm integrating f4 more in my game and also labbed b21 and it looks like a pretty nice stagger since the gap isn't big enough to be poked.

Spacing b1 xx icicles seems to be good because at that distance I doubt it's punishable by many.

Just wanted to mention this since I've been shitting on him a lot for the last couple of days lol.
I’m still cautiously optimistic to try him
 
Neekogaming - Here is a link showcasing some of Sub-Zero's essential kombo strings and a glimpse of his damage potential. (Vanilla Sub-Zero with Deep Freeze equipped) Damage shown is not that spectacular due to the absence of Rising Ice, as well as big DMG scaling due to his Ice Ball (this applies to his Ground Ice & Arctic Trap as well). A good thing to note is that w/o equipping any abilities, Sub-Zero can only do 1 meter Kombos, as he can only amplify his Slide at the end of every Kombo.

Here is a stream by one of the more prominent Sub-Zero players (sikander555) in MK11 right now who had the game early, and showcases great Sub-Zero gameplay and the huge extent of his fighting capability & kreative ability kombinations, aka Arctic Trap + Rising Ice. Made a few opponents Quitality with this variation :)

The 2nd link will show why Rising Ice is a must-have ability (Kombo extensions for higher DMG + Able to execute 2 meter Kombos, Able to kombo from overhead Front+2 with Amplified Rising Ice). Deep Freeze has the same utility as well, but I will take Rising Ice over it any day if the main purpose is to extend Kombos / kombo into Front+2 / others.
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Lads, I know his variations don't make sense from just looking at them, but, he's very easy intuitive and has a lot of good things at his disposal.

I actually think he's really good. I think everyone is shitting on him far too early, and I honestly think thats because nobody can categorise him straight away.

I would like to hear from people that think he is bad, and I want them to tell me what his design is, or what they think he should do, and then maybe I can start to understand what exactly is so bad about him.
 
Last edited:

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
s1 got nerfed :(
I can no longer do the quick jabs combo in the corner for that 124 KB. I can just get like 3 jabs now.
 

Samsara

Resident Cynic
Hey guys it looks like Cold Shoulder no longer conflicts with Slide!

I seriously need to start blabbing some new damage options for Dead of winter.
 

Samsara

Resident Cynic
Hold on. It says Cold Shoulder has no conflicts. But I still dont have access to Slide in the move list.

Holy shit Cold Shoulder is SO slow. Why would I ever give up slide for this?
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
No conflicts means something else. Look at the description it says "replaces slide".

I'm in training mode with that variation right now its still mega sad and I'm not touching it
 
Status
Not open for further replies.