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Sub-Zero General Discussion Thread

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Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
his variations are so fucking shit.

I mean holy shit. They simply slapped this shit together. There is no way they put any thought into this. They had no time left and were under pressure.
I honestly think they're really thought out man..... (don't kill me)

I'm thinking about having Sub as a secondary now because I think he looks really strong with these two variations.

Dead of Winter:

The first one is for anti-zoning because Deep Freeze goes through projectiles and leads to a full combo. The problem with this move before was that Slide does such little damage that from 3/4screen to full screen all you would get from the Deep Freeze was a slap on the wrist. Cold Shoulder makes it so you could get a beefy 20% if you Deep Freeze from anywhere to punish zoning.

In general, Slide will be used to slide under projectiles with slow startup on reaction. That is why it only does about 6% damage. It's an extremely powerful tool and it works almost like Sub's "teleport" when he sees a projectile. With Deep Freeze going through projectiles, he doesn't neccesarily need the Slide anymore so it fits.

Of course too, Deep Freeze could be used to extend combos too.

Thin Ice:

This one is his space control variation.

He gets a mid projectile, a way to make his strings safe and retreat, and a downward air projectile (and we saw how good those were in the beta).

I honestly think this variation is EXTREMELY EXTREMELY good. While it doesn't have good damage because of the lack of a combo extender, it makes up for it with the ability to play a great neutral game that the opponent will have to really try to break open.

Any matchup where Sub isn't getting zoned out heavily, he could use this variation because it leaves him safer and more effective from more ranges.

==========================================

It might not be what you wanted, but really try to look at the reasoning behind the decisions.

I honestly think you might be surprised how good Sub Zero will be on launch day with these compared to what everyone else got.

It generally seems like everyone got one variation to deal with strong zoning and another variation to execute a strong strategy but might suffer against strong zoning.
 

Samsara

Time is a flat circle
Royal Contributor
I honestly think they're really thought out man..... (don't kill me)

I'm thinking about having Sub as a secondary now because I think he looks really strong with these two variations.

Dead of Winter:

The first one is for anti-zoning because Deep Freeze goes through projectiles and leads to a full combo. The problem with this move before was that Slide does such little damage that from 3/4screen to full screen all you would get from the Deep Freeze was a slap on the wrist. Cold Shoulder makes it so you could get a beefy 20% if you Deep Freeze from anywhere to punish zoning.

In general, Slide will be used to slide under projectiles with slow startup on reaction. That is why it only does about 6% damage. It's an extremely powerful tool and it works almost like Sub's "teleport" when he sees a projectile. With Deep Freeze going through projectiles, he doesn't neccesarily need the Slide anymore so it fits.

Of course too, Deep Freeze could be used to extend combos too.

Thin Ice:

This one is his space control variation.

He gets a mid projectile, a way to make his strings safe and retreat, and a downward air projectile (and we saw how good those were in the beta).

I honestly think this variation is EXTREMELY EXTREMELY good. While it doesn't have good damage because of the lack of a combo extender, it makes up for it with the ability to play a great neutral game that the opponent will have to really try to break open.

Any matchup where Sub isn't getting zoned out heavily, he could use this variation because it leaves him safer and more effective from more ranges.

==========================================

It might not be what you wanted, but really try to look at the reasoning behind the decisions.

I honestly think you might be surprised how good Sub Zero will be on launch day with these compared to what everyone else got.

It generally seems like everyone got one variation to deal with strong zoning and another variation to execute a strong strategy but might suffer against strong zoning.
This ignores the fact that they game doesn't boil down to just Zoning/vs not zoning. This simple binary metric is what makes it feel so thin in the first place.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Premium Supporter
Not only that, but literally the two coolest (lol) moves he has that add flair to him (and let's face it, he needs it in this game cause he seems very boring style/visual wise when it comes to moves) kreeping ice and rising ice are not present.

I also wanted to fuck around with potential ice puddle setups cause I loved that shit in MK9... annnnnd... can't do that either.

Fuck these variations. Sorry @Circus but I am NOT a fan of these.

Thin Ice definitely looks like the stronger one and keep away is how I play, so that's what I'll have to default to, but man, these are really lackluster.
 
I don't go to tourneys so there's no loss for me there, but at this rate I don't want to even play ranked mode at all. These variations, if final, are so poorly thrown together that it's killed all my hype. There's no obvious synergy to them, and they are missing the most significant moves on most character.
I honestly think they're really thought out man..... (don't kill me)

I'm thinking about having Sub as a secondary now because I think he looks really strong with these two variations.

Dead of Winter:

The first one is for anti-zoning because Deep Freeze goes through projectiles and leads to a full combo. The problem with this move before was that Slide does such little damage that from 3/4screen to full screen all you would get from the Deep Freeze was a slap on the wrist. Cold Shoulder makes it so you could get a beefy 20% if you Deep Freeze from anywhere to punish zoning.

In general, Slide will be used to slide under projectiles with slow startup on reaction. That is why it only does about 6% damage. It's an extremely powerful tool and it works almost like Sub's "teleport" when he sees a projectile. With Deep Freeze going through projectiles, he doesn't neccesarily need the Slide anymore so it fits.

Of course too, Deep Freeze could be used to extend combos too.

Thin Ice:

This one is his space control variation.

He gets a mid projectile, a way to make his strings safe and retreat, and a downward air projectile (and we saw how good those were in the beta).

I honestly think this variation is EXTREMELY EXTREMELY good. While it doesn't have good damage because of the lack of a combo extender, it makes up for it with the ability to play a great neutral game that the opponent will have to really try to break open.

Any matchup where Sub isn't getting zoned out heavily, he could use this variation because it leaves him safer and more effective from more ranges.

==========================================

It might not be what you wanted, but really try to look at the reasoning behind the decisions.

I honestly think you might be surprised how good Sub Zero will be on launch day with these compared to what everyone else got.

It generally seems like everyone got one variation to deal with strong zoning and another variation to execute a strong strategy but might suffer against strong zoning.
The viability of Thin Ice depends greatly on the frame data. In all of the builds we've seen, his retreating cicle barrage has been -20 something and full combo punishable. You're looking at something like a Baraka f4xxGutted every time you throw that out.
 

Endeavor

I'll live a villain, before I die a hero.
Premium Supporter
So I saw some screen shots on Twitter of his tournament variations and it’s Kinda bad man....so I’m asking the variations are they the same as these two? Cause if so they are wack
1390913910
 

Endeavor

I'll live a villain, before I die a hero.
Premium Supporter
The second variation was soooo bad that they outright didn’t even give him a third move...wow NRS, wow.
 

smaddy

Noob
Those are not correct. There was a patch to the game that changed many of the variations for competitive/tournament play. Sub-Zero's are still crappy unfortunately, but are now:

Sub-Zero
Dead of Winter: Cold Shoulder, Deep Freeze (2)
Thin Ice: Frigid Storm, Death-Cicle Barrage, (Air) Polar Axe
 

Samsara

Time is a flat circle
Royal Contributor
Creeping Ice, puddle, neo ice-clone were the moves I wanted to explore the most. Was wondering how the new ice clone would be viable competitively. Guess we'll have to wait 6+ months to find out when more variations get added.
 

smaddy

Noob
Creeping Ice, puddle, neo ice-clone were the moves I wanted to explore the most. Was wondering how the new ice clone would be viable competitively. Guess we'll have to wait 6+ months to find out when more variations get added.
I was bummed that rising ice wasn't in a variation.
 

Imperium

Noob
Yeah these variations are awful, but especially awful for Subzero. I don't think NRS put any thought into them.

I'll just stick to casuals tbh, none of these look fun or good.
 

Endeavor

I'll live a villain, before I die a hero.
Premium Supporter
Rising Ice is not in a variation....holy shit they actually don’t want people to play him. And on top of everything you still have a variation when Deep freeze take up two fucking slots NRS PLS!!!! Fucking why?!!!!
 
I’ll roll with DoW and try to damage heavy with the shoulder. Although it looks like casuals it is so I can actually use some cool specials like ground ice and puddle
 

Samsara

Time is a flat circle
Royal Contributor
Rising Ice is not in a variation....holy shit they actually don’t want people to play him. And on top of everything you still have a variation when Deep freeze take up two fucking slots NRS PLS!!!! Fucking why?!!!!
The fact that meterburn ice ball is 2 slots is stupid. It functions the exact same as it has in MKX. What it is about meterburn ice ball that justifies it not being a universal feature to begin with?
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Premium Supporter
Creeping Ice, puddle, neo ice-clone were the moves I wanted to explore the most. Was wondering how the new ice clone would be viable competitively. Guess we'll have to wait 6+ months to find out when more variations get added.
Same here man.

And throw in Rising ice as well.

Literally 4 interesting moves left out.
 
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Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
It's low-key upsetting going into this thread and seeing everyone complaining instead of talking about possibilities with his variations....

===========================================================

Thin Ice:

With the combo of the sickle-barrage, the mid projectile, and the downward air projectile I actually think he's going to be REALLY strong. It's still up in the air how negative on block sickle barrage is, but it does space you out far enough that stuff like Baraka's F4 won't reach imo. Also in the beta it was pretty clear that downward air projectiles end up being some of the best zoning tools in the game.

Lets not forget that his regular slide goes under high projectiles too. He could use it on reaction to any slow'ish startup projectiles (18-25frames). This means he'll be able to zone out the opponent without them being able to zone him out unless their zoning is fucking phenomenal.


Thin Ice Sub IMO has the potential to be as strong defensively as Grandmaster Subzero was in MKX. I really believe that.

The other, more offensive, variation is really good too though. If someone does have a super strong zoning game he won't be shit-outta-luck. Deep Freeze nullifies other projectiles and leads into full combo so it's going to be a hard time zoning him out unless played very well.
 
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IceNine

Tired, But Strong
An angle I'm not sure people've mentioned when it comes to the Cold Shoulder is that unlike slide, Amplified Shoulder keeps the corner. I think this can be pretty valuable for Subby's "offensive" variation as a character who retains the ability to get 50/50 confirms, allowing him to juice up the ender's damage a bit without sacrificing positioning. I definitely don't feel that the variation's abilities were slapped together haphazardly, there was definitely an idea here.
 

Samsara

Time is a flat circle
Royal Contributor
So basically a zoning variation and a straightforward offense variation.

Out of all the options. No trap/mixup variant at all. Boring. They played it way too safe.

My issue isnt that he's bad, it's that he's not fun. I dont understand why you guys are talking like we said he was bottom tier.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Sorry, bois, but, unless they finalize them, we won't know yet. IMO, they did the INJ2 mistake again. They never learned their lesson, I'm afraid. Everyone at competitive scenery is so mad furious about this. Everyone wants the kustom variations, yet NRS fucked us right at the morning.

NRS, I know that you guys read this. Stop with the preset variations. The INJ2 and MKX ideas were terrible. Just showing those variations from each character, including Sub Zero, means that you wanted to merge your failed ideas altogether. Let us choose the abilities WE want. What you added are the worst and UNBALANCED.

If you want us to play Sub Zero, make him VIABLE against the whole roster. We don't mind the other characters to be VIABLE to the whole roster. We want certain abilities that help us against certain characters. Add one variation for against the zoners, and one for against the rushdown characters. Not make these variations THIS shitty.
 
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